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panayiotis 04-02-2006 10:49 PM

Carter-Umbe-Richards
 
It seems down the stretch that Carter and Umberger have passed Richards. Not knocking Richards. I think he was worn down a touch. Plus Hitch has been playing him with a injured Zus and other stiffs. :teach: I would like to see Knuble dropped down on his line. Carter and Umberger have been coming on during the last quarter of the year. :clap:

BringBackStevens 04-02-2006 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panayiotis
It seems down the stretch that Carter and Umberger have passed Richards. Not knocking Richards. I think he was worn down a touch. Plus Hitch has been playing him with a injured Zus and other stiffs. :teach: I would like to see Knuble dropped down on his line. Carter and Umberger have been coming on during the last quarter of the year. :clap:

offensively, yeah. But richard's overall play IMO is still more important to the Flyers.

Dig Out Your Soul 04-02-2006 11:16 PM

Before making a comment like this, you must realize that Mike Richards' function is not to be a goal scorer. If he had 0 points at the end of this year, I wouldn't care. He does his job on the ice very well.

He has offensive potential, not to the level of Carter, but he will never be put into a first line scoring role. In 5 years, Carter will be the first line centre and Richards will be the second, based on what they do best, not on who is actually the better hockey player.

Richie's penalty killing, defensive ability and his brand of smart hockey is much more valuable, hence why he gets more icetime and has all year. On top of that, he's an energy, heart and soul type player who does whatever it takes to win. He will be the captain of this team if he isn't stupidly traded away. The points will come for Richie, but it's important to remember that he's done his job better than the other rookies all year and that job isn't always measured in stats.

I actually think he's been getting better as the year goes. He's becoming smarter and is learning the intricacies of the NHL game down to the "T" just like he did in junior. Sure his production has declined, but as I said, that doesn't matter because he doesn't need to score more points than Carter or Umberger on this team to be better than them.

dalessam 04-02-2006 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trippyime
Before making a comment like this, you must realize that Mike Richards' function is not to be a goal scorer. If he had 0 points at the end of this year, I wouldn't care. He does his job on the ice very well.

He has offensive potential, not to the level of Carter, but he will never be put into a first line scoring role. In 5 years, Carter will be the first line centre and Richards will be the second, based on what they do best, not on who is actually the better hockey player.

Richie's penalty killing, defensive ability and his brand of smart hockey is much more valuable, hence why he gets more icetime and has all year. On top of that, he's an energy, heart and soul type player who does whatever it takes to win. He will be the captain of this team if he isn't stupidly traded away. The points will come for Richie, but it's important to remember that he's done his job better than the other rookies all year and that job isn't always measured in stats.

I actually think he's been getting better as the year goes. He's becoming smarter and is learning the intricacies of the NHL game down to the "T" just like he did in junior. Sure his production has declined, but as I said, that doesn't matter because he doesn't need to score more points than Carter or Umberger on this team to be better than them.

I agree completely. :clap:

Vikke 04-03-2006 12:11 AM

Well put, trippy.

Dig Out Your Soul 04-03-2006 01:29 AM

One thing I should actually add to my post:

If Carter did not finish with more goals and points than Richards (for a while it looked like this might be the case), I would be very worried about his development. Carter and Umberger have picked it up, but all they're doing is reaching their rookie potential late in the season. Richards hit his potential a couple weeks into the season when he scored that shorty down 2 men against Toronto and he hasn't looked back. Things have turned out exactly the way they should, not "Carter and Umberger have passed Richards".

panayiotis 04-03-2006 01:36 AM

richards
 
He has a ton of ability..He is a playmaker....He will get more points. He needs to play with better players. :yo:

Dig Out Your Soul 04-03-2006 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panayiotis
He has a ton of ability..He is a playmaker....He will get more points. He needs to play with better players. :yo:

I have no doubt, he can be a 60-70 point getter in a few years if given the right linemates. Better linemates will definitely help. But, the point is he should never be expected to put up more points than Carter. In other words, there's no sense being disappointed or searching for excuses for his lack of production because it's just not his primary job.

