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-   -   Leafs/Ducks Proposal (Rumour) (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=25298)

Minos 11-04-2003 01:41 AM

Leafs/Ducks Proposal (Rumour)
 
I heard this on the radio in the middle of the night, but I didn't catch the whole story...it sounded like they were talking about an actual trade rumour, but for the sake of forum rules I'll call it a 'proposal' (I should point out though that I'm not a fan of either team involved!).

Leafs: Rob Neidermayer, Vitali Vishnovsky
Ducks: Darcy Tucker and a "surplus defenseman"

The part of the conversation I heard the most of (I was working while the radio was on) was of them talking about which of the Leaf 'surplus defensemen' would most interest the Ducks - Aki Berg, Piere Hedin or Maxim Kondratiev. Richard Jackman and Karel Pilar were also mentioned, but it was generally agreed that the Leafs wouldn't move Jackman at this point and Pilar's health would make him too big of a question mark for the Ducks.

Assuming theres some merit to this rumour, who would the Ducks most want? I think the Leafs would probably want to move Berg and he might be of interest to the Ducks simply because he's the most experienced of the names mentioned and he's still young enough to possibly live up to some of his potential. In th long run Hedin or Kondratiev could be the better defenseman, but are the Ducks deep enough on D to lose a NHL D and not get one back right away ?

FacelessButcher 11-04-2003 01:55 AM

Is Niedermayer on the trade block? I thought he was doing quite well for the ducks I have heard Vishnevsky tossed around numerous times but never Niedermayer.That deal does not really seem fair unless you missed a substansial part of it Minos.

Kevin Forbes 11-04-2003 02:01 AM

to further clarify my fellow posters opinion
Niedermayer is the Ducks leading scorer
Ducks have difficulty scoring
Niedermayer is a guy who is getting it done
I don't think Tucker can fill that role
the Ducks have 8 d-men right now (well 7.5, Ward also plays forward)
If they trade a d-man, they would definitely not want another one back (unless it's a two for one deal)
and if they do get another one back, it shouldn't be of the "surplus" kind

To me the values are a bit screwy too, especially if you consider Vishnevski's potential. I think Niedermayer and Tucker are a wash (once this would be laughable, but Niedermayer has become a lot more valuable since the Ducks got him, IMO)
Vishnevksi for Berg/Hedin/Kondratiev favors Leafs IMO and plus the Ducks don't need another "surplus" guy
Your opinion on that move is just the opposite of mine, the Ducks would probably prefer a guy like Hedin or Kondratiev to put in the minors and develop then a guy like Berg who's already a known quantity. But the Ducks would be more interested in an offensive defenseman prospect. Ian White perhaps?

Maybe the value isn't as bad as I thought, but I can't see the Ducks trading Niedermayer without getting top 6 scoring talent in return. Tucker isn't that.

Minos 11-04-2003 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forbesy
Your opinion on that move is just the opposite of mine, the Ducks would probably prefer a guy like Hedin or Kondratiev to put in the minors and develop then a guy like Berg who's already a known quantity. But the Ducks would be more interested in an offensive defenseman prospect. Ian White perhaps?

It wasn't really my opinion that the Ducks would want Berg (just that the Leaf's would most like to move him), I figured the Ducks would want one of the younger D's but wasn't sure what the reaction would be in Anaheim if they dealt away 2 roster players and got 1 back. Berg is underestimated IMO (he's +4 on a team thats mostly minuses), he gets a bad rap in TO mainly because Quinn puts him in situations he clearly shouldn't be in.

As for value, I have no idea what the Ducks financial situation is like but maybe the contracts/salaries of the player's mentioned evens this deal out a little more? I'm saying that off the top of my head...I have no idea what any of these guys make or for how long they are signed - but saddly thats aways a consideration and definitely apart of a trade's total "value".

Personally, I think the Leaf's would move Ian White in the same deal mentioned....John Fergusson seems intent on making a move and I doubt he's going to convince another GM to take any of Quinn's mistakes off his hands (Nolan, Rechiel, Renberg, Marchment).

Toronto's biggest problem is they have incredible depth at D (including 10 guys in St. John's) but none of them are (or are likely to ever be) impact defensemen. Vishnovsky is definitely good, but he's not a big improvement over Berg IMO...in the Leaf's situation I would think he'd be looking for another vetran like Ken Klee, someone who's more reliable, experienced and better suited to help them win now.

What do I care though, I'm a Habs fan :D

think-blue- 11-04-2003 04:51 AM

Interesting Hedin's name has been brought up. I cant verify this by any means, but weren't there a few rumours last year and years previous that the Ducks GM really liked Hedin?

