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-   -   Why is Gretzky so underrated here? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=25296)

Oilers Hockey 11-04-2003 01:14 AM

Why is Gretzky so underrated here?
 
I read through thread and some don't even list him in their top five. Why? Whether you loved or hated him, he had intangibles too, like leadership and heart. He isn't the "Great One" just because he smashed point record not likely to be broken again. I realize that with some people here the more of a pessimist you are, the more knowledgeable you are, but some take it too far. I can understand Pens fans thinking Lemeuix was better, but the general attitude is that Gretzky wasn't that great. In my opinion he was the finest and most talented player to ever lace up the skates in the NHL. Thanks for your time~!! :)

Tidus 11-04-2003 02:48 AM

Well I don't get into too many conversations based on greatest player of all time, because compared to some people here I'm relatively young. Still, I watched the great one when he played with LA, STL and even the Rags... and I've seen some old video of Oilers games and I must agree WG isn't called the Great One for nothing. IMO, the top three are always gonna be up in the air... Orr, Gretzky, and Super Mario are in a class of their own.

Shibumi 11-04-2003 03:47 AM

The one knock I have against Mario is the first five or six years he played for the Pens, they never made the playoffs. I realize one man doesn't make a team. I would say Mario is fourth on my list after Gretzky, Orr, and Howe.

Slats432 11-04-2003 05:17 AM

I would love to see the thread where posters don't rate Gretzky in their top 5.(By the way is that favourite or best player, if it is best player, anyone who doesn't have him in their top 2 is http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/drunk.gif )

dawgbone 11-04-2003 05:27 AM

I love this discussion (well, when I have had it in the past).

Had Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr all played the same number of games, I honestly think Gretzky is 3rd. The reason for that, is Orr changed the game for defensemen, and was simply dominant at both ends of the ice like no other player has been since. Lemieux has the ultimate ombination of speed, size, skill, finese. He could deke you out with 4 or 5 sweet moves, or he could simply hold you off with one arm... either way, he was getting his goal. Gretzky, wasn't as fast as either guy, wasn't as strong, and arguably wasn't as skilled... but I don't think that there has ever been a smarter player ever in hockey, nor someone with anywhere close to the same vision. The guy took shots that went in from weird places because he saw what the goalie was doing. He could throw a blind pass into an area where only his guy was...

But the one thing that separates all of them is durability. Yeah, Gretz had a few injuries, but nothing to the extent of what Lemieux or Orr did. I would rather a Gretzky for 20 seasons than Lemieux for 14, or Orr for 12. To me, that puts Gretz at number 1.

My personal top 5 (mostly based on what I have read, and sometimes seen in the cases of the older players):

1 Greztky
2 Lemieux
3 Orr
4 Messier
5 Howe

And My top 5 goalies are:

1 Sawchuck
2 Roy - Fuhr (tied... It is almost impossible to pick between the 2 in terms of who I would want starting game 7).
4 Dryden
5 Hall

oilflash 11-04-2003 08:19 AM

Statistics Say Volumes
 
Gretzky will always be #1. When Messier overtakes Gordie Howe as the 2nd leading points getter of all time, how far will he be behind "The Great One" ?? What ... just a measly 1000 plus points. I might not know as much about hockey as some but that fact is pretty telling. See this page http://nhl.com/hockeyu/history/gretzky/61records.html for more facts.:dazzle:

OYLer 11-04-2003 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slats432
I would love to see the thread where posters don't rate Gretzky in their top 5.(By the way is that favourite or best player, if it is best player, anyone who doesn't have him in their top 2 is http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/drunk.gif )

Love this graghic approach to communication.:lol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilflash

Great post! 61 records WOW!:yo:

Edge 11-04-2003 12:20 PM

we're having an interesting gretz, mess debate over on the rangers board if you wanna check it out. it's interesting becuse both sides have a valid claim imo.

outKast* 11-04-2003 01:08 PM

It boggles my mind too how some people can be so ignorant as to say that Mario Lemiuex is better than Gretzky. Why? Dear God Why? Wayne has a thousand more points than Howe who played till he was 50. :dunno: i realy don't know how you can argue that anyone can be better but whatever. I'll take their opinions anyways.

kruezer 11-04-2003 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawgbone
But the one thing that separates all of them is durability. Yeah, Gretz had a few injuries, but nothing to the extent of what Lemieux or Orr did. I would rather a Gretzky for 20 seasons than Lemieux for 14, or Orr for 12. To me, that puts Gretz at number 1.

