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-   -   Begin: biggest surprise on offense? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=27138)

didjuicythat 11-10-2003 03:53 PM

Begin: biggest surprise on offense?
 
I told myself I wouldn't start any negative threads. There are already plenty of them, so I guess I will stick with the bright sides, as I have always been a positive fan. So, who are the players that caused in your opinion the biggest surprise on the Canadiens offensive lines up to now?

I think it's fair to say no one really expected Steve Begin to make such a tremendous job on the 4th line. We all knew he was a decent 4th liner, and the agitator we were in need of, but who could have told he would be so useful to our team? I mean, the guy's everywhere on the ice. His skating is above average, he's good on the PK unit, he's got the fire in his eyes... plus, he's not bad creating offense either. Steve's the kind of team player we need to build on, whatever people can say. He may not be the most talented, but he's certainly more devoted for our team than some overpaid underachievers, isn't he? Maybe I'm getting too excited about him, but I do feel he's currently more useful to our team than guys like Perreault, Audette and to a certain extent Zednik.

All in all, that was a tremendous move by Gainey. Begin and Langdon are proven momentum raisers in the league, and that's exactly the role they're currently playing in Montreal. I hope Begin keeps it up, and earns more ice time, because I'm pleased with the way he plays right now. Also, he's not afraid of telling the medias the real things after a loss. I've got a feeling he'll be a fan favorite in no time. Keep it up, Steve.

p.s. Did you see him beat the Sabres defenseman on an icing call? This is the kind of play that goes unoticed, but that's highly appreciated by the coaching staff. It shows he cares about the team.

Corey 11-10-2003 03:56 PM

Yes, Bégin has been an agreeable surprise, but on offense? Not really. He won't put up numbers.

Wildbeliefs 11-10-2003 04:05 PM

There might be a few negative threads, but there have also been quite a few praises for the usual suspects. Seeing as how praises are a good thing though, I don't mind repeating myself here... :)

Begin is great, no question about it. *knock on wood*He brings absolutely every element that I think the Habs were/are missing: energy, drive, toughness, etc. When I think back at guys like Blouin *shudder*, I really REALLY appreciate Begin's work on the fourth line. For the first time in a while, I actually LIKE the fourth line.

The other guy that really has impressed me so far is Ryder. Before this summer, I didn't even know who this kid was. Sure I heard his name being mentioned here and there, but I heard a heck of a lot more about Hossa, Perezhogin and Higgins. Then out of nowhere this unknown (to me) kid makes the lineup and brings so much energy that it's really damn hard not to notice him. I'm not sure if he'll run out of steam at some point, but until that happens, I'll enjoy the show...

montreal 11-10-2003 04:18 PM

Begin I am very impressed with. He's been great on the 4th line. But offense, no I don't see that. His best asset is his hitting. He knows how to throw the body around effectivly, and cleanly for the most part. It's great to see an actually 4th liner on the 4th line bringing energy and hititng everything in site, while being good on faceoffs and in his own end. I don't think his skating is great, but it works, and he has decent speed.

didjuicythat 11-10-2003 04:23 PM

Some of you guys partially missed my point. I know he is no offensive threat, but still, he has been more dangerous around the net than some overpaid underachievers (we won't give any names as we all know who I am talking about). In fact, my point was only to point out the obvious: not only is he playing his role perfectly, which is to hit and annoy players on the other teams, but he is also creating offense at some point and doing a fine job on the PK.

That's more than we expected from him, agreed?

CHareth 11-10-2003 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiggsFan
Some of you guys partially missed my point. I know he is no offensive threat, but still, he has been more dangerous around the net than some overpaid underachievers (we won't give any names as we all know who I am talking about). In fact, my point was only to point out the obvious: not only is he playing his role perfectly, which is to hit and annoy players on the other teams, but he is also creating offense at some point and doing a fine job on the PK.

That's more than we expected from him, agreed?