And yes, it is imperative for the Leafs to make a deal right now. There are way too many defensemen in St. Johns who should be getting reg. ice time and are not. Plus when Renberg, Kidd, Antropov get back, I think the Leafs will exceed the 23 man limit. Yes, the easy thing would be to send Stajan and Tellqvist down, but when you have Matt playing pretty damn well, you tend to reconsider. Both Poni. and Perrott have to clear waivers - something I doubt either would do.

Interesting rumour nontheless. One thing I really like about Niedermayer is his skating, something the Leafs are in desperate need of up front (we're too damn slow!) Id still hate to give up Tucker, though.

balddog66 11-04-2003 05:22 AM

guys like Perrot go through waivers every week...

think-blue- 11-04-2003 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by balddog66
guys like Perrot go through waivers every week...

Doubt it. A capable enforcer/12th-13th forward is something quite a few teams could use, Im sure.

Plus, all GM's saw what he was capable of in the preseason when they were in Toronto.

Volcanologist 11-04-2003 05:32 AM

Quote:

Toronto's biggest problem is they have incredible depth at D (including 10 guys in St. John's) but none of them are (or are likely to ever be) impact defensemen.
Better take a closer look.

Slats432 11-04-2003 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minos

Leafs: Rob Neidermayer, Vitali Vishnovsky
Ducks: Darcy Tucker and a "surplus defenseman"

Before you get crucified by both teams.

Lubomir Visnovsky is an LA King.
Vitali Vishnevsky is a Mighty Duck.

think-blue- 11-04-2003 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PepNCheese
Better take a closer look.

:dunno: Id We've got a lot of pretty good-decent young dmen coming up, but probably with the exception of Colaiacovo (right now), none stand to make a significant impact.

think-blue- 11-04-2003 05:49 AM

BTW, which radio station did you hear this on?

BIG FAN 11-04-2003 06:03 AM

Niedermayer is garbage - so is Tucker for that matter. I don't think any team wants Darcy at all. The guy is a cancer - all he does every game is whine to the refs about this call and that call. I would rather Ferguson just put the guy on waivers if he can't trade him.


Quote:

Originally Posted by forbesy
to further clarify my fellow posters opinion
Niedermayer is the Ducks leading scorer
Ducks have difficulty scoring
Niedermayer is a guy who is getting it done
I don't think Tucker can fill that role
the Ducks have 8 d-men right now (well 7.5, Ward also plays forward)
If they trade a d-man, they would definitely not want another one back (unless it's a two for one deal)
and if they do get another one back, it shouldn't be of the "surplus" kind

To me the values are a bit screwy too, especially if you consider Vishnevski's potential. I think Niedermayer and Tucker are a wash (once this would be laughable, but Niedermayer has become a lot more valuable since the Ducks got him, IMO)
Vishnevksi for Berg/Hedin/Kondratiev favors Leafs IMO and plus the Ducks don't need another "surplus" guy
Your opinion on that move is just the opposite of mine, the Ducks would probably prefer a guy like Hedin or Kondratiev to put in the minors and develop then a guy like Berg who's already a known quantity. But the Ducks would be more interested in an offensive defenseman prospect. Ian White perhaps?

Maybe the value isn't as bad as I thought, but I can't see the Ducks trading Niedermayer without getting top 6 scoring talent in return. Tucker isn't that.


ACC1224 11-04-2003 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG FAN
Niedermayer is garbage - so is Tucker for that matter. I don't think any team wants Darcy at all. The guy is a cancer - all he does every game is whine to the refs about this call and that call. I would rather Ferguson just put the guy on waivers if he can't trade him.

Recess over yet?

Minos 11-04-2003 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThinkBlue
BTW, which radio station did you hear this on?

1010 CFRB, usually not sports oriented talk radio but they had a panel of people (maybe 3 or 4?) talking about the Toronto Sports scene - Argos, Raptors, Leafs and Roadrunners.

Pinto 11-04-2003 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minos
I heard this on the radio in the middle of the night, but I didn't catch the whole story...it sounded like they were talking about an actual trade rumour, but for the sake of forum rules I'll call it a 'proposal' (I should point out though that I'm not a fan of either team involved!).

Leafs: Rob Neidermayer, Vitali Vishnovsky
Ducks: Darcy Tucker and a "surplus defenseman"

The part of the conversation I heard the most of (I was working while the radio was on) was of them talking about which of the Leaf 'surplus defensemen' would most interest the Ducks - Aki Berg, Piere Hedin or Maxim Kondratiev. Richard Jackman and Karel Pilar were also mentioned, but it was generally agreed that the Leafs wouldn't move Jackman at this point and Pilar's health would make him too big of a question mark for the Ducks.

Assuming theres some merit to this rumour, who would the Ducks most want? I think the Leafs would probably want to move Berg and he might be of interest to the Ducks simply because he's the most experienced of the names mentioned and he's still young enough to possibly live up to some of his potential. In th long run Hedin or Kondratiev could be the better defenseman, but are the Ducks deep enough on D to lose a NHL D and not get one back right away ?

