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John Flyers Fan 11-04-2003 09:25 AM

Messier lovefest
 
Since everyone is having the Messier lovefest today as he is set to become the 2nd all-time leading scorer.

The question of the day becomes, would you like to see him pass Gordie Howe as the all-time leader in gamed played ???

He is currently 77 games behind (regular season only).

To pass Howe would need that he would need to come back and play again next year.

Davisian 11-04-2003 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
To pass Howe would need that he would need to come back and play again next year.

I'm all for it.. On the Oilers..

Love the guy, but the needs of the team outweigh the personal accomplishments, and the Rangers need to move on..

Melrose_Jr. 11-04-2003 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
To pass Howe would need that he would need to come back and play again next year.

That's if there is any hockey next year. And maybe he's injured this season or the next and it actually takes yet another year to log all 77 games. Before you know it, Messier's gobbling up a roster spot in pursuit of his own agenda into the 2006 season. Where does the madness end?

JR#9* 11-04-2003 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davisian
I'm all for it.. On the Oilers..

Love the guy, but the needs of the team outweigh the personal accomplishments, and the Rangers need to move on..

Nobody knows what the team will look like by next year.It could be all new faces and a younger group if they lower the required UFA age in the new CBA but either way if Mess is on a 4th line with 2 3rd-4th liners like he is now with Simon-Barnaby I'd have no problem with it personally but I could care less about the games played part of it.

Mess in limited minutes and with the right linemates still IS a asset as he has shown in his limited play thus far.

And being that you don't develop kids on the 4th line, especially kids like Moore then it's not as if he is blocking some kids development if he is deployed as a 4th line center.

Basically it depends how this season shapes up and what transpires next summer before any fair decision can be made but to me it would have nothing to do with any further stats and I really don't think that GPed would be a big stat Mess were eager to catch..

John Flyers Fan 11-04-2003 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
That's if there is any hockey next year. And maybe he's injured this season or the next and it actually takes yet another year to log all 77 games. Before you know it, Messier's gobbling up a roster spot in pursuit of his own agenda into the 2006 season. Where does the madness end?

I'm going under the assumption that there is hockey next year.

it would have to be a major injury for Mess to not get the reord next year, even if he misses 20 games this year, he'll be within 40 of Howe.

I'm not saying I'm for it, just trying to get opinions.

shmekel 11-04-2003 09:46 AM

I'd like to think that passing Howe on the all-time scoring list will be enough.










Please.

True Blue 11-04-2003 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR#9
Mess in limited minutes and with the right linemates still IS a asset as he has shown in his limited play thus far.

Is it just me or is Messier treated this year as anything, BUT a 4th liner. There have been several nights that he has received more ice time than either Holik or Lindros. Granted, he may play with 4th liners, but what 4th liner plays all 2 minutes of a PP (as Mess has this year on occasion)?. He averages as many minutes as Anson Carter. As a matter of fact, his average ice time is 4th on the team behind Kovalev, Nedved, and Holik. And Holik averages slightly over a minute of ice time more than Mess. Does that sound like a guy that is a 4th liner?
Sorry, I will pay tribute to Mess when he becomes #2. But while he is here (and while Jackass is here), Messier will NEVER be just a 4th liner. He will never skate the time that Larianov is skating (around 12 minutes a game). He will never take off the back-end of a back-to-back night (like Yzerman does). He may be a 4th liner in name, but reality is far different.

JR#9* 11-04-2003 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Is it just me or is Messier treated this year as anything, BUT a 4th liner. There have been several nights that he has received more ice time than either Holik or Lindros. Granted, he may play with 4th liners, but what 4th liner plays all 2 minutes of a PP (as Mess has this year on occasion)?. He averages as many minutes as Anson Carter. As a matter of fact, his average ice time is 4th on the team behind Kovalev, Nedved, and Holik. And Holik averages slightly over a minute of ice time more than Mess. Does that sound like a guy that is a 4th liner?
Sorry, I will pay tribute to Mess when he becomes #2. But while he is here (and while Jackass is here), Messier will NEVER be just a 4th liner. He will never skate the time that Larianov is skating (around 12 minutes a game). He will never take off the back-end of a back-to-back night (like Yzerman does). He may be a 4th liner in name, but reality is far different.

