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-   -   Trade Proposal: Phi/NYR (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=27739)

orangestreak 11-12-2003 06:59 PM

Trade Proposal: Phi/NYR
 
Carter and Blackburn for Gagne, Seidenberg and a 1st rounder.

Winston Wolf 11-12-2003 07:09 PM

Flyers and Rangers won't trade, so it doesn't really matter, but as a Flyers fan I wouldn't do it. I'm not sold on Blackburn and don't really like Carter. Besides, adding Carter would just screw up our lines and the lines are all clicking right now, so I see no reason to make any changes.

Hammerwise 11-13-2003 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangestreak
Carter and Blackburn for Gagne, Seidenberg and a 1st rounder.


Even if Philly and Rangers pull trade, Blackburn isn't worth Seidenberg and a 1st, and Gagne, (because of his potential), is probably slightly greater than Carter, who hasn't been the same since getting some 1st line icetime with EDM.

I like all players involved but Blackburn may be permanently screwed by the rush and stress the Rangers put him under.
He goes from 18 yrs old to the NHL and at one point had to start like a dozen in a row. He then gets demoted because his defense sucks so bad to backup, now hes in the minors. Tell me that wouldn't drive you crazy as an employee.

John Flyers Fan 11-13-2003 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangestreak
Carter and Blackburn for Gagne, Seidenberg and a 1st rounder.


Yikes, and your a Flyers fan ??? :(

I wouldn't trade Gagne for Carter & Blackburn, let alone adding Seidenberg & a 1st.

MisterUnspoken 11-13-2003 05:04 AM

Seidenberg, what has he proven? nothing. He is an offensive minded defenseman if I'm not mistaken, which the Rangers don't need. We've already got big bad Tom Poti & Leetch & Bouchard for that. Blackburn on the other hand will be a franchise goalie, he has already proven he can steal games and play in the NHL, a far more valuable commodity than DS. How can he be ruined by getting playing time in the AHL? After his pinched nerve or whatever heals he will start playing and be fine. The Rangers have quietly built a group of players up who can step in during the next hockey season, whenever that is.

Gagne, well I'd rather have Carter he fits into the Rangers plans a bit better at the moment and we can expect a full season out of him (more or less) unlike Gagne.

The deal isn't terrible don't get me wrong, and I think Gagne is a good player but I wouldn't move Blackburn especially when we don't have anyone else to really step in, we don't know how our good ole SEL goaltender can be quite yet.... :)

John Flyers Fan 11-13-2003 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterUnspoken
Seidenberg, what has he proven? nothing. He is an offensive minded defenseman if I'm not mistaken, which the Rangers don't need. We've already got big bad Tom Poti & Leetch & Bouchard for that. Blackburn on the other hand will be a franchise goalie, he has already proven he can steal games and play in the NHL, a far more valuable commodity than DS. How can he be ruined by getting playing time in the AHL? After his pinched nerve or whatever heals he will start playing and be fine. The Rangers have quietly built a group of players up who can step in during the next hockey season, whenever that is.

Gagne, well I'd rather have Carter he fits into the Rangers plans a bit better at the moment and we can expect a full season out of him (more or less) unlike Gagne.

The deal isn't terrible don't get me wrong, and I think Gagne is a good player but I wouldn't move Blackburn especially when we don't have anyone else to really step in, we don't know how our good ole SEL goaltender can be quite yet.... :)

Seidenberg is as proven if not more than Blackburn currently is.

Blackburn is far from a guaruntee to be a franchise goalie. He's back in the AHL, and currently not playing due to injury and expected to be out for another few months.

Frenzy1 11-13-2003 05:31 AM

Blackburn, even if healthy would be in the AHL. It has to do w/ getting him playing time. I would imagine that playing full time in the AHL is more worthwhile to a YOUNG goalie then playing as a backup in the NHL where you may see 15-20 games at most.

John Flyers Fan 11-13-2003 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frenzy1
Blackburn, even if healthy would be in the AHL. It has to do w/ getting him playing time. I would imagine that playing full time in the AHL is more worthwhile to a YOUNG goalie then playing as a backup in the NHL where you may see 15-20 games at most.


Agreed it's where he should be, but he has been handled poorly so far by the Rangers, and is far from a lock to eventually be a great goalie, he's not even a lock to be a future #1 goalie at this point.

E-Train 11-13-2003 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Agreed it's where he should be, but he has been handled poorly so far by the Rangers, and is far from a lock to eventually be a great goalie, he's not even a lock to be a future #1 goalie at this point.


And Seidenberg is a lock as a NHL defenseman? I agree that this deal is bad for the Flyers but because Gagne >>>> Carter. Blackburn will be fine, remember he is 20 years old. Plenty of time for him to develop properly.