No use making that trade for the leafs. NOTE THE REST OF THE LEAGUE, we need a #1 or #2 defenceman. If pilar or kondraitev was invloved, i definelty wouldnt make that trade

Poignant Discussion 11-04-2003 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minos
I heard this on the radio in the middle of the night, but I didn't catch the whole story...it sounded like they were talking about an actual trade rumour, but for the sake of forum rules I'll call it a 'proposal' (I should point out though that I'm not a fan of either team involved!).

Leafs: Rob Neidermayer, Vitali Vishnovsky
Ducks: Darcy Tucker and a "surplus defenseman"

The part of the conversation I heard the most of (I was working while the radio was on) was of them talking about which of the Leaf 'surplus defensemen' would most interest the Ducks - Aki Berg, Piere Hedin or Maxim Kondratiev. Richard Jackman and Karel Pilar were also mentioned, but it was generally agreed that the Leafs wouldn't move Jackman at this point and Pilar's health would make him too big of a question mark for the Ducks.

Assuming theres some merit to this rumour, who would the Ducks most want? I think the Leafs would probably want to move Berg and he might be of interest to the Ducks simply because he's the most experienced of the names mentioned and he's still young enough to possibly live up to some of his potential. In th long run Hedin or Kondratiev could be the better defenseman, but are the Ducks deep enough on D to lose a NHL D and not get one back right away ?

Tuckers going nowhere and Neidermayer faked an injury a few years ago so he wouldn't be traded to Toronto for Potvin. I highly doubt this trade rumor has any merit

Poignant Discussion 11-04-2003 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG FAN
Niedermayer is garbage - so is Tucker for that matter. I don't think any team wants Darcy at all. The guy is a cancer - all he does every game is whine to the refs about this call and that call. I would rather Ferguson just put the guy on waivers if he can't trade him.


LMFAO @ Tucker being garbage For the money and what you get on the table a better player cannot be had.

And won't be had Tuckers going NOWHERE

ACC1224 11-04-2003 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NataSatan666
Tuckers going nowhere and Neidermayer faked an injury a few years ago so he wouldn't be traded to Toronto for Potvin. I highly doubt this trade rumor has any merit

unless you're JF jr I can't see how you can make that claim.

Pinto 11-04-2003 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NataSatan666
Tuckers going nowhere and Neidermayer faked an injury a few years ago so he wouldn't be traded to Toronto for Potvin. I highly doubt this trade rumor has any merit

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACC1224
unless you're JF jr I can't see how you can make that claim.

It was actually in the paper a few months ago

ACC1224 11-04-2003 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinto80
It was actually in the paper a few months ago

and of course the papers are always accurate when it comes to who is available and not available...was it the same article that said Neil Smith would be the Leafs next GM?

Seph 11-04-2003 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NataSatan666
LMFAO @ Tucker being garbage For the money and what you get on the table a better player cannot be had.

And won't be had Tuckers going NOWHERE

Off the top of my head, I'd take the following players over Tucker, regardless of age.

Tucker 1.6million this year.

kariya 1.2
kovalchuk 1.1
havlat 1.5
scatchard 1.4
st. louis 1.5
rachunek .5
jackman .8

and that was just off the top of my head. i'm sure there are plenty of others.

loveshack2 11-04-2003 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seph
Off the top of my head, I'd take the following players over Tucker, regardless of age.

Tucker 1.6million this year.

kariya 1.2
kovalchuk 1.1
havlat 1.5
scatchard 1.4
st. louis 1.5
rachunek .5
jackman .8

and that was just off the top of my head. i'm sure there are plenty of others.

Well of course when you don't include bonuses it looks bad. Most of those players you listed make more in bonuses each year than they do in base salary.

Not saying that I agree with NataSatan666, but let's at least be honest here.

Gibsons Finest 11-04-2003 02:27 PM

Niedermayer at the moment is the Ducks' leading scorer, as Forbesy mentioned. We've likely witnessed his rebirth, so I'll say he'll stay in Anaheim for quite a while.

In this case, Vishnevski could probably get Tucker nearly straight up. Vishnevski would probably be more valuble to the Leafs than Tucker would be.

andora 11-04-2003 04:53 PM

ARE YOU EFFING ******** ME...

*faints onto leaf blanket*

Seph 11-04-2003 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loveshack2
Well of course when you don't include bonuses it looks bad. Most of those players you listed make more in bonuses each year than they do in base salary.

Not saying that I agree with NataSatan666, but let's at least be honest here.

just pointing out the rather large hyperbole of the original poster, not trying to make his contract look bad -- it's actually quite reasonable for what he brings to the table, it's just not the huge bargain it was made out to be.


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