Well, not really. A good checking line forward will do those things, i.e., put pressure on the opposition, forecheck hard in the opposition's zone and cycle around the net. I think Begin is doing these things well, in addition to throwing the body and generally being a pest. But forechecking and cycling around the net should not be mistaken for creating offence. From the forecheck, of course there will be some good bounces and hopefully he'll contribute with a goal here and there, but he is certainly not going to be an offensive threat.

didjuicythat 11-10-2003 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anon
Well, not really. A good checking line forward will do those things, i.e., put pressure on the opposition, forecheck hard in the opposition's zone and cycle around the net. I think Begin is doing these things well, in addition to throwing the body and generally being a pest. But forechecking and cycling around the net should not be mistaken for creating offence. From the forecheck, of course there will be some good bounces and hopefully he'll contribute with a goal here and there, but he is certainly not going to be an offensive threat.

It's pretty similar to what I was trying to say in my previous post...perhaps yours was explained with better terms. You can say whatever you want about that being a 4th liner's job though, I still think he brings more to the game right now than an ordinary NHL 4th line checking center, in terms of intangibles. I'm glad we have him, and I wouldn't be worried about giving him 3rd line responsibilities.

EquabaleAce 11-10-2003 06:46 PM

don't look now but i think we have a couple of decent lines

the 3rd has been relitavely the same for about 2 and a half years now and kill penalties pretty well

i like the 4th with langdon begin and ward, they hit and play an honest brand of hockey

good job guys

i hope the other 2 lines kick the o into gear again

Kirk Muller 11-10-2003 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
Habs need their prospects to start doing something. Komisarek, Hainsey, and Hossa should all at least be in the Habs lineup somewhere at this point in their careers. One of Higgins and Perezhogin should have made the roster out of camp. So far Hainsey and Hossa are on the roster and but havn't been major influences on the Habs. Komisarek isn't even with Montreal, he is down with Hamilton (god knows why). Even down in Hamilton Habs prospects arn't doing to well. Komisarek is doing OK with 5 points but Perezhogin has 4 points in 13 games and Higgins only has 4 points in seven games. I think Montreal has to develop prospects better before they can become an elite team and I use Elite becasue they have potential.

Why should they be on the roster, because you said so.

The fact you think Hossa hasn't had much of an influence destroys what credibility you have when regarding Montreal and their prospects.

Komisarek's main reason he is not in Montreal is 3 veteran, well paid right defenseman. He is playing for a Bulldogs team that has went through a ton of change in one season, which might be a reason for his ups and downs and 5 points in 13 games for a dman is still good.

Perezhogin is still adjusting to the North American style, plus he doesn't speak english much.

Higgins started the year in Montreal and didn't look out of place. He to is adjusting from college hockey.

If you are going by Bulldog stats especially early in the season to prove a point, it is ridiculous. The fact is, they are basically an expansion team in the sense that most of their players are new including a new head coach.

Medicine Twin 11-11-2003 02:02 AM

Just to get back to the point on Begin... ;)

I've been really impressed with his play so far too. But like someone else said, his best asset is his hitting. I don't mean to be negative but, what if he stops hitting after a while? It wouldn't be the first time we seen a player come in to our line-up hitting everything just to become a non-physical player a few months later... eg. Kilger, Rivet, etc.

Munchausen 11-11-2003 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
Habs need their prospects to start doing something. Komisarek, Hainsey, and Hossa should all at least be in the Habs lineup somewhere at this point in their careers. One of Higgins and Perezhogin should have made the roster out of camp. So far Hainsey and Hossa are on the roster and but havn't been major influences on the Habs. Komisarek isn't even with Montreal, he is down with Hamilton (god knows why). Even down in Hamilton Habs prospects arn't doing to well. Komisarek is doing OK with 5 points but Perezhogin has 4 points in 13 games and Higgins only has 4 points in seven games. I think Montreal has to develop prospects better before they can become an elite team and I use Elite becasue they have potential.

That's such a disconnected POV really.

Higgins = 1st pro year/20yo/3rd line center in Hamilton.

Perezhogin = 1st pro year/2nd line/needs to adjust to NA style which will take probably 1 year.

Komisarek = victim of the veteran logjam on the right side in Montreal (who do you send in the minors to play him? Rivet, Brisebois or Quintal?)

Hossa = 1st NHL likely complete season (are the Sedins busts?). Hossa looks good out there, production will come with time. He's not on the 2nd line for nothing.

Hainsey: Talent is there, but attitude is a concern. It will take him more time to reach his full potential, if he ever acheives such a thing.

Added to that:

Plekanec: Doing extremely well in Hamilton

Balej: Night and day kind of improvement over last year.

Ryder: One more quality prospect nobody expected to do anything that looks extremely promising.