The ONLY reason Yzerman takes off consecutive nights is b/c of his bum knee and Larionov skates more than 12 minutes a night when healthy and is even more of a specialty player than Mess is at this point.

As for Mess not being a 4th liner this year, when everybody was in Mess was a 4th liner getting little to no PP time and also skating with 4th line linem,ates as even you just said.It is far from his fault that thus far his line has been the most consistent and hard working of the group to start the season and to cite him staying on for a full 2 minute PP is ridiculous as iit was after Lindros was out of the lineup and occured ONE time when the NYR's needed a goal and Mess ALONG with the other 4 guys stayed on for the full 2 minutes.

Larry Melnyk 11-04-2003 10:10 AM

I personally couldn't give a crap about any of Messier's records, I just care what he can do for us now...And though I didn't want him (and still don't because he's Sather's solution to almost everything)I gotta admit him and his line has been doing fine...

But if he wants to pass the games played record, that's also fine, just as long as it is anyhwhere but New York...Although he's still good on the ice in stretches, this team needs to move on in philosophy and the Locker room, where Messier's presence prevents (and will prevent) it .....Moot point because I guess Mess will stay as long as Mess wants until Jim Dolan loses the team...

Edge 11-04-2003 10:54 AM

so long as he stays within the frames set this season {the occasional game with more icetime but an average of around 15 ish} i dont have a problem with playing even next year.

As i said in another post, that is a big "if". but i think it says something that his line has been the best out there this season many nights.

honestly if his icetime is monitored i cant see any problem with him playing into next season.

Jackson Ranger 11-04-2003 11:06 AM

IMO, this should be Mess' last year. Let him come in #2 in points and ride off into the sunset chasing some giant marlins. When his hands are worse than Chris Simon's, he should retire and I think that is the case now.

I just hope he announces his retirement this year so the Rangers could have a Mark Messier night on March 31st against Buffalo...because I've got those tickets. :D

My only concern is, the Rangers not making the playoffs and Mess not getting that final chance to "lead" the team into the playoffs and he decides to return for ANOTHER season. :shakehead

Edge 11-04-2003 11:15 AM

well for all the "good" hands we have on this team, messier is leading in goals, lundmark has as many as carter and moore has shown more in 2 games then 1/2 this roster.

like i said, if mess continues to be regulated {doesnt mean 10 mins everynight, it just means NOT 20 mins a night} than he will be okay. if they can stay with that plan there is no reason to think he can't honestly get 20 goals and 40 points and be effective.

if that's not going to happen then retirement is a better option because his use wont be as great.

Brooklyn Ranger 11-04-2003 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackson Ranger
IMO, this should be Mess' last year. Let him come in #2 in points and ride off into the sunset chasing some giant marlins. When his hands are worse than Chris Simon's, he should retire and I think that is the case now.

I just hope he announces his retirement this year so the Rangers could have a Mark Messier night on March 31st against Buffalo...because I've got those tickets. :D

My only concern is, the Rangers not making the playoffs and Mess not getting that final chance to "lead" the team into the playoffs and he decides to return for ANOTHER season. :shakehead

It's clear that Messier won't announce his retirement during the season. Don't get your hopes up.

Melrose_Jr. 11-04-2003 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge
As i said in another post, that is a big "if". but i think it says something that his line has been the best out there this season many nights.

honestly if his icetime is monitored i cant see any problem with him playing into next season.

What it says is that we're throwing money and roster spots away on guys who cannot get the job done. Whether Messier can do the job is not the question. The question is, why the hell do we need Messier to do the job when we've got Lindros, Nedved, Holik, Lundmark and Carter (to some extent) already under contract at the same position he plays?!?!?

If there's a need to bring Messier back, fine, but there wasn't a need this year and there probably won't be a need next year. By continuing this swan song of his, he's only perpetuating the problem of this team's inability to integrate youth into the lineup.

Edge 11-04-2003 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
What it says is that we're throwing money and roster spots away on guys who cannot get the job done. Whether Messier can do the job is not the question. The question is, why the hell do we need Messier to do the job when we've got Lindros, Nedved, Holik, Lundmark and Carter (to some extent) already under contract at the same position he plays?!?!?

If there's a need to bring Messier back, fine, but there wasn't a need this year and there probably won't be a need next year. By continuing this swan song of his, he's only perpetuating the problem of this team's inability to integrate youth into the lineup.