BobbyClarkeFan16 04-04-2006 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trippyime
I have no doubt, he can be a 60-70 point getter in a few years if given the right linemates. Better linemates will definitely help. But, the point is he should never be expected to put up more points than Carter. In other words, there's no sense being disappointed or searching for excuses for his lack of production because it's just not his primary job.

But that's the thing. As long as Richards is going to be stuck with stiffs for linemates, he'll never meet that production. And you know how the media in Philadelphia can be. They'll be calling for his head and Clarke will panic and deal him.

We have enough talent in Philadelphia that there is no way that Richards should be playing with stiffs. I've always said that Mike reminds me so much of Doug Gilmour and look at how Gilmour responded when he was partnered with good players. He became great. That's how Richards will be.

I just think that Philadelphia is kind of a bad situation for players because it's a defensively rigid system that has no room for compromise. That's my own opinion and it's an opinion that's shared by a few others on here. We need to let the talent of these kids shine through, and not hold it back. And you watch the youngsters and you'll see that they sometimes hold back for fear of reprecussion if they do make a mistake.

FlyersFanJS 04-04-2006 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16
But that's the thing. As long as Richards is going to be stuck with stiffs for linemates, he'll never meet that production. And you know how the media in Philadelphia can be. They'll be calling for his head and Clarke will panic and deal him.

We have enough talent in Philadelphia that there is no way that Richards should be playing with stiffs. I've always said that Mike reminds me so much of Doug Gilmour and look at how Gilmour responded when he was partnered with good players. He became great. That's how Richards will be.

I just think that Philadelphia is kind of a bad situation for players because it's a defensively rigid system that has no room for compromise. That's my own opinion and it's an opinion that's shared by a few others on here. We need to let the talent of these kids shine through, and not hold it back. And you watch the youngsters and you'll see that they sometimes hold back for fear of reprecussion if they do make a mistake.

agreed, the only problem is who to line him up with? the foppa-gags-knuble line is not going to change, and the Umb-Carter-Dime is playing great as well...who should he play with? nedved, radio, kaps, zus, brash, savage....not exactly guys who are going to help him offensively

JXC 04-04-2006 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16
And you know how the media in Philadelphia can be. They'll be calling for his head and Clarke will panic and deal him.

I hardly know if the Philly media covers hockey anymore. It'd be fans calling for his head and that ain't gonna happen 'cause the guy is quintessential Clarke / Dykstra / Dawkins Philly. He picked Hollweg tonight - tapped him on the shoulder and said: "RJ's my boy. You free?"

Uncommon.

Watching him use his body along the boards and his stick in open ice, he's in a different zone than almost everyone else. Not better - just different. He could center the Flyers checking line, a la Madden and Draper, for a decade. Like a Dave Poulin. Or Ron Sutter?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyersFanJS
agreed, the only problem is who to line him up with? the foppa-gags-knuble line is not going to change, and the Umb-Carter-Dime is playing great as well...who should he play with? nedved, radio, kaps, zus, brash, savage....not exactly guys who are going to help him offensively

Richards won't see good linemates this year, I agree. And with Forsberg, Handzus, and Carter, I don't think I see snipers on his wings next year either.

Jester 04-05-2006 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16
But that's the thing. As long as Richards is going to be stuck with stiffs for linemates, he'll never meet that production. And you know how the media in Philadelphia can be. They'll be calling for his head and Clarke will panic and deal him.

We have enough talent in Philadelphia that there is no way that Richards should be playing with stiffs. I've always said that Mike reminds me so much of Doug Gilmour and look at how Gilmour responded when he was partnered with good players. He became great. That's how Richards will be.

I just think that Philadelphia is kind of a bad situation for players because it's a defensively rigid system that has no room for compromise. That's my own opinion and it's an opinion that's shared by a few others on here. We need to let the talent of these kids shine through, and not hold it back. And you watch the youngsters and you'll see that they sometimes hold back for fear of reprecussion if they do make a mistake.


when has Clarke EVER panicked and dealt someone? WHEN? that's complete bull man... he held Lindros for an entire year w/out getting anything for him. Clarke wins almost every trade he makes...

this team is a defensive seive this year... we need to tighten up on defense.