KEY: Prospects don't become impact players after 10-20 games in the NHL, sometimes it takes a full season, sometimes it takes three. The key for the Habs right now is to play their youth (like they're doing) and let them develop at the NHL level. Wait a year or two before starting searching for any kind of panic button.

AK-47 11-11-2003 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corey
Yes, Bégin has been an agreeable surprise, but on offense? Not really. He won't put up numbers.


Exactly, he's a fourth liner that provides energy and grit. To that extent, he has been great. Besides, with this kind of player, points are a bonus.

danboulie 11-11-2003 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiggsFan

p.s. Did you see him beat the Sabres defenseman on an icing call? This is the kind of play that goes unoticed, but that's highly appreciated by the coaching staff. It shows he cares about the team.

I sure did.
I really enjoy the intensity and hustle that this guy shows. The Habs finally have a bonafide 4th line, and once they get rolling, the team should start performing better as well.

HabsBaby18* 11-11-2003 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiggsFan
I told myself I wouldn't start any negative threads. There are already plenty of them, so I guess I will stick with the bright sides, as I have always been a positive fan. So, who are the players that caused in your opinion the biggest surprise on the Canadiens offensive lines up to now?

I think it's fair to say no one really expected Steve Begin to make such a tremendous job on the 4th line. We all knew he was a decent 4th liner, and the agitator we were in need of, but who could have told he would be so useful to our team? I mean, the guy's everywhere on the ice. His skating is above average, he's good on the PK unit, he's got the fire in his eyes... plus, he's not bad creating offense either. Steve's the kind of team player we need to build on, whatever people can say. He may not be the most talented, but he's certainly more devoted for our team than some overpaid underachievers, isn't he? Maybe I'm getting too excited about him, but I do feel he's currently more useful to our team than guys like Perreault, Audette and to a certain extent Zednik.

All in all, that was a tremendous move by Gainey. Begin and Langdon are proven momentum raisers in the league, and that's exactly the role they're currently playing in Montreal. I hope Begin keeps it up, and earns more ice time, because I'm pleased with the way he plays right now. Also, he's not afraid of telling the medias the real things after a loss. I've got a feeling he'll be a fan favorite in no time. Keep it up, Steve.

p.s. Did you see him beat the Sabres defenseman on an icing call? This is the kind of play that goes unoticed, but that's highly appreciated by the coaching staff. It shows he cares about the team.


He his a normal 4th liner , but for him to put up points often , No. He is like Eric Landry when he came with the Habs 3 years ago :P. But he will slow down . Don't think that he need to have more ici time to like put him in a 2nd line because of his intensity :P.

He is Ok right now but not good , but i'm satistified with his work.

Mike8 11-11-2003 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
Ok, Hossa and his 2 points are extreamly important to Montreal, they would be last without him. The guy is so inconsistent it isn't funny. The guy is a fringe player anywhere other then Montreal.

Ridiculously stupid post. Watch him play first. He's been a model for CONSISTENCY this year and you label him inconsistent? Amusing to say the least.

KILLger 11-11-2003 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
Ok, Hossa and his 2 points are extreamly important to Montreal, they would be last without him. The guy is so inconsistent it isn't funny. The guy is a fringe player anywhere other then Montreal.

There's only offense to hockey eh? Shows your knowledge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
Perezhogin is nowhere close ready for the NHL, a year and a half in Hamilton should give him time to bulk up. Higgins hasn't been overly impressive yet, but has been OK. These two I don't really mind but its Hainsey, Hossa and Komisarek have no excusses.

Perezhogin isn't ready? Big deal, the guy's 20.

Higgins is also 20 and also in his first AHL year.. what do you expect from rookies? To burn the league? The need time to adapt... (moreso for Perezhogin)

Hainsey is in Montreal and showed he should be a good one. He has good offensive tools and size. He needs to work on consistency. There aren't many 22 years old dmen that are forces in the NHL. Dmen tend to take longer to develop.

Komisarek is behind Brisebois (who's played well), Rivet (who's got a big salary) and Quintal (who's got a big salary). We can't just send one of them to the minors for $$$ reasons, so Komo will be playing in the AHL until one goes. Komo was solid last year in his 20 some games played.

Hossa is playing the boards well and playing well defensively, he isn't putting up points right now but the whole team isn't. See Souray leading the team in goals...