I completely agree, nobody seems to recognize Gretzky's longevity as anything. I guess it all comes down to how you look are rating them (career vs. talent). But I think when it comes to ranking all time top players NHL, career is the only way to go....talent throws too many variables in to make it really possible to debate....it just becomes one person's opinion at one time.

HOZ 11-04-2003 02:34 PM

Gordie Howe wasn't the most talented in his era either. He simply was the best. It was his will to win that set him above the rest. He'd kill to win.

Bobby Orr was the most talented and best player of his era. But he was cut down by a knee injury. Can't wheel and deal when you have one flat tire!

:teach: :teach: :teach:
Gretzky was never the most talented player. He was simply the greatest ever. He isn't a great skater. His shot isn't that great either. Yet he put up points like no one ever had before or has since. 215 points by a small, slow, weakling. Yet he dominated. Why? The will to win. That sets him way above anyone else.

Mario had to learn it from him before he started pumping in 199points.


Some people will never understand this. People wtill think Gretzky embarrassed himself at the Olympics. No, that was a WINNER blowing up at a loser of a team. :handclap:

thome_26 11-04-2003 05:46 PM

To me it is tough to tell because of the whole who was healthy blah blah blah - NOT, this is such an easy question. I mean give me a good ****** break - Sure Orr changed the game, but SO DID GRETZKY!!! I'm affraid that Orr simply can't make a case as he was good defensively, but his pitch is made because of his offense. Well he's not he best offensive Dman of all time - Coffey is (all time and single season!)

krooky 11-04-2003 05:52 PM

Wayne Gretzky is the greatest athlete in the HISTORY OF SPORT! He dominated like no other, and that's the bottom line. You can't even mention any other player in the same breath as him. LEMIEUX SUCKS!!

hockeyaddict101 11-04-2003 06:07 PM

Gretzky had it all
 
He couldn't shoot but managed to score 92 goals yet it was an offensive era but who in that era came even close to scoring 92??

His shot is very underrated even today. Ask any goaltender from that era and they will tell you that Mr. Gretzky could shoot.

How do you check him? If you backed off him he would find a open man anywhere because he saw the ice better than anyone that has ever played.

If you tried to take away the pass he would burn you with his shot.

As for his skating, yep he couldn't skate but managed to have so many breakaways, and name one player that could catch him when he got in the clear?

He wasn't great in any one area he was great in them all.

Jacques Demers comment was in my hockey calender the other night "He was impossible to check, everyone said hit him but it was almost impossible to hit him because he was always three plays ahead of everyone else"

Oi'll say! 11-04-2003 06:33 PM

Just to put things in perspective here Gretzky has 84 points less than Mario Lemieux and Jaromir Jagr combined as of this day, and Wayne played in 363 less games than they did.

Dawg made a good point about Orr revolutionising the position of defense, but you could say that Wayne turned the whole league upside-down in the 80's. The nhl actually changed the 4-on-4 rule just because Wayne and Jari were so dominant. People say "that was during the most offensive period ever in the league", but for those of us who were watching hockey back then we all remember hearing the "only defense can win the Stanley Cup" theory that was briefly laid to rest (although the Oilers did play some good defense in the playoffs on occasion). Wayne and the Oilers ushered in that era of offense hockey thank you very much.

In favour of Mario, I will say that he was as good or better than Wayne in a strictly one-on-one scenario, but hockey is a team game and Wayne used his teammates better than anyone else ever has, and by a very wide margin. B4 Wayne came along nobody ever tried to pass the puck through the air, now even I do it in beer league hockey. That's revolution 4 ya. Wayne was the best, no doubt about it. Mario learned a lot from Wayne when he played for team Canada and he has publicly admitted that it was a turning point in his career.

