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triggrman 10-27-2003 04:39 AM

Vokoun
 
Vokoun seems to be struggling a little he has a 2.36 gaa and only a .917 save percent. Now I know alot of you are going to say, "look at the defense in front of him" but if you look around there are a lot of goalies putting up better stats facing more shots than Vokoun. I've already posted how I feel he played against Colorado, and I don't think he played his best game against Atlanta. Maybe he's just not found his groove yet, I don't know, what do you think?

Enoch 10-27-2003 07:14 AM

Those aren't 'that bad' of stats. Look at Salo in Edmonton *shudders* thats bad. I think this year we will need about 20 games or so before Vokoun gets in the zone he was in last year and our team starts to perform at the level it is capable of.

PredDave 10-27-2003 08:28 AM

I wouldn't start to panic until his save percentage is below .900 and his GAA is in the 2.75 to 3.00 range. I think Vokoun has been doing a fine job. We've just not been able to finish our offensive chances.

SmokeyClause 10-27-2003 12:50 PM

Vokoun didn't play bad against either Atlanto or Colorado. The Kovalchuk shots were unsaveable. Kovalchuk makes the net a couple of inches wider because he can use the posts to score. Most players can't. No one saves either of Kovalchuk's shots unless they cheated badly to their left. And then, Kovalchuk would just go backhand and put it glove side on Vokie.

The goals in Colorado, atleast the two I had a great angle on, were not going to be saved either. Hejduk is a sniper and has a wonderful shot. Gloveside high is hard to save when it's shot right. He shot them right. I don't think Vokoun played particulary poor in either. Would it have been nice if he would have saved Hammy's bacon against Atl? Yes, would it have been nice if he would have stoned Hejduk? Yes, but to expect him to do it is not really fair.

triggrman 10-27-2003 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
Vokoun didn't play bad against either Atlanto or Colorado. The Kovalchuk shots were unsaveable. Kovalchuk makes the net a couple of inches wider because he can use the posts to score. Most players can't. No one saves either of Kovalchuk's shots unless they cheated badly to their left. And then, Kovalchuk would just go backhand and put it glove side on Vokie.

The goals in Colorado, atleast the two I had a great angle on, were not going to be saved either. Hejduk is a sniper and has a wonderful shot. Gloveside high is hard to save when it's shot right. He shot them right. I don't think Vokoun played particulary poor in either. Would it have been nice if he would have saved Hammy's bacon against Atl? Yes, would it have been nice if he would have stoned Hejduk? Yes, but to expect him to do it is not really fair.

That wrap around in the Atlanta game was a joke, as was Forsberg's goal, take away both goals and what happens.

Enoch 10-27-2003 02:18 PM

Your kidding me. All of us in the stands just stared in bewidlerment when Forsberg scored his goal. I raised my hands in frustation. The guy deked 2/3 defensemen shot it, there was a scramble, and then he got the puck back and fired another shot. Vokoun, if he even saw it, had litle chance to stop the puck. THe goal was a result of a direct breakdown on the defense and a testament to Forsberg's talent.

SmokeyClause 10-27-2003 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by triggrman
That wrap around in the Atlanta game was a joke, as was Forsberg's goal, take away both goals and what happens.

I agree on the wraparound. Vokoun should have had that one. He could have made the Forsberg backhand as well. But it's Forsberg.

triggrman 10-27-2003 02:27 PM

a weak goal is a weak goal, not matter who is shooting it. Forsberg was laughing after the goal he knew Vokoun should have had it.

SmokeyClause 10-27-2003 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by triggrman
a weak goal is a weak goal, not matter who is shooting it. Forsberg was laughing after the goal he knew Vokoun should have had it.

