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-   -   Ok so we are having trouble playin youth... (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=26816)

RGF 11-09-2003 12:08 PM

Ok so we are having trouble playin youth...
 
but does anyone ever think sather is just ssaving his kids for after the possible CBA/lockout..we have all seen sather add young kids who, many of them, could be great players...along with this years draft picks and lundmark and hopefully a returning healthy blackburn...we should be set up.

i love watching moore and lundmark shine...but theyre time is coming...murray will be here tyutin will be stals, petterstrom, crabb, baranka, lampan, lawson/ortmeyer, wiseman...+ jessiman, walsh(nd player having a good year)...taylor and geunin are doing well..

are future picks will hopefully supplement what we have, and if we miss the playoffs im positive sather will trade MnM. and others for promising players..

well be a different team soon. we have seen sather offer shortterm contracts to his vets so i think well see new blood over the next few years

nyr5186 11-09-2003 12:21 PM

What makes you think that just because Sather has signed many vets to short-term contracts, he wont go out and do the same thing next year? When has he ever shown any confidence in the kids by letting them earn spots in the lineup instead of automatically sealing their fate before the season by signing Rucinsky, Hlavac, and Simon?

Until proven otherwise, the same thing that has happened to Lundmark, Moore, and Malhotra will happen in the future to Jessiman, Baranka, and Murray.

Edge 11-09-2003 12:29 PM

i dont believe he is saving anything. we arent talking an 18 and 19 year old here, we're talking 22 and 23. how much longer do we wanna save these kids?

Lundyfan 11-09-2003 01:31 PM

Sather can't coach anymore therefore he goes with what he knows. Overpaid, washed up, stars. If Lundmark, Moore and the kids in Hartford were smart they'd be begging for a trade, NOW.

barnaby63 11-09-2003 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lundyfan
Sather can't coach anymore therefore he goes with what he knows. Overpaid, washed up, stars. If Lundmark, Moore and the kids in Hartford were smart they'd be begging for a trade, NOW.

who exactly is washed up and overpaid besides messier?

barnaby63 11-09-2003 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shapa999
Half the team is overpaid.

great answer, i asked WHO is overpaid and washed up. i dont want a blanket answer either.

Kodiak 11-09-2003 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnaby63
great answer, i asked WHO is overpaid and washed up. i dont want a blanket answer either.

I'll field this one.

<b>Overpaid:</b>
Carter
Rucinsky
de Vries

<b>Washed up:</b>
Simon
Mironov
Hlavac

<b>Washed up and Overpaid:</b>
Kasparaitis
Holik
Malakhov
Lindros
and of course, Messier

That leaves Barnaby, Bouchard, Kovalev, LaCouture, Leetch, Lundmark, Nedved, Poti (though some would argue he's overpaid), Purinton, Dunham, and Markkanen as not overpaid and/or washed up.

Edge 11-09-2003 04:02 PM

Greg Devries is overpayed.

Chris Simon is overpaid and past his prime.

Brian Leetch isn't overpaid but is past his prime.

Bobby Holik is overpaid.

Martin Rucinsky is overpaid and past his prime.

Ditto for Hlvac though he's not old he's clearly not the player he was a few years ago.

Lindros is overpaid and past his prime.

Malakhov is overpaid and past his prime.

Ditto for Mironov.

Lundmark and Moore have proven they can play in the NHL.

Tyutin and Lampman will probably skate in the NHL.

Lacouture deserves better than 2 minutes a night.

ragfan 11-09-2003 04:14 PM

With all due respect, I don't think it is time to count Hlavac out just yet. Give him some time. When he was first traded to the Rangers, it took him some time before he found his "groove." I don't know why Sather, after Hlavac has his best game of teh season of Thursday, would bench him the next day.

dedalus 11-09-2003 04:26 PM

This from today's Times:

"Lundmark admitted to being frustrated with his lack of ice time; he was on the ice for less than three minutes yesterday..

