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-   -   Hamilton Scouting Report 2 (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=25275)

HabsAddict 11-03-2003 09:32 PM

Hamilton Scouting Report 2
 
If you guys are interested.

http://habsrus.proboards4.com/index....num=1067828430

Darz 11-04-2003 05:04 AM

I don't understand

"Itís starting to be very obvious that Savard has nothing but the Senators as the model for our team. His choice of drafting a player is that he should be a very good skater and fairly smart player who can play the a decent hockey game right out of the egg."


I sure hope the habs are looking at the sens as a model. The sens have drafted a ton of talent and realize you can trade talent any day of the week to get the grit and other aspects you might lack. If in 3-5 years we can look anything close to the sens of today, I would be very, very, very happy.

Quagmier 11-04-2003 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darz
I don't understand

"Itís starting to be very obvious that Savard has nothing but the Senators as the model for our team. His choice of drafting a player is that he should be a very good skater and fairly smart player who can play the a decent hockey game right out of the egg."


I sure hope the habs are looking at the sens as a model. The sens have drafted a ton of talent and realize you can trade talent any day of the week to get the grit and other aspects you might lack. If in 3-5 years we can look anything close to the sens of today, I would be very, very, very happy.

Problem is, we never, EVER have a good draft position, so getting the top end talent just doesn't happen for us.

Sure Kast, Higgins, and Perez are all good prospects, but we aren't getting the first overalls like Ottawa used to, which sux.

Joe Malone 11-04-2003 09:14 AM

It's not just Savard that's in the picture. Gainey was the main architect in building the Dallas Stars, and now Pierre Gauthier is there too. Gauthier was in Ottawa as well, but then moved on and helped build Anaheim's team. But to me, Gainey is the main man, and will shape the future habs team. If you look back at what Savard did, you can say Ottawa. But looking forward, might we say Dallas and/or Anaheim?

DEBASER 11-04-2003 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quagmier
Problem is, we never, EVER have a good draft position, so getting the top end talent just doesn't happen for us.

that is not an excuse, and i'll use the same ottawa senators as an example - their current best forwards were not top 5 picks - hossa was drafted 12th in '97, havlat 26th in '99, and alfredson something like 144th in '94. the habs have been drafting around the 10th spot in the draft for the last 5 or so years.

GB 11-04-2003 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quagmier
Problem is, we never, EVER have a good draft position, so getting the top end talent just doesn't happen for us.

Sure Kast, Higgins, and Perez are all good prospects, but we aren't getting the first overalls like Ottawa used to, which sux.

True, but what makes Ottawa such a good drafting team are their mid and late round picks eg:

Demitra (227)
Alfredsson (133)
Dackell (136)
Salo (239)
Arvedson (119)
Rachunek (229)
Schastlivy (101)
Prusek (164)

That sort of later drafting really benefits a team.

Darz 11-04-2003 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quagmier
Problem is, we never, EVER have a good draft position, so getting the top end talent just doesn't happen for us.

Sure Kast, Higgins, and Perez are all good prospects, but we aren't getting the first overalls like Ottawa used to, which sux.

Alot more of Ottawa's success has to be attributed to them finding useful players in lower rounds of the draft:
227th in '93 - Pavol Demitra
133rd in '94 - Daniel Alfredsson
136th in '96 - Andreas Dackell
239th in '96 - Sami Salo
58th in '97 - Jani Hurme
119th in '97 - Magnus Arvedson
229th in '97 - Karel Rachunek
44th in '98 - Mike Fisher
101st in '98 - Petr Schastlivy
161st in '98 - Chris Neil
164th in '99 - Martin Prusek
55th in '00 - Antoine Vermette

and picking some good mid to lower 1st rounders
12th in '97 - Marian Hossa
26th in '99 - Martin Havlat
21st in '00 - Anton Volchenkov


...and making smart trades
Yashin for Spezza, Chara
Redden for Berard


than the fact they receive Daigle, Berard & Phillips with 1st overall picks.

HabsAddict 11-04-2003 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darz
I don't understand

"Itís starting to be very obvious that Savard has nothing but the Senators as the model for our team. His choice of drafting a player is that he should be a very good skater and fairly smart player who can play the a decent hockey game right out of the egg."


I sure hope the habs are looking at the sens as a model. The sens have drafted a ton of talent and realize you can trade talent any day of the week to get the grit and other aspects you might lack. If in 3-5 years we can look anything close to the sens of today, I would be very, very, very happy.

To clarify this......

Yes, it would be nice to be like the current Sens but do we have to be the hot water washed shrunken version of them?

I don't mind if we had bigger players AND the skill level. What is bothering me is that we seem to be looking at the skating and skill level and ignoring that the team needs balance.

Many people say that we can always trade for size. Why would anyone else want to GIVE up that size to us unless we overpaid? Would you trade Saku for Dvorak?

Mike8 11-04-2003 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HabsAddict
To clarify this......

Yes, it would be nice to be like the current Sens but do we have to be the hot water washed shrunken version of them?

I don't mind if we had bigger players AND the skill level. What is bothering me is that we seem to be looking at the skating and skill level and ignoring that the team needs balance.

Many people say that we can always trade for size. Why would anyone else want to GIVE up that size to us unless we overpaid? Would you trade Saku for Dvorak?

I don't understand that last question. Koivu for Dvorak? Is Dvorak supposed to be big?

Many teams trade size for skill. Look at Philly, who's dealt several of their bigger players in favour of smaller, skilled players like Kapanen.

Toronto picked up Nolan for smaller players, and picked up Roberts on the UFA market.

Edmonton dealt Niinimaa for two big bodied forwards.

NYI dealt a collection of youth and skill for Peca, Wiemer, Parrish. The emphasis is on youth and skill in the deals for those players; not size.

There are many examples of teams dealing for skill, while giving up size. Most teams in the league right now can use scoring forwards, meanwhile there's a lot of muckers that have some decent upside available.

The fact is, size is not Montreal's problem. Skill and strength are. Forsberg is one of the strongest players in the game and can carry opponents on his back, but he's smaller than the league average sized player. Madden and Peca are two of the best shut down specialists in the league and can physically contain the opposition in the bigger Eastern conference, yet both are undersized compared to the average player in the league.

This is due to excellent lower body strength; NOT size. Lower body strength determines body checks and ability to battle in the trenches.

On the other hand, a player like Chad Kilger is a complete flake in terms of strength and how he uses it.

Size is not Montreal's concern. Bringing in players who have a good work ethic, skating and good offensive skill should be the primary objective.

And by the way, I don't find Higgins 'undersized' in the same way that I don't find Forsberg or Madden undersized. He's got a good lower body strength which will enable him to compete down low, and he has the acceleration and craftiness to succeed at both ends of the rinks. I see him inflicting more big hits on the opposition than he takes.

Harry Kakalovich 11-04-2003 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike8
Size is not Montreal's concern. Bringing in players who have a good work ethic, skating and good offensive skill should be the primary objective.

And by the way, I don't find Higgins 'undersized' in the same way that I don't find Forsberg or Madden undersized. He's got a good lower body strength which will enable him to compete down low, and he has the acceleration and craftiness to succeed at both ends of the rinks. I see him inflicting more big hits on the opposition than he takes.

definitely agree with the fact the habs need work ethic and heart more than anything else. once we have everybody playing together as a team and giving all they have each shift, we will make up for our lack of skill.

also agree with your size analysis: i remember a few years back i looked at colorado's team and they had no forward bigger than 6'1". that's why i prefer the terms hard and soft. bouillon is 5'8" but he is 'hard'. traverse is big, but he plays soft. we need more players who play hard.

and stellar goaltending...


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