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Marconius 11-06-2003 06:29 AM

Carter vs Dvorak
 
I'd be surprised if anyone of you knew who I am. I mostly lurk and when I do post it's usually on the Oilers board.
Anyways we over on the Oilers board are very happy with the Carter-Dvo trade, even though Dvorak hasn't scored yet. He's showing amazing speed and heart and he's probably been one of our top 3 forwards at this point, and thats no small feat since he hasn't scored yet.
So I got to wondering....
I wanted to check in with you guys and see how you felt about the trade. Like I said, the overwhelming majority over at the Oilers board feel we won the trade hands down. And I was just hoping for some balanced opinion.
Is this a deal where both teams won, are you happy with Carter? For those of you who have been following Dvorak thus far into the season, what do you think of his play? Can we count on him to start scoring? Or is this no-goal thing something thats haunted him for a while?
If I recall correctly Pisa also came over in the deal (At the time I was was very disapointed, I had high hoped for Pisa, he impressed me). I'm pretty certain he's no longer in the Rangers organization. What hapned to him? What did you guys get in return?

#37-#93-#27* 11-06-2003 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marconius
I'd be surprised if anyone of you knew who I am. I mostly lurk and when I do post it's usually on the Oilers board.
Anyways we over on the Oilers board are very happy with the Carter-Dvo trade, even though Dvorak hasn't scored yet. He's showing amazing speed and heart and he's probably been one of our top 3 forwards at this point, and thats no small feat since he hasn't scored yet.
So I got to wondering....
I wanted to check in with you guys and see how you felt about the trade. Like I said, the overwhelming majority over at the Oilers board feel we won the trade hands down. And I was just hoping for some balanced opinion.
Is this a deal where both teams won, are you happy with Carter? For those of you who have been following Dvorak thus far into the season, what do you think of his play? Can we count on him to start scoring? Or is this no-goal thing something thats haunted him for a while?
If I recall correctly Pisa also came over in the deal (At the time I was was very disapointed, I had high hoped for Pisa, he impressed me). I'm pretty certain he's no longer in the Rangers organization. What hapned to him? What did you guys get in return?

Showing amazing heart and speed is what Dvorak did here too but that only ended up producing 6 goals in 60 games. He gradually lost whatever was left of his confidence and started to be a liability. I would say he was our best PK coming into last season but that changed. After about 20 games or so it was apparent he needed a change of scenery. I hope he does well for you since I personally am a Dvorak fan but him not producing is a big red flag and what you say sounds eerily similar to what most Ranger fans were saying at the beginning of last year.

Carter has been equally invisible for the most part, he has picked it up a bit lately but I don't like how streaky he is and I think he's somewhat overrated.

Neither team won the deal, though it's too soon to say for sure. It'll end up being a wash imo.

Marconius 11-06-2003 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27
Showing amazing heart and speed is what Dvorak did here too but that only ended up producing 6 goals in 60 games. He gradually lost whatever was left of his confidence and started to be a liability. I would say he was our best PK coming into last season but that changed. After about 20 games or so it was apparent he needed a change of scenery. I hope he does well for you since I personally am a Dvorak fan but him not producing is a big red flag and what you say sounds eerily similar to what most Ranger fans were saying at the beginning of last year.

Carter has been equally invisible for the most part, he has picked it up a bit lately but I don't like how streaky he is and I think he's somewhat overrated.

Neither team won the deal, though it's too soon to say for sure. It'll end up being a wash imo.

Carter has always been streaky in Edmonton as well. One of the posters there did some statwork and it looked like Carter padded his stats against weaker teams and always seemed to go into a cold spell when we need scoring the most.
I was a fraid of the 'lack of production' thing being a history with Dvo. I don't know if its just high hopes, but so far it looks like hes getting chances, but just a bit snakebitten. Hes had like 3-4 goalposts allready. To be fair as well, He had some pretty intense family issues going on and missed a lot fo camp and preseason, so we're hoping hes going to be in top form soon

Davisian 11-06-2003 06:58 AM

I also think it will be a wash..

Devo's speed hasn't been replaced, and I thought he did a lot of other good things even when he wasn't scoring. But, I do like Carter's superior (to Dvorak) ability to fight through checks and cycle..

I personally would like to have 'em both..