'I thought I was playing pretty well,' Lundmark said. 'I thought it was the best hockey I've played here the last week or two weeks. But today was a big game and they wanted to go with that lineup. That's the way it goes.'"

The message sent to "the future" from the general manager is this: You're not good enough. I don't trust you.

Just how long can even the most optimistic and resilient kid go through what Lundmark (Malhotra, Kloucek, Norstrom, etc.) is going through before he finally just throws up his hands and surrenders? Before he becomes despondent? Before management's statements about his shortcomings become a self-fulfilling prophecy?

This kid and Dom Moore have played well. They have earned ice time - certainly more than Hlavac and Carter - and yet their reward is to sit or to play in Hartford. How is that "saving the future"? How is that doing anything other than sending the message that the size of the contract is what matters first?

SingnBluesOnBroadway 11-09-2003 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ragfan
With all due respect, I don't think it is time to count Hlavac out just yet. Give him some time. When he was first traded to the Rangers, it took him some time before he found his "groove." I don't know why Sather, after Hlavac has his best game of teh season of Thursday, would bench him the next day.


He hasn't played well for two years now. This is not a give him time situation. It's a situation where he is on his last leg in the league and needs to prove himself. He has not earned the right to start slowly.

barnaby63 11-09-2003 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodiak
I'll field this one.

<b>Overpaid:</b>
Carter
Rucinsky
de Vries

so paying a 25-30 goal scorer 2.85 million is overpaying? Greg Devries is a solid 3rd defenseman and is getting paid 4.2,3.7 and so on for his contract. Rucinsky is making what? 1 million?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodiak
<b>Washed up:</b>
Simon
Mironov
Hlavac

simon is washed up? he is playing very well and is one of the team leaders in points and is on one of the most consistent lines on the team. but yea, he is washed up.

mironov has been very solid sans the first 2 games of the season. he hasnt made big mistakes and played good against the flyers yesterday.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodiak
<b>Washed up and Overpaid:</b>
Kasparaitis
Holik
Malakhov
Lindros
and of course, Messier

one bad year for lindros and he is washed up? he was playing well in pre-season and before he got injured. Holik isnt washed up, he is playing like he did in Jersey this year and since the rangers need a center like him they had to offer more than what toronto was offering. his contract also decreases year by year. ditto for kaspar.

klingsor 11-09-2003 05:21 PM

Sather is overpaid and washed up, too.

Kodiak 11-09-2003 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnaby63
so paying a 25-30 goal scorer 2.85 million is overpaying? Greg Devries is a solid 3rd defenseman and is getting paid 4.2,3.7 and so on for his contract. Rucinsky is making what? 1 million?

So would you say that Carter has been earning his paycheck as a Ranger? He hasn't been playing like a goalscorer here, and until he does score some goals, he's overpaid. de Vries has played well, but he's still not worth anywhere near $4 mil. Rucinsky is getting $1.5 mil, which is way too much for a worthless player like him.

Quote:

simon is washed up? he is playing very well and is one of the team leaders in points and is on one of the most consistent lines on the team. but yea, he is washed up.

mironov has been very solid sans the first 2 games of the season. he hasnt made big mistakes and played good against the flyers yesterday.
That Simon is one of the team leaders in points says more about the abysmal offense than it does about Simon's play. He's been better than expected, but he's still no where near a good addition.

Mironov has also been decent at times, but no where near as good as he should be. He sure was great when he gave up the game tying goal against Philly.

Quote:

one bad year for lindros and he is washed up? he was playing well in pre-season and before he got injured.
So what? Hlavac played well in preseason too. It doesn't mean a thing if you disappear when the games count for something. Lindros wasn't showing much before the injury.

Quote:

Holik isnt washed up, he is playing like he did in Jersey this year and since the rangers need a center like him they had to offer more than what toronto was offering. his contract also decreases year by year. ditto for kaspar.
Holik is NOT playing how he was in Jersey. Holik actually had enough motivation to hit people on a nightly basis in Jersey. He's brought his A game out twice this season, which is not nearly enough for how much he's getting paid.

