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-   -   OHL Playoffs Refereeing Quality (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=242193)

toomanymen 04-16-2006 09:01 AM

OHL Playoffs Refereeing Quality
 
I would like some feedback on the refereeing from fans who have seen other series this year. I've only seen the London games in the two series so far. I feel the refereeing has been very poor. I don't think the Knights are on the short end but there just seems to be no consistency at all. The refs also seem to want to be the game, rather than just call it. The one area that they aren't calling at all is the diving that is going on. Owen Sound went down any time they got touched and the refs bought in. Kostitsyn finally figured it out for London and started to "lose his edge" regularly when OS would touch him.

shawnmullin 04-16-2006 09:06 AM

That's funny, depends on perspective sometimes because the Owen Sound fans last night were talking about how much London's guys were hitting the ice every time they got touched.

I have no bias really, because I'm not really a fan of either team (just moved here) but I do think there's a problem with the OHL rule on diving.

Every 2 minute dive penalty equals a 10 minute misconduct. That's making it way too hard on the refs to actually make the call. I mean they are way less likely to take a risk on a diving call if a guy is going to be out 1/6th of a game because of it.

JrHockeyFan 04-16-2006 09:53 AM

Even up
 
I think with the move to 2 refs the gene pool has been diluted.

Inconsistency is the worst part of it. Nobody one team benefitted this year. In fact all suffered. Failure to set a standard led to confusion and frustration for all the players.

As for diving, I think Owen Sound fans are kidding themselves if they think one side dove more than the other this series. I actually thought lack of discipline penalties were the most common last night. Both coaches must have been pulling their hair out watching it. Lots of PP goals this series.

Quick question about last night: Belan was given an instigator penalty for a fight started by Gonzalsky (spelling?). I agree with the game misconduct call, but the fight was not started by him. It gave OS a 7 minute power play.

JrHockeyFan 04-16-2006 10:01 AM

Yep
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by shawnmullin

Every 2 minute dive penalty equals a 10 minute misconduct. That's making it way too hard on the refs to actually make the call. I mean they are way less likely to take a risk on a diving call if a guy is going to be out 1/6th of a game because of it.

Last year Perry took a stick in the face and went down. He was cut bad enough to need stitches and left the ice. The ref gave Perry a diving penalty and the other guy 2 minutes for high sticking. Clearly by not waiting the ref painted himself in a corner so that he gave 2 minutes when an injury was clearly evident. I guess there are no "correctable errors" like in basketball.

Ex Storm 04-16-2006 02:19 PM

The two ref system, I think, has made things worse.

Last night, Guelph vs. Plymouth, we get Ryan Carroll calling a good game, calling penalties and letting minor stuff go both ways, the way a playoff game should be called. At the other end, Pat Smola (who else) is letting everything go but then he calls the weakest hook on the face of the earth. It's brutal to see refs facing off against each other.

The worst thing I've seen this year was again, Plymouth vs. Guelph game four, in overtime. Smola is reffing AGAIN and he falls for a James Neal dive (Whaler player) and stops the play as Guelph was racing in on a two on one. 10 seconds into the Whaler PP, Holdsworth, the other ref, basically makes up a call when a Guelph player fell near a Plymouth player, but wasn't even touched. It was the most blatant example of a make-up call. The opposite ref making the call really spoke volumes about how he didn't want officiating to decide the game so he evened it up. Of course, Plymouth ended up winning the game on that same 4 on 4, but I think that's beside the point.

Consistency is all we ask for, but consistency is what we'll never get.

JrHockeyFan 04-16-2006 03:59 PM

agreed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by trippyime
The two ref system, I think, has made things worse.

Last night, Guelph vs. Plymouth, we get Ryan Carroll calling a good game, calling penalties and letting minor stuff go both ways, the way a playoff game should be called. At the other end, Pat Smola (who else) is letting everything go but then he calls the weakest hook on the face of the earth. It's brutal to see refs facing off against each other.

The worst thing I've seen this year was again, Plymouth vs. Guelph game four, in overtime. Smola is reffing AGAIN and he falls for a James Neal dive (Whaler player) and stops the play as Guelph was racing in on a two on one. 10 seconds into the Whaler PP, Holdsworth, the other ref, basically makes up a call when a Guelph player fell near a Plymouth player, but wasn't even touched. It was the most blatant example of a make-up call. The opposite ref making the call really spoke volumes about how he didn't want officiating to decide the game so he evened it up. Of course, Plymouth ended up winning the game on that same 4 on 4, but I think that's beside the point.