Jester 04-05-2006 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JXC
Richards won't see good linemates this year, I agree. And with Forsberg, Handzus, and Carter, I don't think I see snipers on his wings next year either.

the best thing that could happen with this team next year in terms of using the talent that we have is to have Hitch come to the decision that some combo of Carter/Gagne/Forsberg should be created... don't care who is the center of the two.

i'm not sure we need a guy like Nedved around... i'd move him.

Gagne/Carter/Forsberg
Handzus/Richards/Knuble

then go from there... maybe you just leave things be and allow the Umberger/Carter/Dime line to bite into second line duties... i remain unconvinced that Primeau is a viable option for the future... which would let the Handzus/Richards pairing be your defensive line... which would be a very very strong one.

we're good for the future and Richards will play a prominent role with this team. Hitch loves the kid, he isn't going anywhere. who cares what his linemates are as long as the team is winning and he's leading it... which he will be.

tytech 04-05-2006 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylez19
offensively, yeah. But richard's overall play IMO is still more important to the Flyers.

I couldn't agree more. Richards fighting, killing penalties, cycling with Brashear, his board work etc is much better than Carter. Carter is noticeable when he's flying down the ice but his defensive game and board work is not comaprable.

BobbyClarkeFan16 04-06-2006 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester
the best thing that could happen with this team next year in terms of using the talent that we have is to have Hitch come to the decision that some combo of Carter/Gagne/Forsberg should be created... don't care who is the center of the two.

i'm not sure we need a guy like Nedved around... i'd move him.

Gagne/Carter/Forsberg
Handzus/Richards/Knuble

then go from there... maybe you just leave things be and allow the Umberger/Carter/Dime line to bite into second line duties... i remain unconvinced that Primeau is a viable option for the future... which would let the Handzus/Richards pairing be your defensive line... which would be a very very strong one.

we're good for the future and Richards will play a prominent role with this team. Hitch loves the kid, he isn't going anywhere. who cares what his linemates are as long as the team is winning and he's leading it... which he will be.


I agree with most of your post. I also remain unconvinced that Primeau is a viable option in the future. Too many concussions and too long of a recovery period for the last two. As great as a player he was for us, it's time to hang up the skates. Maybe we can find a role for him in the organization. I think Primeau would make a pretty good coach in Philly.

As for Richards, it is important who his linemates are. It doesn't make any sense to waste his talent that he has playing with scrubs. He's the future number 2 centerman on this team. We need to give him some good players to play with.

I also agree on the Nedved part. He really does nothing for us other than take up roster space and ice time that can go to someone else who is ready to take a step forward (cough....Carter...cough). I just don't know what kind of market is out there for Nedved.

As for Handzus, I know I'm in the minority around here, but I say we shop the hell out of him over the summer to see what we could possibly get in return for him. I know that I've mentioned possibly packaging Handzus, Esche and our first to move up into the top 5-8 and maybe get a prospect or two along with it. If we can't do something like that, maybe we see about dealing Handzus for a good young defenseman (I have a gut feeling that KJ and ED are on the way out - if Clarke wanted to resign them, they would have had their contracts done up long ago).

Finally, with regards to Clarke and panic deals, I'll throw a good one out there for you. Woywitka, a first and a third to Edmonton for Mike Comrie. Our offense was in the septic tank at the time and for some strange reason, everyone thought Comrie was going to be this big offensive catalyst who would help turn our team around. We all know how that one fared out. But I'll give Clarke his props as well, he didn't fare out too bad when he traded Comrie to Phoenix.

Jester 04-06-2006 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16
Finally, with regards to Clarke and panic deals, I'll throw a good one out there for you. Woywitka, a first and a third to Edmonton for Mike Comrie. Our offense was in the septic tank at the time and for some strange reason, everyone thought Comrie was going to be this big offensive catalyst who would help turn our team around. We all know how that one fared out. But I'll give Clarke his props as well, he didn't fare out too bad when he traded Comrie to Phoenix.