1Wayne
2Mario
3Orr

4Howe
5Messier

6twenty way tie

Belcriss 11-04-2003 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOZ
Gordie Howe wasn't the most talented in his era either. He simply was the best. It was his will to win that set him above the rest. He'd kill to win.

Bobby Orr was the most talented and best player of his era. But he was cut down by a knee injury. Can't wheel and deal when you have one flat tire!

:teach: :teach: :teach:
Gretzky was never the most talented player. He was simply the greatest ever. He isn't a great skater. His shot isn't that great either. Yet he put up points like no one ever had before or has since. 215 points by a small, slow, weakling. Yet he dominated. Why? The will to win. That sets him way above anyone else.

Mario had to learn it from him before he started pumping in 199points.


Some people will never understand this. People wtill think Gretzky embarrassed himself at the Olympics. No, that was a WINNER blowing up at a loser of a team. :handclap:



Wrong again, Gretzky avoided injury, scored goals, and made unbelievable passes because he was head and shoulders above anyone else in his vision of the game. He literally knew what was going to happen before it happened, in fact, Gretzky as part of his pregame warmup think of all the possible scenarious that the other team would try, to stop him. He simply outthought everyone else. Gretzky's will to win wasn't there, because he didn't care if he won or lost, it was all on how HE played the game. If he anticipated, and his mental aspect was on target, the team would win, and thats exactly how Gretz approached the game. Keenan after the Canada Cup said about Gretz.... I have never met a player that thought the game as well as he does, and thats why he is the greatest!

Belcriss 11-04-2003 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaz44
He couldn't shoot but managed to score 92 goals yet it was an offensive era but who in that era came even close to scoring 92??

His shot is very underrated even today. Ask any goaltender from that era and they will tell you that Mr. Gretzky could shoot.

How do you check him? If you backed off him he would find a open man anywhere because he saw the ice better than anyone that has ever played.

If you tried to take away the pass he would burn you with his shot.

As for his skating, yep he couldn't skate but managed to have so many breakaways, and name one player that could catch him when he got in the clear?

He wasn't great in any one area he was great in them all.

Jacques Demers comment was in my hockey calender the other night "He was impossible to check, everyone said hit him but it was almost impossible to hit him because he was always three plays ahead of everyone else"


I think what everyone was trying to say is, Gretz didn't have the fastest wheels, nor the hardest or most accurate shot, even Wayne will admit that. you said it the last with your quote of Lemaire.. he was three plays ahead of everyone else...... On nights when Gretz was really on, IMO he was a couple of shifts ahead of everyone else!

Walsher 11-04-2003 09:02 PM

A player would have to average over a 20 year career close to 50 goals and 100 assists to amass the point totals of Wayne. Think about that. For a guy with "inferior" skill levels of these other players thats pretty remarkable. The fact is he is superior in every sence. Everyone says that Lemieuz is amazing one on one and Orr revolutionized the game. Gretzky did that and more. He has more assists that anyone else has point not to mention the fact he has more goals than anyone else (by 91). He is the best will always be the best.

dawgbone 11-05-2003 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walsher
A player would have to average over a 20 year career close to 50 goals and 100 assists to amass the point totals of Wayne. Think about that. For a guy with "inferior" skill levels of these other players thats pretty remarkable. The fact is he is superior in every sence. Everyone says that Lemieuz is amazing one on one and Orr revolutionized the game. Gretzky did that and more. He has more assists that anyone else has point not to mention the fact he has more goals than anyone else (by 91). He is the best will always be the best.

No one is arguing that...

The point I made was that Orr was probably the best 2 way player of all time... you need to take scoring into perspective. They weren't averaging 8 goals per game when Orr played. I know alot of that average had to do with the Oilers, but it really was a different game.

Orr revolutionized the game. He was really the first defenceman to concentrate just as much on offense as he did on defense. He was the one who paved the way for the Paul Coffey's of the NHL. During his time, he was the most dominant player in the offensive end, as well as the most dominant in the defensive... no one else has managed to ever do that.