This isn't yet another shot at Slats, but to me, a line of

Dvorak York Carter

would be a pleasure to watch for me..

nervousranger 11-06-2003 07:00 AM

I've always liked Carter although I could never understand why he's rated so high. At least he used to be. I think the Dvorak trade will come back to haunt us. When it comes to playoff time give me speed and effort you get in Dvorak. Chalk that one up to the Oilers.

rangers 11-06-2003 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27
Showing amazing heart and speed is what Dvorak did here too but that only ended up producing 6 goals in 60 games. He gradually lost whatever was left of his confidence and started to be a liability. I would say he was our best PK coming into last season but that changed. After about 20 games or so it was apparent he needed a change of scenery. I hope he does well for you since I personally am a Dvorak fan but him not producing is a big red flag and what you say sounds eerily similar to what most Ranger fans were saying at the beginning of last year.

Carter has been equally invisible for the most part, he has picked it up a bit lately but I don't like how streaky he is and I think he's somewhat overrated.

Neither team won the deal, though it's too soon to say for sure. It'll end up being a wash imo.

Dvorak is a good player, but he didn`t fit into the lineup. He`s a finesse player, flashy, fast and good stickhandling, but with Kovalev, Bure, Nedved and Mess ;) it just wasn`t room for him. Slats felt we needed a garbage player who could just put the puck in the net and he decided to go for Anson. Even though Carter haven`t produced very well here yet, he`ll get his 25 goals like he always does and I would rather have that than a Dvorak without confidence coming off an injury.

With Bure out for a long period of time it was great to get Carter as a replacement. Slats then replaced Dvorak with Hlavac and ding, a little downgrade from Dvorak to Hlavac, but a great addition in Anson more than makes up for it. It is in games like the one tonight we should expect Carter to get his goals so we`ll just have to wait and see what happens...

tony 11-06-2003 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marconius
Carter has always been streaky in Edmonton as well. One of the posters there did some statwork and it looked like Carter padded his stats against weaker teams and always seemed to go into a cold spell when we need scoring the most.
I was a fraid of the 'lack of production' thing being a history with Dvo. I don't know if its just high hopes, but so far it looks like hes getting chances, but just a bit snakebitten. Hes had like 3-4 goalposts allready. To be fair as well, He had some pretty intense family issues going on and missed a lot fo camp and preseason, so we're hoping hes going to be in top form soon

25 shots and no goals tells me he's more than snakebitten. after his knee injury he seemed reluctant to cut to the middle to get a better angle to shoot from. he'd try to use his speed to go wide around the d but all that resulted in was a bunch of bad angle shots not likely to beat even an average nhl goalie. i like dvorak a lot and i truly wish him well but for the type of player he was and should still be he should be showing more than amazing heart and speed.

#37-#93-#27* 11-06-2003 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marconius
Carter has always been streaky in Edmonton as well. One of the posters there did some statwork and it looked like Carter padded his stats against weaker teams and always seemed to go into a cold spell when we need scoring the most.
I was a fraid of the 'lack of production' thing being a history with Dvo. I don't know if its just high hopes, but so far it looks like hes getting chances, but just a bit snakebitten. Hes had like 3-4 goalposts allready. To be fair as well, He had some pretty intense family issues going on and missed a lot fo camp and preseason, so we're hoping hes going to be in top form soon

I think Dvo is beyond the point of being snake bitten. I truly hope however he does put it all together again. Before his injury, I really thought he would be a consistent 40 goal scorer at the peak of his career. Although I don't think he'd ever succeed again in New York, he's one guy I'd be very patient with.

York and Dvorak on the same line.. two of my favorite Rangers and probably the only two in recent years who played at 110% every game.. :cry:

Lundyfan 11-06-2003 07:32 AM

I'd have driven Dvo to the airport. I'm thrilled he's gone, getting Carter back was just a bonus. Dvo has great speed but he can't score to save his life.

#37-#93-#27* 11-06-2003 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rangers
Dvorak is a good player, but he didn`t fit into the lineup. He`s a finesse player, flashy, fast and good stickhandling, but with Kovalev, Bure, Nedved and Mess ;) it just wasn`t room for him. Slats felt we needed a garbage player who could just put the puck in the net and he decided to go for Anson. Even though Carter haven`t produced very well here yet, he`ll get his 25 goals like he always does and I would rather have that than a Dvorak without confidence coming off an injury.