Consistency is all we ask for, but consistency is what we'll never get.

Through most of the year I have always thought the best games called were one ref games with two exceptions: 1. You were stuck with a bad ref. 2. Games where teams insist on doing a ton of stuff behind the play, which inevitably gets out of hand.

On the other hand I just love it where a ref is looking right at an infraction and for whatever reason decides to call nothing until the other guy retaliates, and only sends one guy off. Sending two off would be like admitting he should have made a call in the first place. No matter how bad the call is I can accept both guys being given the gate.

The other peeve is a guy who calls everything in the book right up to 5 minutes to go and then anything goes. I swear homicide is required to make some guys blow a whistle.

toomanymen 04-19-2006 03:23 PM

I know as thread starter I'm biased, but I cannot believe this topic hasn't elicited more response. Maybe everyone just thinks the quality is poor and accepts it. Otherwise, people aren't really watching the games...

MomentsofSanity 04-19-2006 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toomanymen
I know as thread starter I'm biased, but I cannot believe this topic hasn't elicited more response. Maybe everyone just thinks the quality is poor and accepts it. Otherwise, people aren't really watching the games...

It's probably more the fact that this topic has been beaten to death on this and many other forums... especially with the new systems in place...

Like it or hate it... we're stuck with it... for now.

CharlieGirl 04-19-2006 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MomentsofSanity
It's probably more the fact that this topic has been beaten to death on this and many other forums... especially with the new systems in place...

Like it or hate it... we're stuck with it... for now.

Exactly. There are good refs, poor refs, and in-betweeners, and nothing is going to change that.

The best you can hope for is that a ref's call (or lack thereof) doesn't affect the outcome of a game.

toomanymen 04-19-2006 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie_Girl
Exactly. There are good refs, poor refs, and in-betweeners, and nothing is going to change that.

The best you can hope for is that a ref's call (or lack thereof) doesn't affect the outcome of a game.


Thanks to you both for clarifying my issues w/ the post. Go Knights Go!

JrHockeyFan 04-19-2006 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie_Girl
Exactly. There are good refs, poor refs, and in-betweeners, and nothing is going to change that.

The best you can hope for is that a ref's call (or lack thereof) doesn't affect the outcome of a game.

Amen to that

toomanymen 04-20-2006 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan
Amen to that

At the Knights/Storm game tonight. Reffing horrible both ways. Make up calls etc, it's like watching the refs in the world of pro wrestling...

Ex Storm 04-20-2006 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toomanymen
At the Knights/Storm game tonight. Reffing horrible both ways. Make up calls etc, it's like watching the refs in the world of pro wrestling...

Speaking of wrestling, have you heard of the rumour that trainers in the NHL are hiding little razors in their towels and cutting players after they were highsticked to get the extra two minutes? I mean you sometimes see players biting their lip after a highstick, but if that's true, it really has become wrestling!

JrHockeyFan 04-21-2006 01:30 AM

well . .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by toomanymen
At the Knights/Storm game tonight. Reffing horrible both ways. Make up calls etc, it's like watching the refs in the world of pro wrestling...

It wasn't the best. It looked like old style rules for quite a while. Then out of the blue they started blowing the whistle. It wasn't very consistent. But I do not think it impacted the outcome.

STS44 04-21-2006 06:57 AM

Thought the refs in tonights Guelph/London game were pretty good. Any comments from Petes or Colts fans about the penalty in the 3rd OT to Tremblay that led to the winning goal? Didn't see the game was curious if it was that bad a warranted a penalty ....

CharlieGirl 04-21-2006 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STS44
Thought the refs in tonights Guelph/London game were pretty good. Any comments from Petes or Colts fans about the penalty in the 3rd OT to Tremblay that led to the winning goal? Didn't see the game was curious if it was that bad a warranted a penalty ....

I didn't see that penalty, but the game should have been over in the first OT period. Little was shoved/thrown into Shantz and the puck then went in. The goal was waved off, which brings up a couple of questions:

If the goal was waved off due to goaltender interference, why wasn't a penalty called? If there was no goaltender interference (and the lack of a penalty call pretty much supports this), why was the goal waved off?

OHLArenaGuide 04-21-2006 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan
Last year Perry took a stick in the face and went down. He was cut bad enough to need stitches and left the ice. The ref gave Perry a diving penalty and the other guy 2 minutes for high sticking. Clearly by not waiting the ref painted himself in a corner so that he gave 2 minutes when an injury was clearly evident. I guess there are no "correctable errors" like in basketball.