I doubt that is why he's laughing. It could have been saved. But don't be foolish. The blame doesn't lie on Vokie here. The blame lies on the team. The same team who rolled over and played dead after the Blake hit. The same team who went from Pimp to ***** after AJ went down. We got walked on by a soft team. Vokoun had little to do with that. And don't give me this whole, if Vokie doesn't let that goal in we go to OT crap. If they don't have a 3 goal lead, Colorado doesn't fall asleep at the wheel and allow Hall to dance open in the middle.

The 'it's forsberg' comment has alot to do with Forsberg's wonderful ability. Just because it's a backhand doesn't mean it's easy to save.

triggrman 10-27-2003 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch
Your kidding me. All of us in the stands just stared in bewidlerment when Forsberg scored his goal. I raised my hands in frustation. The guy deked 2/3 defensemen shot it, there was a scramble, and then he got the puck back and fired another shot. Vokoun, if he even saw it, had litle chance to stop the puck. THe goal was a result of a direct breakdown on the defense and a testament to Forsberg's talent.

wtf are you talking about? There was no scramble, no rebound. He did go around the defenseman but he didn't get much wood on the weak backhand. It looked like he was stuck between trying to take it to his forehand but instead just pushed it in with the toe of the blade. You need to go watch the highlights again.

triggrman 10-27-2003 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
I doubt that is why he's laughing. It could have been saved. But don't be foolish. The blame doesn't lie on Vokie here. The blame lies on the team. The same team who rolled over and played dead after the Blake hit. The same team who went from Pimp to ***** after AJ went down. We got walked on by a soft team. Vokoun had little to do with that. And don't give me this whole, if Vokie doesn't let that goal in we go to OT crap. If they don't have a 3 goal lead, Colorado doesn't fall asleep at the wheel and allow Hall to dance open in the middle.

No one said I soley blame Vokoun. I said he has not played up to par in the last two games and he hasn't, unless you think giving up 30 foot wristers is par or weak toe shots are par or slow motion wrap arounds are par.

SmokeyClause 10-27-2003 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by triggrman
No one said I soley blame Vokoun. I said he has not played up to par in the last two games and he hasn't, unless you think giving up 30 foot wristers is par or weak toe shots are par or slow motion wrap arounds are par.

What frustrates me is how much blame you are putting on Vokoun. I think you are putting way too much blame on his shoulders. Sure, he wasn't 'on', but he most certianly wasn't 'off'. Last Saturday, Vokoun was going to have to play superhuman to pull off a victory. Why? Because the rest of the team turtled under the pressure of a Rob Blake shoulder/elbow. I was unaware that the heart of the team was directly connected to AJ's eye socket. Instead of jumping to blame Vokoun, we should probably look at the stupid mistakes made by his fellow Preds to create the chances he didn't stop

The first goal was a bad bounce and poor defensive work. Zidlicky followed Sakic (the most deadly option) and the puck squirted loose to a wide open Selanne who was not picked up by Hamhuis.

The second goal was a wonderful shot by Hejduk that went high glove on Vokoun. He wasn't going to make this save. I had a perfect angle up in 306 for this shot. Great release, velocity and location. If you expect him to make a save on this you are going to be sorely disappointed more often than not. The blame lies on Rem Murray's half assed pokecheck. He backchecked out of control, was caught of guard by the drop pass, and gave only a token stab with his stick. Needless to say, he wasn't affective. It was around 30 feet. But 30 feet isn't a whole lot of distance. You know hockey enough to know you don't give snipers a shot whether it's high left slot (it was) or not. And let us not forget the neutral zone TO by Johnson (one of his worst games as a Pred) who got overzealous as he attempted to avoid Forsberg.

The 3rd goal came as a result of a couple of good keepins by Derek Morris. Forsberg found Hejduk in the left slot and he put one glove side high again. On both glove side highs, Vokie butterflies to protect the bottom and he pays. The fault here should go to Greg Johnson who didn't realize Hejduk was a threat until too late. The Avs had made it easy on us by keeping all 5 players on one side of the ice. Johnson, the only player between the goal and Hejduk close enough to make the play, has to realize what's happening instead of reacting. I realize the concern of a backside Morris probably froze him but he's got to step up.