I'm getting sick of hearing that all the Ranger prospects are overrated and most other team's prospects are great

John Flyers Fan 11-13-2003 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E-Train
And Seidenberg is a lock as a NHL defenseman? I agree that this deal is bad for the Flyers but because Gagne >>>> Carter. Blackburn will be fine, remember he is 20 years old. Plenty of time for him to develop properly.

I'm getting sick of hearing that all the Ranger prospects are overrated and most other team's prospects are great


I enever said that Seidenberg was going to be a great defenseman, but certainly at worst a #5 defenseman.

The trade breaks down like this

Flyers 1st = Blackburn

Gagne & Seidenberg >>> Carter

E-Train 11-13-2003 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I enever said that Seidenberg was going to be a great defenseman, but certainly at worst a #5 defenseman.

The trade breaks down like this

Flyers 1st = Blackburn

Gagne & Seidenberg >>> Carter

I know you didn't say great but don't underrate Blackburn,

What will the Flyers 1st be this year? #27, #28? Blackburn was picked 10th in a pretty solid draft and is still a potential #1 goalie.

Gagne & Seidenberg >>>>> Carter

Blackburn >>>>> Flyers '04 1st round pick

It's still not a good deal for the Flyers. The Rags would take Gagne in a heartbeat

John Flyers Fan 11-13-2003 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E-Train
I know you didn't say great but don't underrate Blackburn,

What will the Flyers 1st be this year? #27, #28? Blackburn was picked 10th in a pretty solid draft and is still a potential #1 goalie.

Blackburn >>>>> Flyers '04 1st round pick

It's still not a good deal for the Flyers. The Rags would take Gagne in a heartbeat


IMO Blackburn's value has wither stayed the same or dropped slightly since he was drafted. Trade values for goalies are currently at an all-time low.

Flyers have had a very good draft record of late picking guys late in the first round.

We got Mike Richards with that pick last year, and I wouldn't trade him for Blackburn

E-Train 11-13-2003 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
IMO Blackburn's value has wither stayed the same or dropped slightly since he was drafted. Trade values for goalies are currently at an all-time low.

Flyers have had a very good draft record of late picking guys late in the first round.

We got Mike Richards with that pick last year, and I wouldn't trade him for Blackburn

I'm happy with Blackburn, I don't think his value has dropped at all. The disgraceful management that the Rangers have should not devalue their prospects. I would take Blackburn over the 28th pick in this year's draft.

From what I have seen on these boards everyone thinks their prospects are better than the Rangers, I have to disagree

JR#9* 11-13-2003 07:45 AM

2 things John---This is not Gagne of 2-3 yrs ago.This is a shell of that player who is battling major confidence problems, is made out of glass and is soft, especially for the Atlantic div.


The other thing is that being that the Flyers will likely have a pick somewhere aroung 26-30 if you think that this pick is of equal value to Blackburn then I think your severely underating his value.

The kid is 20 yrs old, has had a nice # of NHL games under his belt and he has played well and more importantly he has shown a mental toughness that will prove to be one of the biggest factors of why he becomes a very good #1 NHL goalie.

The kid at 18 would give up a bad goal or two to start a game but he'd never lose his composure and often he'd be a rock for the rest of the game.Let this kid go to Hartford for a year and within 3 yrs he'll be the NYR's #1 at 23-24 yrs old.

John Flyers Fan 11-13-2003 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR#9
2 things John---This is not Gagne of 2-3 yrs ago.This is a shell of that player who is battling major confidence problems, is made out of glass and is soft, especially for the Atlantic div.

The other thing is that being that the Flyers will likely have a pick somewhere aroung 26-30 if you think that this pick is of equal value to Blackburn then I think your severely underating his value.

The kid is 20 yrs old, has had a nice # of NHL games under his belt and he has played well and more importantly he has shown a mental toughness that will prove to be one of the biggest factors of why he becomes a very good #1 NHL goalie.

The kid at 18 would give up a bad goal or two to start a game but he'd never lose his composure and often he'd be a rock for the rest of the game.Let this kid go to Hartford for a year and within 3 yrs he'll be the NYR's #1 at 23-24 yrs old.


A few things.

Is Gagne worth as much as he would have gotten in a trade a year ago ? No his value has dropped some due to injury concerns, not disputing that.

Blackburn's value is down for a few reasons:

#1. Injury is going to force him to miss 70% of his season this year.
#2. Improper handling by the Rangers, he should have been playing 50+ games a year the last two, instead of sitting for long stretches.