The ref gave the Ranger guy four, so the Knights still had a two minute PP. Still the worst penalty call I've ever seen in 19 years of watching junior hockey, but at least the right team got the PP.

JrHockeyFan 04-21-2006 10:37 AM

Okay
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sec17
The ref gave the Ranger guy four, so the Knights still had a two minute PP. Still the worst penalty call I've ever seen in 19 years of watching junior hockey, but at least the right team got the PP.

I knew both went off, but forgot that it was 4 minutes. It was a really goofy situation in any case.

JrHockeyFan 04-21-2006 10:45 AM

Good point
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie_Girl
I didn't see that penalty, but the game should have been over in the first OT period. Little was shoved/thrown into Shantz and the puck then went in. The goal was waved off, which brings up a couple of questions:

If the goal was waved off due to goaltender interference, why wasn't a penalty called? If there was no goaltender interference (and the lack of a penalty call pretty much supports this), why was the goal waved off?

I always wonder about how this stuff is handled. Your logic makes good sense, but apparently they do not use logic as part of the handling of these situations.

Somewhere along the line the pendulum has swung back the other way on crease contact. First we had ridiculous runs at the goalie. Then the even more ridiculous "toe in the crease" calls.

I think a lot of stuff to distract the goalie is being let go a bit too much. Everybody is doing it. Talk about illogic, when the goalie is roaming around behind the net, the slightest contact (even embellished stuff) draws a penalty. When he is "protected" by the crease he gets jostled like crazy, nothing.

London Knights 04-21-2006 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan
I always wonder about how this stuff is handled. Your logic makes good sense, but apparently they do not use logic as part of the handling of these situations.

Somewhere along the line the pendulum has swung back the other way on crease contact. First we had ridiculous runs at the goalie. Then the even more ridiculous "toe in the crease" calls.

I think a lot of stuff to distract the goalie is being let go a bit too much. Everybody is doing it. Talk about illogic, when the goalie is roaming around behind the net, the slightest contact (even embellished stuff) draws a penalty. When he is "protected" by the crease he gets jostled like crazy, nothing.

Happens more often than it should. Because the goaltender cannot play the puck they wave off the goal and treat it as if the net came off type of situation. No penalty gets called because the refs are stupid in the first place to not call an interference penalty on the player pushed into the goaltender. That is the problem.

It should be a goal, but they don't call it because the goaltender isn't given an opportunity to make a save.

Blind Gardien 04-21-2006 03:44 PM

I think the playoff reffing so far has been... extremely consistent with the regular season reffing, anyway. FWIW. I've watched almost all of the Barrie-Majors, Barrie-Brampton series', a couple games from the Brampton-Belleville series after the Majors were eliminated, and starting on the Petes and Colts now.

Generally speaking, it's way too many penalties and too many of the questionable variety for me to enjoy these playoff games as much as I have in the past. Some of the OT games have demonstrated a very definite double standard. Which I'm actually glad for, because it means that at least there have been some moments of sanity in the games. If they were calling all the late 3rd periods and OTs just like the rest of the game, it'd be a true nightmare.

But I don't blame the refs themselves for it, really. It's part of the same philosophy that the NHL is going to try to follow in their playoffs this year too. It'll make for ugly, horrible, frustrating powerplay hockey this year, but the ultimate goal is to gradually create a better, cleaner product in the future. Sacrificing this year is the price we have to pay. :cry:

toomanymen 04-23-2006 08:37 PM

Once again...
 
Just got back from game 3 Knights/Storm. First two periods terribly reffed, no flow, obvious make up calls etc. Yes some of the penalties were deserved (ex. Pelech) but in the third, whistle in pocket until a late call on the Knights, requisite make up call, game over. Brutal...and my team won. :dunno:

CharlieGirl 04-23-2006 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toomanymen
Just got back from game 3 Knights/Storm. First two periods terribly reffed, no flow, obvious make up calls etc. Yes some of the penalties were deserved (ex. Pelech) but in the third, whistle in pocket until a late call on the Knights, requisite make up call, game over. Brutal...and my team won. :dunno:

Smola was reffing, huh? (I don't know... but it sure sounds like a Smola-type game)

Ex Storm 04-23-2006 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie_Girl
Smola was reffing, huh? (I don't know... but it sure sounds like a Smola-type game)

Good call CG! Precisely right, Smola was reffing.

CharlieGirl 04-23-2006 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trippyime
Good call CG! Precisely right, Smola was reffing.

It was the whistle in his pocket in the 3rd that gave it away... he's the absolute WORST for that.


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