The fourth goal was the Forsberg backhand. Forsberg came off the boards and beat York who was trying to double team a cut off Hejduk. I had a bad angle, but I feel that we aren't giving Forsberg enough credit here. Greg Johnson also took himself out of the play because of a stick to midsection of Hejduk. Timonen looked like he screened Vokoun here.

The most frustrating aspect of this game was how we were beat. We were not beat by Colorado's superior skill. We were not beat because Colorado has a better defense or better goaltending. We weren't beat by their talent. We were beat by their effort. I can't think of the last time Colorado beat a team with their effort.

I'm tired of Greg Johnson. I think we should put the C on a player and then scratch him. How many one-timers in the slot will find the goaltender? How many breakaways will result in nothing? Does this guy have hands of stone or can he not finish?

Enoch 10-27-2003 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by triggrman
wtf are you talking about? There was no scramble, no rebound. He did go around the defenseman but he didn't get much wood on the weak backhand. It looked like he was stuck between trying to take it to his forehand but instead just pushed it in with the toe of the blade. You need to go watch the highlights again.

No, man, from where i was sitting which was 5 rows from the glass :madfire: section 106, there was a rebound. If it wasn't a rebound then it was off somone's skate, during the scramble (yes there was a scramble, I dont know what you call that situation but there were 4-5 guys in front of Vokoun trying to get the puck) Anyways, I dont think Vokoun even knew Forsberg had the puck when he shot it. Your putting all the blame on Vokoun, when he is not the one that should be blamed for the loss. THe defense gave up straight on looks to the Avalanche's high-powered offense, refused to clear the goal-crease, and played less physical than the Avalanche despite having a far tougher team. Forsberg created the goal b/c of his talent, and due to sloppy defensive work. At the worst, somone should have pulled him down and taken the penalty before he got the shot off to begin with.

Fan Development 10-27-2003 08:28 PM

The Atl. wrap around might look like a soft goal, but put yourself in Vokoun's skate's. When a forward drops behind the net, as a goalie you must use the defensemen for clues. Besides being aware of the player behind him, Vokoun also must be aware of what is in front, such as a d-man jumping down for a one-timer.
This is one of the reasons d-men often back off the post where there is no pressure, signaling to the goalie that the pressure is off the post. Hahuis clearly lost sight of the puck and came off the right post, thinking the action was on the left post. Vokoun took the clue from Dan and moved to protect the left post. As soon as the Atl. forward saw Vokoun moving left, he jammed the puck around the post. Tomas did a good job of recovering, especially considering his d-man (Hamhuis) was just cluing into the play by the time the red light went off. Tomas is more critical of himself then anyone on these boards can ever be of him. He might agree with you, but I do not.

triggrman 10-27-2003 09:09 PM

Jesus, you guys are right, Vokoun had no shot at that 30 foot wrister, or that Gretzkyish wrap around, and I still have no idea what hell Enoch was watching, please check it out again there was no scramble, I think you had too many $7 beers.

triggrman 10-27-2003 09:25 PM

Let me also add that defensemen get beat, it's part of the freaking game, if they didn't we would need Vokoun. I don't know how much hockey you all have played or watched but I've yet to see a game where a defenseman goes a full game without getting beat. Vokoun let in 2 softies in back to back games and it cost us

Enoch, go to NHL.com and watch that replay again, it starts about 2min into the replay. Forsberg, continues forward with the puck the entire time, there is no scramble.

golfmade 10-27-2003 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by triggrman
Vokoun seems to be struggling a little he has a 2.36 gaa and only a .917 save percent.

You're *****ing about stats like that, so early in the season?

triggrman 10-28-2003 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfmade
You're *****ing about stats like that, so early in the season?

yes, I am.

We've *****ed about Legwand, we've *****ed about Arkhipov and we've *****ed about York. Vokoun deserves to get a little too.


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