With Bure out for a long period of time it was great to get Carter as a replacement. Slats then replaced Dvorak with Hlavac and ding, a little downgrade from Dvorak to Hlavac, but a great addition in Anson more than makes up for it. It is in games like the one tonight we should expect Carter to get his goals so we`ll just have to wait and see what happens...

He didn't fit into the line up? He played with Nedved, yes the same Nedved that he had his career year with. It all went down hill when he got injured. He lost his confidence, his hands and most of all his aggression which really hurt him. I think once he got out of NY he got his confidence back but I would bet his hands and aggression is still and always will be lacking.

We also didn't have Kovalev and Bure for most of when Dvo was here. His troubles extend to the season before not just last year.

Marconius 11-06-2003 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rangers
Dvorak is a good player, but he didn`t fit into the lineup. He`s a finesse player, flashy, fast and good stickhandling, but with Kovalev, Bure, Nedved and Mess ;) it just wasn`t room for him. Slats felt we needed a garbage player who could just put the puck in the net and he decided to go for Anson. Even though Carter haven`t produced very well here yet, he`ll get his 25 goals like he always does and I would rather have that than a Dvorak without confidence coming off an injury.

With Bure out for a long period of time it was great to get Carter as a replacement. Slats then replaced Dvorak with Hlavac and ding, a little downgrade from Dvorak to Hlavac, but a great addition in Anson more than makes up for it. It is in games like the one tonight we should expect Carter to get his goals so we`ll just have to wait and see what happens...

Seems to me you guys are seeing a totally different Carter then the one who played in Edmonton. In Edmonton Carter was routinely criticized for his inability (lack of desire, maybe?) to fight through checks. as well he was never known ot score the garbage goals. Carter's style always had him circling up in the slot waiting to 1-time a quick pass. WE always though of him as a shooter not a mucker...

rangers 11-06-2003 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27
He didn't fit into the line up? He played with Nedved, yes the same Nedved that he had his career year with. It all went down hill when he got injured. He lost his confidence, his hands and most of all his aggression which really hurt him. I think once he got out of NY he got his confidence back but I would bet his hands and aggression is still and always will be lacking.

We also didn't have Kovalev and Bure for most of when Dvo was here. His troubles extend to the season before not just last year.

Yea, I know his problems started the season before last year, but getting Kovalev in to the lineup to play with Nedved sort of left Dvorak out especially when it became obvious that he wasn`t producing...

Marconius 11-06-2003 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony
25 shots and no goals tells me he's more than snakebitten. after his knee injury he seemed reluctant to cut to the middle to get a better angle to shoot from. he'd try to use his speed to go wide around the d but all that resulted in was a bunch of bad angle shots not likely to beat even an average nhl goalie. i like dvorak a lot and i truly wish him well but for the type of player he was and should still be he should be showing more than amazing heart and speed.

Agreed. At this point we're hoping Dvo can contribute much need offense. We are not in the postiion to have our 'scorers' not score. :D
But he looks like at the very least he's going to turn into a solid 2-way presence

#37-#93-#27* 11-06-2003 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rangers
Yea, I know his problems started the season before last year, but getting Kovalev in to the lineup to play with Nedved sort of left Dvorak out especially when it became obvious that he wasn`t producing...

That only excuses Dvo for maybe 10 games. What were you saying in February, half a season over, still only 6 goals in 50 games plus whatever he did the year before.

#37-#93-#27* 11-06-2003 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marconius
Agreed. At this point we're hoping Dvo can contribute much need offense. We are not in the postiion to have our 'scorers' not score. :D
But he looks like at the very least he's going to turn into a solid 2-way presence

btw- How's Yorkie doing?

rangers 11-06-2003 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27
That only excuses Dvo for maybe 10 games. What were you saying in February, half a season over, still only 6 goals in 50 games plus whatever he did the year before.

So Sather goes out looking for a replacement on Nedved`s right wing. He finds Kovalev which is supposed to be a true superstar, the same Kovalev who are putting up huge amount of points in Pittsburgh, trades for him and what is he then supposed to do with Dvorak? Dvorak have not been producing and hasn`t been the same sort of player he was before his injury. Slats already know something is seriously wrong with Bure`s knee and goes out shopping for a big, scoring RW to play with Lindros when Bure goes down. He finds Carter available and trades Dvorak and Cross for Carter and Pisa...