Kirk Muller 11-11-2003 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
Ok, Hossa and his 2 points are extreamly important to Montreal, they would be last without him. The guy is so inconsistent it isn't funny. The guy is a fringe player anywhere other then Montreal.

Perezhogin is nowhere close ready for the NHL, a year and a half in Hamilton should give him time to bulk up. Higgins hasn't been overly impressive yet, but has been OK. These two I don't really mind but its Hainsey, Hossa and Komisarek have no excusses.

It is very apparent you haven't been watching Hossa play simply because your reasoning is he has 2 points. I think everyone knew this would be you response.

Watch the games, he has been stuck with Mike "I will pull a flashy move then lose the puck" Ribeiro, and Richard "whats an assist?" Zednik for the majority of the season. He is the defensive conscience on his line, wins the majority of battles along the boards, goes to the net. Basically he is what keeps the second line together and just hasn't capitalized on his chances yet, much like the team lately if you actually had a clue of the situation in Montreal. I will give you an example, think of him like the Sedin twins development and what the were doing last year. Similiar role, similiar play, just vastly different teams.

How many people have to tell you why Komisarek is not in Montreal. Again he is a right defenseman, behind 3 right defenseman who make close to 8-9 million combined. It is about money, not complicated.

Higgins has played 7 or 8 freaking games in the AHL. Has 4 points, big deal. Isn't it a just a little too early to a make much of a judgement on him. Same goes for Perezhogin.

Hainsey I agree, I honestly have never been that high on him. He lacks confidence, and intensity. He has it somewhere as showed by last years Calder Cup run, but he isn't able to "bring it" yet. It has more to do with Hainsey, the man, the character, then his actual talent.

Here is something also to consider. Think of Montreal's current roster. On the top two lines, if you had watched them play which I am highly doubting right now, you would see 3 youngsters in Ryder, Hossa, and Ribeiro. To fill out the other roster spots you would also usually see Jason Ward. Now add Hainsey to the mix. You have 5 young players who are in their first full year of NHL duty. It would be disaster if you had 3 of 6 of your top six forwards playing first full years on offense, and 2 of 6 dman playing their rookie seasons. Consider we are also talking about Montreal here, not Nashville or Columbus.

I suggest you go back, watch the Devils instead of playing armchair QB with tha habs prospects going simply by their point totals. Look into the situation of the team; money, depth, current rookies, and take a big look into Hamilton whose team is littered with first year pros.

Kirk Muller 11-11-2003 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
I said I expected one of Perezhogin or Higgins to make the team, I also said I don't really care what they are doing because it is their first years pro. The only ones I care about it Komisarek, Hainsey and Hossa. Hossa and Hainsey are doing nothing IMO of watching 4 habs games and Komisarek is stuck in Hamilton, probably a coaching mistake IMO. I would play him instead of one of those right dmen.

My point is that none of your prospects have ever lived the hype and in most cases ended up being busts. It is still too early to suggest Komisarek and Hainsey are busts but you do realize Hale and Martin are both one the devils roster. Hale playing with Rafalski, and Martin playing with Stevens. Hale, Martin were in the same draft as Hainsey and both were picked later. These two have to make the devils roster also. Hainsey and Komisarek have to pick up their pace and become stars if Montreal wants to win the cup.

I think we agree with Perez and Higgs. Hainsey, I honestly don't like that much unlike many here. He might very well be a bad pick.

Comparing the Devils situation to Montreal is completely different. Apples and Orangers. Spots became open in NJ did they not. Different situation as in guys were not under contract so spots opened (guys like Albelin (sp?), Tverdovsky, an other guy, a veteran who retired I think, can't remember name). Montreal currently has too much money invested in Brisebois, Rivet, and Quintal. Also, the unexpected emergence and health of Souray has altered Hainsey's work load and managements plan about him.

The only think about Komisarek I am worried about is the potential lockout. He needs to be in the NHL now, and I can't see him being able to be stuck in the minors for two more years.

Count of DannyKristo 11-11-2003 12:13 PM

JasonMacIsaac,
The Devils have the benefit of throwing a kid with an experienced guy like Stevens and teaching him a lot. Much like Jackman with Pronger last year. We, on the other hand, have not had that type of success bringing along prospects. Look at Colorado, they'd just bring up a Hejduk, a Tanguay or a Drury and throw them in with Forsberg or Sakic. We don't have that luxury and it makes it that much more difficult.