I dont even count lindros, unless he comes back on fire and stays there he is about 6 months away from having his option declines.

Carter hasn't played center in a looong time, that is not an option.

Nedved is fine as is Holik.

Lundmark i think has a future at center but it's not right now, they moved him to RW in hartford for a reason and having seen him i like him as a right wing. if he does move back to center it wont be for a while and it has more to do with his development then messier being on the squad.

i dont know whom you'd prefer to have at center instead of mess because we aren't exactly stacked, despite the names on the roster. more shouldnt be a 4th line center and murray is no where near ready yet {besides i think he is a better winger}.

personally if i had to make a decision i'd rather not have lindros and have nedved, moore,holik and messier in that order.

now i dont think messier should get 20 mins a night for 80 of 82 games but right now him and holik have been this teams best two centers.

ddheyman 11-04-2003 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Is it just me or is Messier treated this year as anything, BUT a 4th liner. There have been several nights that he has received more ice time than either Holik or Lindros. Granted, he may play with 4th liners, but what 4th liner plays all 2 minutes of a PP (as Mess has this year on occasion)?. He averages as many minutes as Anson Carter. As a matter of fact, his average ice time is 4th on the team behind Kovalev, Nedved, and Holik. And Holik averages slightly over a minute of ice time more than Mess. Does that sound like a guy that is a 4th liner?
Sorry, I will pay tribute to Mess when he becomes #2. But while he is here (and while Jackass is here), Messier will NEVER be just a 4th liner. He will never skate the time that Larianov is skating (around 12 minutes a game). He will never take off the back-end of a back-to-back night (like Yzerman does). He may be a 4th liner in name, but reality is far different.

I agree in regards to fourth line minutes.

However, why would we complain about his minutes so far this year, he and his linemates are even or plus in EVERY game this year so far. If he keeps this up (which is very doubtful) I think we would all be thrilled with his production.

ddheyman 11-04-2003 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge
I dont even count lindros, unless he comes back on fire and stays there he is about 6 months away from having his option declines.

Carter hasn't played center in a looong time, that is not an option.

Nedved is fine as is Holik.

Lundmark i think has a future at center but it's not right now, they moved him to RW in hartford for a reason and having seen him i like him as a right wing. if he does move back to center it wont be for a while and it has more to do with his development then messier being on the squad.

i dont know whom you'd prefer to have at center instead of mess because we aren't exactly stacked, despite the names on the roster. more shouldnt be a 4th line center and murray is no where near ready yet {besides i think he is a better winger}.

personally if i had to make a decision i'd rather not have lindros and have nedved, moore,holik and messier in that order.

now i dont think messier should get 20 mins a night for 80 of 82 games but right now him and holik have been this teams best two centers.

I was going to reply, but your last several said it much more succintly than I could have, so instead ... I agree.

Belfast Giant 11-04-2003 02:50 PM

Dont know why some people are so hard on him, espically fans of his team. He posted 40 points last year, better than many other rangers who are expected to score more and are younger.

From the 4th line getting 40+ points isnt to bad, hes been superb this year so far. Age doesnt matter, its how you plays that matters and if he, the coach and the facts show its not bad then theres no need for him to go.

Brooklyn Ranger 11-04-2003 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belfast Giant
Dont know why some people are so hard on him, espically fans of his team. He posted 40 points last year, better than many other rangers who are expected to score more and are younger.

From the 4th line getting 40+ points isnt to bad, hes been superb this year so far. Age doesnt matter, its how you plays that matters and if he, the coach and the facts show its not bad then theres no need for him to go.

Two things: first, Messier got as many points as he did last season because he was playing many more minutes than your average forth line center. And very honestly, he was playing way too many minutes to be very effective. There were several reasons why he ended up logging so many minutes: there were injuries (and a real lack of depth in the organization) and there were a number of players (starting with Lindros and Holik) who were not terribly effective last season. There was also the fact that Sather and Co felt (and of course still feel) a huge amount of pressure to make the playoffs at just about any cost and reacted to that pressure by playing veterans--and especially Messier--regardless of their performance. Messier is always ready and willing to take a shift and always plays with intensity and determination. But, he doesn't have the ability to go out and play 20 minutes night in and night out and be effective, much less dominating. When the coaching staff is not overusing him, he is a real asset as far as I'm concerned. However, if you see him playing more than 15 minutes (and some people here will argue that even that is way too much) on a regular basis, then there is a deeper problem with the Rangers. Either important players are not playing well or they are injured and the coaching staff is not comfortable with any of the possible replacements for whatever reason.