And Kaspar is as one-dimensional as it gets. The only problem with that is that his dimension isn't offense or defense, it's physical play, which seems to have disappeared in NY. I don't care that his salary decreases every year. It's still too much for the minimal amount he contributes to the team.

Kodiak 11-09-2003 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klingsor
Sather is overpaid and wasked up, too.

BINGO! You hit the nail on the head with that one. You get a cookie. :rolly:

http://www.doitwithdairy.com/images/cookie.jpg

Edge 11-09-2003 11:17 PM

few comments

Hlvac hasn't played well for three years now. That doesn't exactly buy a shot to get off to a "slow" start.

Carter has always been one of the most overhyped players in a long time. He was overhyped in Washington, Boston and Edmonton. He scores in clumps and has always disappeared when the chips are down. Those 25 goal, 55 point seasons were the result of being with good talent on at least descent teams {or at the very least a descent line}. On his own he is a 20 goal, 40 point player.....maybe.

Lindros isn't washed up because of one year. Lindros is washed because he is a shell of his former self, and because he hasnt played at a higher level consistently since Bure's arrival back in march of 2002.

I dunno at what point he played "good" in the preseason either. in fact if i remember correctly lindros and rucinsky had one "good" game and were invisible for most of the rest, including training camp itself.

They both made the team for their names, if they were two 20 year old they'd have been playing in the AHL to start the season.

Lundmark and Moore have done everything asked of them and done it with limited icetime. Lundmark is already lost as of right now, i'll tell you that much. You can see it in his comment you can see the aggrivation. He got 2 1/2 minutes, i mean my god that is pathetic. That is Malhotra all over again. Two and a half minutes!!!!!

The fact that anyone hear can even justify Rucinsky or "patience" for Hlvac shows just how much these boards have changed in the past two years. Heck are we sinking that low now ourselves?!?!

if jamie were traded tomorrow i'd bet you anything he rips the rangers, and who can blame him. This team is a complete joke, an utter and complete joke. This team hasn't had anything even resembling a youth movement since the late 80's and early 90's when names like Leetch, Turcotte,Amonte,Weight,Zubov,Kovalev, etc. were thrown around.

Granted they were traded but it was that depth that one the rangers a cup and they've been forgetting that for 10 years now.

If Malhotra were given a fair chance, i'd bet you anything he could have been a productive player in this league. If he were actually developed i bet his career is a different story. fact is he lost too much development time. this isn't a college class kiddies, you lose that time and you DON'T get it back. the league doesnt work like that, it moves at a fast pace.

there is no reason that the ONLY return we could get for two former first round picks in their early 20's was Martin friggin Rucinsky. That shows me two things, that Sather really has sunk far since the 1990 season and this team sucks so bad at development that the best they can do for two first round picks is turn them into an aging winger who was already past his prime and whose only dimension was starting to look like a big fat goose egg.

Cmon people Sather got lucky in one draft, 1979. His picks in the following two years were good, but not enough to win a championship. Getting Gretzky as a gift for joining the league and the 1979 draft made that team. No other edmonton trade during that period made much of an impact and one needn't look further then the way Smith hosed him in the early 90's as prove of his capabilities as a GM. The only valuable asset he got was Weight and Marchant. And even those can't be considered total loses because the rangers won the cup with tik and mactavish. In return he lost Messier,Graves, Beukeboom, and Lowe he got Rice,Nichols,DeBrusk,Mallette,David Shaw and Roman Oksuita.

Come on now, this man's legacy has been overhyped for years.

Lundyfan 11-10-2003 04:03 AM

This a quote from Sather in today's paper....

Quote:

"Jamie gets the puck at center ice, and all he has to do is get the puck in deep. Instead, he tries to make a cute little pass. If he gets the puck in deep, the flow keeps going ahead. And he wonders why he doesn't play very much."