Looking back at the deal I`d do the same deal again right now.

#37-#93-#27* 11-06-2003 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rangers
So Sather goes out looking for a replacement on Nedved`s right wing. He finds Kovalev which is supposed to be a true superstar, the same Kovalev who are putting up huge amount of points in Pittsburgh, trades for him and what is he then supposed to do with Dvorak? Dvorak have not been producing and hasn`t been the same sort of player he was before his injury. Slats already know something is seriously wrong with Bure`s knee and goes out shopping for a big, scoring RW to play with Lindros when Bure goes down. He finds Carter available and trades Dvorak and Cross for Carter and Pisa...

Looking back at the deal I`d do the same deal again right now.

Um I'm not sure what your point is. I never said the deal was bad.

rangers 11-06-2003 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27
Um I'm not sure what your point is. I never said the deal was bad.

I know. Just tried to tell you why I didn`t think Dvorak fitted into the lineup that`s all...

It was more written as a response to Marconius who asked for our opinions on the deal.

pld459666 11-06-2003 08:14 AM

.
 
While I like both players, I believe that Devo's 31 goal season was an abberation as opposed to what you will get from him on a regular basis.

Not saying that what you will get is bad, but don't expect more than the 15-25 goal output that he's displayed in every other season he's played.

The problem I have, rather had, was that his defence started to wane after the injury and he seemed lost out there.

He's not physical, although he's not timid. He's not as much of a scoring threat regardless of his speed and his defensive abilities have diminished somewhat making him a liability out on the ice.

At least that was what he was when we traded him.

Carter on the other hand, is not a speed player like Devo, but he's physically built to play the eastern conference style better than Devo.

The thing with the Rangers this season so far is that the guys you wouldn't expect to be carrying this team are the guys that are getting it done. I would expect that when the worm turns things may be a bit different.

But I also expect Devo to get hie 15+ goals this season as well.

fuhr 11-06-2003 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27
btw- How's Yorkie doing?


I guess Dunham is making me eat crow so far with his performance!!!!York has played OK he has 8 points but it's been a very quiet 8 points. Which is good because he'll get hot at some point just like last year and carry the Oil for awhile. Plus MacTavish loves him to death and will play him in all situation no matter of how he's playing. Any new news on Lindros? Are they still shooting for the Flyers game?

Fletch 11-06-2003 08:21 AM

Hard to say...
 
Devo wasn't doing it in New York anymore and I don't know if he was going to come around here. I liked Devo a lot. Lot of speed...lot of chances...good at both ends and an effective penalty killer.

Through the first, say, 7 games, Carter pretty much blew. Since playing with Holik, against top lines, he's been quite effective. If he can remain effective going against top lines, and the Rangers' other right wings are going (Lundmark, if he remains on the right, and Kovalev), then the trade may've very well worked out for both teams.

With that said, nobody's won this trade yet and it could work out for both teams.

elphy101 11-06-2003 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27
btw- How's Yorkie doing?

Yorkie's been solid. He struggled out of the gate because he had to adjust to playing center and also had to have his arm surgically repaired in the offseason. He missed a good portion of training camp because of that.

But now he's coming back into form. In the last 4 or 5 games, he might well have been the Oilers best forward. The second line of
Torres-York-Dvorak is by far the best line on the team right now.

Davisian 11-06-2003 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphy101
The second line of
Torres-York-Dvorak is by far the best line on the team right now.

That is one quick, tenacious forechecking line.. I'm jealous..

Marconius 11-06-2003 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27
btw- How's Yorkie doing?

York is doing well. Had a bit of a slow start to the season, but he was unquestionably our mvp last season and is looking to regain top form with, I believe, 8pts in 11 games.
Glad to see Poti lit it up last year for you guys, but we were all EXTREMELY happy with the trade....perhaps one of those rare trades where both teams win (cause there was no way Poti was putting up ppoints in Edmonton anymore)

Actually York has shown some good chemistry with York the last couple games they were paire dup. Have they played together before?

Fletch 11-06-2003 09:08 AM

I assume you mean Dvorak...
 
but in reality, York can fit into anywhere, even most overhead luggage racks. He's very versatile. He played a bit with Dvorak here, but very little. He works so hard that he can adapt to most styles. Glad to see him working out for y'all.


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