Some people here will argue that it's Messier dictating his playing time--I am not one of them. Others will argue that his time is past and he should step aside and allow new (hopefully young) players to take his place. Some will argue that he is overpaid (although Larry Brooks in the NYPost wrote recently that almost all of his salary for this season is deferred) and the money can be spent better elsewhere.

Messier is no longer the go-to guy he was in his prime. It's up to the coaching staff to pick his spots so he will continue to be effective. Playing him too much will probably mean that the Rangers miss the playoffs again--not because of Messier but because players like Lindros don't produce for whatever reason. Either way he will continue to be one of the main lighting rods for this organization.

KING 11-05-2003 02:57 AM

Messier still giving Garden reason to cheer
 
http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsro...0105carp2.html

Belfast Giant 11-05-2003 03:56 AM

From what ive seen this year, in no way is it time for him to step down, the rangers need him right now.

33teddy33 11-05-2003 04:22 AM

http://www.newyorkrangers.com/faceof...?gametype=post
MESSIER SEALS WIN; PASSES HOWE ON NHL'S ALL-TIME POINTS LIST
It was another magical night for Mark Messier and Madison Square Garden. The Blueshirt captain tallied a pair of goals to lead the Rangers to a 3-0 win over the Dallas Stars on Tuesday, while moving past Gordie Howe into sole possession of second place on the NHLís all-time points list. Messier tied Howe at 1,850 with his second period tally and sealed the shutout with a shorthanded empty-netter with five seconds remaining in the game to slide into the illustrious #2 spot with his 1,851st point.

"I have a tremendous amount of respect for Gordie (Howe)," Messier said after the game. "I guess to put myself in a position to pass him, I think it's just due to longevity, good fortune and tremendous people around me and being able to play for a while and individual statistics are going to accumulate. But it wasn't something I set out to do."

"I definitely wanted to do it in this rink (Madison Square Garden)," he added. "I think you only have one opportunity to do things like this and I wasn't going to jeopardize anything not to do it at the home rink, obviously, but to do it here is special for me. On a personal note, the relationship that I have had with this city, the organization, the hockey fans, the people - like I said, it's been a life-altering experience for me. Coming to New York in the first place in 1991, and having an opportunity to come back again, it's been a real life experience for me."



RANK PLAYER G A PTS
1 Wayne Gretzky 894 1963 2857

2 Mark Messier 682 1169 1851

3 Gordie Howe 801 1049 1850

Melrose_Jr. 11-05-2003 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge
personally if i had to make a decision i'd rather not have lindros and have nedved, moore,holik and messier in that order.

But we do have Lindros. I'm just trying to point out that in the Ranger heirarchy of needs this summer, a center who could/should log 2nd/3rd line minutes wasn't even a consideration. And if Sather REALLY wanted a 4th liner who specializes in killing penalties, why not bring Donato back or sign Rheaume over the summer, someone who specializes in that role and does it well?

Alex Kovalev NYR 11-05-2003 07:58 AM

The only bad thing about last night was that there wasnt even a sellout at madison square garden last night too see this :shakehead

Edge 11-05-2003 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
But we do have Lindros. I'm just trying to point out that in the Ranger heirarchy of needs this summer, a center who could/should log 2nd/3rd line minutes wasn't even a consideration. And if Sather REALLY wanted a 4th liner who specializes in killing penalties, why not bring Donato back or sign Rheaume over the summer, someone who specializes in that role and does it well?

Because for as much flack as messier gets there is absolutely no one who is gonna lead this team. not lindros, not holik not even leetch. and all the top checking centers in the world won't make this team better {see Skrudland}.

The real problem with this team is it's lack of a first line center, not that messier is getting 16 minutes a night. in fact until recently the rangers were lucky to have more then one center playing a descent game at the same time.

for what it's worth i dont think getting rid of messier effects anyone like moore because messier isn't going to skate on a top scoring line.

however the constant efforts thrown at lindros DOES hold someone like moore out of the NHL.

but really the biggest problem with this team right now is on the left side. Rucinsky and Hlvac arent the answers today and they wont be tomorrow. that is a golden chance for someone like moore or lundmark to get some time but they don't.


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