You honestly can't beleive Gretzky's individual physical skills, and ability to handle the puck is at all comparable to Lemieux... heck I would also say the same thing that Lemieux isn't as good as Jagr in that aspect. Lemieux now is finally becoming close to as intelligent as Gretzky was as a 22 year old... instead of thinking the game as it is happening, he is thinking it before it happens.

That, IMO, is why Gretzky is the best. Talent and skill are nice, but if you don't have the intelligence, it is all useless. Gretzky didn't have a booming shot... but he didn't have to. He played when goalies only took up half the net, as opposed to 3/4 of it, and instead of trying to beat a goalie with a fast shot, he would beat him with a well placed shot. I am not saying that Gretz couldn't break a pane of glass, but in his time, he didn't have anything close to one of the hardest shots in the league. The thing with Gretzky is that you never knew if he was going to shoot or pass. He could be clear in the prime scoring area and you would be convinced he would try and shoot it, but instead, fire a pass to a wide open teammate for an easy tap in. Or conversely, you were calling pass, and Gretzky would shoot it through a crowd and in. He also always knew where the puck would be. I don't remember how many times I would see Gretz circle without the puck, and just go to a spot... seconds later the puck was on his stick either by a pass, or on a rebound...

Gretzky, IMO was the player he was because the game to him really was 80% mental and 20% physical. His production had more to do with the fact he was so much smarter than anyone else in the game that he continually found himself in the right place at the right time, or that he had everyone so off-guard they didn't know what to do.

Walsher 11-05-2003 11:00 AM

You honestly can't beleive Gretzky's individual physical skills, and ability to handle the puck is at all comparable to Lemieux... heck I would also say the same thing that Lemieux isn't as good as Jagr in that aspect. Lemieux now is finally becoming close to as intelligent as Gretzky was as a 22 year old... instead of thinking the game as it is happening, he is thinking it before it happens..[/QUOTE]

I thionk that Lemieux had greater one on one skill but the vision and passing ability of Gretzky is far superior to Lemieux's puckskill. Pavel Bure has better one on one skill than gretzky that doesn't mean he is a better player. Gretzky had everything. He piled in the points at will. Dominated his sport like no other athlete in other sports. He is so far and away the superior player. Orr was great, Lemieux is great, Gretzky was hands down the greatest. Orr changed the face of defensemen, but butterfly goalies changed the face of goaltending as well. I don't say Hasek is the best goaltender of all-time because he was revolutionary in his style and success.

dawgbone 11-05-2003 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walsher
I thionk that Lemieux had greater one on one skill but the vision and passing ability of Gretzky is far superior to Lemieux's puckskill. Pavel Bure has better one on one skill than gretzky that doesn't mean he is a better player. Gretzky had everything. He piled in the points at will. Dominated his sport like no other athlete in other sports. He is so far and away the superior player. Orr was great, Lemieux is great, Gretzky was hands down the greatest. Orr changed the face of defensemen, but butterfly goalies changed the face of goaltending as well. I don't say Hasek is the best goaltender of all-time because he was revolutionary in his style and success.

Not sure who you are arguing with here... those are pretty much the points that I made, and what everyone else made... Gretzky was as good as he was not because of his skill level, but because of his intelligence and vision.

Orr didn't just change the face of defensemen... he dominated the offensive and defensive zones like no other player before him, and like no other player has since. Hockey is a two-way game, and being able to dominate both ends is what made Orr great... the change he helped put forth was because of his greatness.

JDB3939 11-05-2003 11:14 AM

Mario is the most talented player to ever play the game while Gretzky was the greatest player to ever play the game. That's the simplest way you can put it with pleasing as many people as possible.

Walsher 11-05-2003 01:30 PM

I still maintain Gretzky is the most talented player. Lemieux hand better one on one skills but to me hockey talent goes far beyond dekes and breakaway moves. Talent is far more than flashy moves. Howe was talented and he didn't wow the crowd with amazing moves his talents were different but yet still recognizable. Gretzky's skill was in every part of the game. He was the most skilled and the numbers show it. Numbers don't lie. He scored the most goals by more than 100, he has more than 1000 more points than anyone else. He is the most talented!


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