That being said, I agree that Komisarek needs to get his time with the big club to gain experience. Hainsey needs it too, especially over a guy like Boullion. As for Hossa, I'm not high on him at all.

Mike8 11-11-2003 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
Rivet is the heart and soul of this defense corps though so I would have a tough time sitting him. it all comes down to playing Komisarek over Brisebois/Souray.

Why do we even bother responding to this type of nonsense from a troll?

Watch a Hab game some time. Or just read the post game threads of the Hab games. Maybe you would then realize that Rivet's been abysmal all season long while Souray's been outstanding, and has even surpassed Markov on the depth chart. Oh, and maybe then you'd also realize that Hossa's been one of Montreal's strongest players consistently.

You think Hossa, Komisarek and Hainsey are flopping? Wonderful. You seem to have your opinions and don't have any interest in other people's, so move along.

Fish on The Sand 11-11-2003 02:19 PM

He has played well, and in fact his play thus far was my inspiration to start dressing him for my dynasty, and even there he has done a great job. One thing I noticed during the Sabres game is Begin is a lot faster than I would have thought. I know he is no Zednik or Bulis, but for a 4th line grinder he can move pretty well.

Mike8 11-11-2003 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
I'm a troll now am I, Rivet has been with the team since 94, he fought, stuck up for the stars, was basicly a leader for his whole stay in Montreal. He is good with the media also. He is physical, he puts a good amount of points up per season. The guy should be playing, he may be off to a bad start but so is Iginla, should Calgary sit him?

Rivet never fought for stars in Montreal. He fought for Koivu exclusively because they're buddies. He's rarely if ever stood up for anyone else. Rivet has not been a physical force in Montreal since he was beaten down by Ruutu two or three years ago. He hasn't ever been Montreal's top defenseman and has seen his stock drop dramatically over the last year to the extent that the coaching staff paired him up with Bouillon in the hopes of sparking some emotion in Rivet's play.

This is not a case of Rivet having a bad start; it's a case of a player being overrated around the league because--as you said--he's a likeable person and has a lot of friends in the media (most notably: Pierre McGuire).


Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
Grow a clue buddy and stop resorting to insults, it makes you look pathetic.

Strange, I thought you were resorting to insults? :p Just as you have on any thread where people disagree with you. That's what makes you a troll; the fact that you come to HFBoards to spread your opinion as though it's fact, without taking other people's (possibly more knowledgeable about a specific topic) opinions into account or even discussing a topic.

This thread is a perfect example. Virtually every statement you've made about Hab players has been way off the mark, yet you insist you're right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
Edit: Hossa has been consistant, HOMER, I already stated before that if you look at his stats and his play on the ice he is only consistantly playing poor. The guy isn't putting pucks in the net nor is he stopping them from going in. He uses he body well, so does Domi but that doesn't make him a good forward.

Traffic Patrolman, I am now moving along....

You can look at Hossa's stats all you want, but that's not indicative of his play. For you to call him 'poor' because you looked at the stats is ridiculous and certainly troll-fashion.

Hossa's play without the puck and dedication to the fundamentals of the game have improve dramatically. I daresay this is more important than his play with the puck, which is what most youngsters develop first. Hossa's been one of the few Habs that have been strong along the boards, creating room for Ribeiro and Zednik through pick plays and using his size in the offensive zone. He's started going to the net, and has been the defensive conscience of the line.

If you want to label me a homer (despite the fact that you're trying to convince me that Rivet's better than I think he is), that's fine. Read the post game threads, and see the praise that Hossa has received. It's been growing throughout the season for a reason.

KILLger 11-11-2003 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
I'm done here.

You'll be missed...

theo6060 11-13-2003 04:19 PM

Steve Begin this season
 
I have to say that I am impressed. Every time I've seen him out there he plays with hussle and grit. Sure, he'll never score 20 goals in the NHL, but I think he was a great pick up by Bob Gainey in the waiver draft.

didjuicythat 11-13-2003 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
Hossa played today, I seen the game and he was horrible. He didn't get the puck deep, he wasn't physical and he didn't get anything going offensivly.

Weren't you done here?
Yeah, that's what I thought.


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