#3. The biggest reason is something that he can't control, he's a goalie, and ALL goalie values have dropped in the last 3 years. There is a glut of goaltenders on the market right now, and the only ones that garner any serious trade value are the super studs (Brodeur, Luongo etc.) and then super studs to be (Fleury, Lehtonen (sp?)).



Another thing not mentioned is that most of you guys on the Rangers board would drive Carter to his next destination if you could get any kind of decent return for him.

#37-#93-#27* 11-13-2003 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Yikes, and your a Flyers fan ??? :(

I wouldn't trade Gagne for Carter & Blackburn, let alone adding Seidenberg & a 1st.

Gagne can't handle the east, no way is he worth Carter and a pick (ok that's a stretch) but Carter and a top goaltending prospect, no chance.

John Flyers Fan 11-13-2003 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27
Gagne can't handle the east, no way is he worth Carter and a pick (ok that's a stretch) but Carter and a top goaltending prospect, no chance.


Obviously the hole in his abdominal muscle he had last year, was a result of him playing in the Eastern Conference. :shakehead

MojoJojo 11-13-2003 10:15 AM

Blackburn is a decent goaltending prospect, but please, dont kid yourself that he is even that far above average. He got a lot of time as an 18 year old last season because, and only because, your #1 got hurt and you didn't have anyone else (Lundquist? Labarbera?). On most teams in the NHL, he would not have even been a back up, which really says something about your organization's depth.

Certainly, on the Flyers he would be competing for a back up position on the Phantoms, since he is not nearly as good as either of our regular goaltenders, and is probably not as good as Niitymaki or Roman Malek.

Frankly if you believe he is as good as all that you should keep him. Your organization desperately needs the young players, and its not like you are going to win the Cup any time soon.

rangers 11-13-2003 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MojoJojo
On most teams in the NHL, he would not have even been a back up, which really says something about your organization's depth.

Certainly, on the Flyers he would be competing for a back up position on the Phantoms, since he is not nearly as good as either of our regular goaltenders, and is probably not as good as Niitymaki or Roman Malek.

Good God....

MojoJojo 11-13-2003 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rangers
Good God....

So make the case that he is better than Esche or Hackett. Maybe in the future, but that is notoriously difficult to predict. His 31 game 3.28 Goals against was so stellar last year, your team was forced to go out and trade for Dunham.

Bacchus 11-13-2003 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MojoJojo
So make the case that he is better than Esche or Hackett. Maybe in the future, but that is notoriously difficult to predict. His 31 game 3.28 Goals against was so stellar last year, your team was forced to go out and trade for Dunham.

Take a look at our defence and you know why.

rangers 11-13-2003 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MojoJojo
So make the case that he is better than Esche or Hackett. Maybe in the future, but that is notoriously difficult to predict. His 31 game 3.28 Goals against was so stellar last year, your team was forced to go out and trade for Dunham.

You are aware of the fact that while Philadelphia got one of the best D`s in the league, NYR got one of the, if not the, worst? Why did we trade for Dunham? Because Richter went down early in November and Blackburn a 19 year old was our only real option in goal. He played something like 16 straight games and bailed us out many times. However he got fatigued and we had to get another goalie to help him carry the load. Just look at Hackett`s improvement after coming over from Boston. His GAA average is down from 3.20 to 2.08. His SV% is also much better this year than last...

SingnBluesOnBroadway 11-13-2003 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MojoJojo
Blackburn is a decent goaltending prospect, but please, dont kid yourself that he is even that far above average. He got a lot of time as an 18 year old last season because, and only because, your #1 got hurt and you didn't have anyone else (Lundquist? Labarbera?). On most teams in the NHL, he would not have even been a back up, which really says something about your organization's depth.

Certainly, on the Flyers he would be competing for a back up position on the Phantoms, since he is not nearly as good as either of our regular goaltenders, and is probably not as good as Niitymaki or Roman Malek.

Frankly if you believe he is as good as all that you should keep him. Your organization desperately needs the young players, and its not like you are going to win the Cup any time soon.


Holy homerism Batman!

Bure9* 11-13-2003 11:39 AM

Does anybody else think that Carter will not be traded, ever? The Rangers seem to be pushing Carter as the new poster boy even though most will agree he is average. Oilers fans would definitely agree.

SingnBluesOnBroadway 11-13-2003 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MojoJojo
So make the case that he is better than Esche or Hackett. Maybe in the future, but that is notoriously difficult to predict. His 31 game 3.28 Goals against was so stellar last year, your team was forced to go out and trade for Dunham.

As supposed to the great Jeff Hackett who, in his first 43 games put up a brilliant 3.58 goals against average with a saver percentage of .879.


And please, Blackburns GAA last season was 3.17.

And 63 games into his career, he has a GAA of 3.23 and a save % of .894.


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