Amazing! He singles out Lundmark for ONE mistake yet Messier cost them a goal and coughed up the puck all game long and he doesn't say a word. Nice way to build confidence in the kids Slats.

SingnBluesOnBroadway 11-10-2003 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shapa999
2 years

What difference does it make? Its still a long enough period of time to deduce that this is not a slump and his play now is the rule not the exception to it.

Brooklyn Ranger 11-10-2003 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
What difference does it make? Its still a long enough period of time to deduce that this is not a slump and his play now is the rule not the exception to it.

But we're stuck with Hlavac now and might as well give him the same shot that we give older washed up veterans. I still say give him another 10 games with Nedved and Kovalev. Lundmark looked good with Lindros that one game, I'd move Lindros back to center with Lundmark and Moore--heck, maybe given Lindros' head he'd think he's back in his rookie season if he had some youth flanking him!

Edge 11-10-2003 11:29 AM

I apologize he's ENTERING his third unproductive year.

As for giving him a shot we can't keep doing this. Now if this were a guy who scored 25 goals last year then i can understand. For example i can understand giving Carter and Lindros more shots because they could score more recently.

Hlvac hasn't really been a scorer since 2001 and Rucinsky..... i cant even remember the last time i was even somewhat impressed with him.

This is crazy, you have two guys (moore and lundmark) who at the very least could learn to play the left side and would provide quickness and energy if nothing else.

Brooklyn Ranger 11-10-2003 11:52 AM

Come on Edge--I've been yakking for years about playing young players and how "salvation lies within" but I know that there is no way Sather is going to put two kids on the top two lines and leave them there long enough to get comfortable and productive. It ain't going to happen anymore than putting Moore and Lundmark with Lindros (which I have proposed too) is going to happen. And even if it does happen (not tonight, I haven't seen any pigs flying outside my window today), it won't last because some veteran will come back from injury and be rewarded with the spot.

Sather signed Hlavac and Rucinsky to be his top line wingers. Unless he goes out and either dredges up another waiver wire veteran to plug into that role or makes a trade, that's who's going to be playing here. And we might as well play Hlavac now. Letting him sit and rot on the sidelines will not help him regain his scoring touch (if it's still there).

Just another normal crazy day in Rangerland.

E-Train 11-10-2003 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger
Sather signed Hlavac and Rucinsky to be his top line wingers. Unless he goes out and either dredges up another waiver wire veteran to plug into that role or makes a trade, that's who's going to be playing here. And we might as well play Hlavac now. Letting him sit and rot on the sidelines will not help him regain his scoring touch (if it's still there).
.

Brooklyn- this comment is dead on. If Hlavac & Rucinsky continue their weak play, it will be another vet that the position will be handed to. Lundmark, Moore, Wiseman, etc. are in the wrong organization

Edge 11-10-2003 04:24 PM

Sadly i agree and am well aware of that much. But saying what i said almost feels therapeutic because otherwise it can just drive you crazy.

I am already resigned to the fact that if Lundmark is gonna salvage his career, it's going to be somewhere else.

I know this organization doesn't learn.

Sometimes you just have to vent because it makes so much sense it can just eat you up in time.

I am greatful that i grew up a fan of two teams, the oilers at the very least keep me interested because i see kids like Stoll, etc.

loyalties can only go so far, i am dangerously close to totally losing interest with this ranger team.

Brooklyn Ranger 11-10-2003 04:33 PM

Sad, I know how you feel.

riz 11-10-2003 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger
Sad, I know how you feel.

Can they setup some sort of a clinic for us Ranger fans. Especially us euro-fans who are listening to the second intermission, waiting for the kids to get the chance Glen promised, and watching the clock tick to 2AM when we need to get up at 6AM to head to the office ?

Sad, I know. But I can't help it. I've just got a thing for the Rangers.... :shakehead


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