Woywitka has turned out to be a bit of a bust i would point out, which i think Clarke realized prior to that trade... the draft picks would be the bad end of that deal. The rumor here throughout was that Comrie was going to get re-dealt, that whole thing wasn't nearly as good as I think he hoped.

if Primeau is gone we can't give up Handzus... As of now, when healthy, he's probably the best face-off guy we have on the team as well as being our best defensive forward (the only problem with Richards is size... a problem that Handzus doesn't have).

panayiotis 04-09-2006 11:59 AM

no way
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tytech
I couldn't agree more. Richards fighting, killing penalties, cycling with Brashear, his board work etc is much better than Carter. Carter is noticeable when he's flying down the ice but his defensive game and board work is not comaprable.

To this point of the season. Richards should not be getting more ice time then carter and umberger. They are simple playing better. Richards and Zus...Checking lines are 3rd lines...Hitch dude... :teach:

Dig Out Your Soul 04-09-2006 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panayiotis
Richards should not be getting more ice time then carter and umberger. They are simple playing better.:teach:

No.

CanuckistanFlyerfan 04-09-2006 02:30 PM

I'd say it's more like Carter and Umberger have caught up to Richards. Adding the Greek dude has given their line what it needed. Richards is usually stuck playing with a couple of plumbers.

Dig Out Your Soul 04-09-2006 04:02 PM

I've already said this in a thread a couple weeks ago. All Carter and Umberger have done is lived up to their offensive potential over the last few weeks. They haven't "caught" Richards and they haven't "passed" Richards. Their primary job is to score goals, Richards primary job is NOT to score goals, however he does have some offensive gifts that should be utilized. Carter is SUPPOSED to produce more than Richards. It doesn't mean Richards is all of a sudden inferior because he's not keeping up in points.

I don't know how many times I have to say this. It's stupid to compare the two. They're completely different players and have different roles.

CanuckistanFlyerfan 04-09-2006 06:01 PM

OK- I wasn't saying Carter "caught" Richards offensively. I'm just saying Richards came into the league looking pretty comfortable. Carter looked out of place (I know the reasons) but now he seems like he's found his niche. They're all playing great, Carter and Umberger are on almost a goal a game pace, and Richards looks fine filling in for Forsberg.

panayiotis 04-09-2006 10:51 PM

again
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by trippyime
I've already said this in a thread a couple weeks ago. All Carter and Umberger have done is lived up to their offensive potential over the last few weeks. They haven't "caught" Richards and they haven't "passed" Richards. Their primary job is to score goals, Richards primary job is NOT to score goals, however he does have some offensive gifts that should be utilized. Carter is SUPPOSED to produce more than Richards. It doesn't mean Richards is all of a sudden inferior because he's not keeping up in points.

I don't know how many times I have to say this. It's stupid to compare the two. They're completely different players and have different roles.

checkers dont get more icetime then scorers. hockey 101 dude :teach:

FlyersFanJS 04-09-2006 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panayiotis
checkers dont get more icetime then scorers. hockey 101 dude :teach:

:handclap:
thank you

Dig Out Your Soul 04-10-2006 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panayiotis
checkers dont get more icetime then scorers. hockey 101 dude :teach:

Was I arguing otherwise? What does that have to do with anything?

And the logic of your post is extremely flawed anyway. You can't make blanket statements like that.

What if we play the Rags in the playoffs and Primeau (say he's healthy) is to shadow Jagr every shift. Jagr plays a lot, wouldn't Primeau the checker end up with more icetime than the scorers?

If Carter the scorer is to ALWAYS get more icetime, why did he only get 9 minutes a game for most of the year? Whereas the "checker" Richards has averaged what, 5 minutes more, at least, per game for the entire season? If the scorer always gets more icetime, what was Hitch thinking!?

Come on "dude", I didn't say anything about icetime.

dalessam 04-10-2006 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trippyime
I've already said this in a thread a couple weeks ago. All Carter and Umberger have done is lived up to their offensive potential over the last few weeks. They haven't "caught" Richards and they haven't "passed" Richards. Their primary job is to score goals, Richards primary job is NOT to score goals, however he does have some offensive gifts that should be utilized. Carter is SUPPOSED to produce more than Richards. It doesn't mean Richards is all of a sudden inferior because he's not keeping up in points.

I don't know how many times I have to say this. It's stupid to compare the two. They're completely different players and have different roles.

I still completely agree. They have different roles that's all there is to it. Carter and R.J. score the goals . . Richards prevents them.


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