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-   -   #1 in 2004 - Ovechkin or Crosby?? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=27767)

HabLover 11-12-2003 10:31 PM

#1 in 2004 - Ovechkin or Crosby??
 
The two most hyped prospects right now on the planet! If they were both available next spring in 2004....who would you select??

Ovechkin is projected to be a better overall package than Kovalchuk, while Crosby is on pace to smash 16 yr old numbers put up by the likes of Lemieux, Bossy, Lecavalier, Bouchard and yes, Daigle!

Tough decision......I'm still thinking about who I'd take............

cagney 11-12-2003 10:38 PM

Does this topic really need to be discussed yet again? It's been debated ad nauseum for over a year now on these boards and it's still as stupid and pointless as ever. NEXT TOPIC PLEASE!

Boondock Saint 11-12-2003 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cagney
Does this topic really need to be discussed yet again? It's been debated ad nauseum for over a year now on these boards and it's still as stupid and pointless as ever. NEXT TOPIC PLEASE!

If you don't like it, don't read it. It's not like you're a paying customer here, dumbass.

vipergtsr404 11-13-2003 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HabLover
The two most hyped prospects right now on the planet! If they were both available next spring in 2004....who would you select??

Ovechkin is projected to be a better overall package than Kovalchuk, while Crosby is on pace to smash 16 yr old numbers put up by the likes of Lemieux, Bossy, Lecavalier, Bouchard and yes, Daigle!

Tough decision......I'm still thinking about who I'd take............

crosby is inelligable in 2004 as a 16 year old his draft year is 2005 so the answer is clear unless for some reason i'm mistaken about crosby's age.

Alliance 11-13-2003 01:46 AM

Ovechkin is playing in an elite men's league and is doing quite well. Crosby is doing very well in a the Q but the Q is still a junior league. Right now the edge has to go to Ovechkin.

Whinks 11-13-2003 01:51 AM

I'd take Ovechkin

NYR469 11-13-2003 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vipergtsr404
crosby is inelligable in 2004 as a 16 year old his draft year is 2005 so the answer is clear unless for some reason i'm mistaken about crosby's age.

that is true but the original post said "If they were both available next spring in 2004....who would you select??"

obviously ovechkin is #1 in 2004 and crosby is #1 in 2005, but IF, as part of a hypothetical question, they were available the same year and you had to choose between the 2 which would you take

zetterberg40 11-13-2003 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HabLover
The two most hyped prospects right now on the planet! If they were both available next spring in 2004....who would you select??

Ovechkin is projected to be a better overall package than Kovalchuk, while Crosby is on pace to smash 16 yr old numbers put up by the likes of Lemieux, Bossy, Lecavalier, Bouchard and yes, Daigle!

Tough decision......I'm still thinking about who I'd take............

It all depends on what a team needs. If they need someone physical who can do it all and score then i would say go with Ovechkin, if you need someone creative and could be the best/one of the best scorers in the next 20 years, then go with Crosby. In my opinion i say go with a team need only because both players are gonna be completely amazing

#37-#93-#27* 11-13-2003 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alliance
Ovechkin is playing in an elite men's league and is doing quite well. Crosby is doing very well in a the Q but the Q is still a junior league. Right now the edge has to go to Ovechkin.

That argument would be valid if Ovechkin were dominating in Russia but he's not so it's pointless.

Very few players have dominated the Q as a 16 year old much like Crosby is doing now. Most if not all have gone on to have great NHL careers. Many players don't even get to play in their super league yet still have great careers, ie: Ilya Kovalchuk.

Crosby is not elligable for the 2004 draft so it's pointless to answer this anyway.

Jeffrey 11-13-2003 06:33 AM

I'll go with Ovechkin ....
why?
Bigger and Stronger :( !!
the rest are all similar ...
incredbile speed and acceleration!
amazing hockey senses!
good shot!
good maturity!
good work ethic!
and a lots of determination both sides...

cagney 11-13-2003 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boondock Saint
If you don't like it, don't read it. It's not like you're a paying customer here, dumbass.

So just because I'm not paying means I can't be concerned with the quality of the board? There's a reason the moderators created the thread that's stickied at the top of the forum this very minute.

The_Wiz 11-13-2003 07:02 AM

Crosby by a country mile ! In my drafts POINTS are the only thing that count, NOT size, strength, or toughness.

Crosby will get way more points than Ovechkin in the NHL ! :)

Dr_Chimera* 11-13-2003 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27
That argument would be valid if Ovechkin were dominating in Russia but he's not so it's pointless.

Very few players have dominated the Q as a 16 year old much like Crosby is doing now. Most if not all have gone on to have great NHL careers. Many players don't even get to play in their super league yet still have great careers, ie: Ilya Kovalchuk.

Crosby is not elligable for the 2004 draft so it's pointless to answer this anyway.

Well, if by dominating you mean being the top scorer in the best league in Europe, then no he is not dominating.

Then again, he's still one of the best scorers in the league, and thus already a star among men.

So I think his arguments actually flies...

However, in Crosby's case, there are a lot of things to figure in. First of all, it is not unusual even for 16-year olds to put up great offensive numbers in the league and, second of all, the QMJHL is virtually devoid of defense.

It goes without saying that Crosby's numbers are impressive and the greatest for a player of his age for many years, but this is just the beginning for him and there are ways to go to establish something called "consistency". Whether or not he can maintain this consistency will be determined.

Slats432 11-13-2003 08:32 AM

So very tough a call. If I was going to select one at this second it would have to be Ovechkin.

1. Because of the year of development, he is more refined, and in his 3rd season playing against men is putting up impressive numbers. If Ovechkin played in the Q as a 16 year old, I would expect that his numbers would be similar.

2. Unless Crosby grows more, he is 5'10 and 180 or something like that. A little more size doesn't hurt.

3. Experience playing with men. Can't be understated. 3 years versus the top players in the top league in Europe.

Although, I like Crosby too. Not saying Ovechkin is going to be better or anything, but right now, I draft him.

LaLaLaprise 11-13-2003 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Wiz
Crosby by a country mile ! In my drafts POINTS are the only thing that count, NOT size, strength, or toughness.

Crosby will get way more points than Ovechkin in the NHL ! :)

So you base everything on points?? Oh yeah, like stats really tell the whole story.

#37-#93-#27* 11-13-2003 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr_Chimera
Well, if by dominating you mean being the top scorer in the best league in Europe, then no he is not dominating.

Then again, he's still one of the best scorers in the league, and thus already a star among men.

So I think his arguments actually flies...

However, in Crosby's case, there are a lot of things to figure in. First of all, it is not unusual even for 16-year olds to put up great offensive numbers in the league and, second of all, the QMJHL is virtually devoid of defense.

It goes without saying that Crosby's numbers are impressive and the greatest for a player of his age for many years, but this is just the beginning for him and there are ways to go to establish something called "consistency". Whether or not he can maintain this consistency will be determined.

Someone posted a stat here showing the reputation it has about being all offense and no defense is false. I forgot what the numbers were but it ranked third among the canadian junior leagues in scoring and such.

Also at 16, he is not just putting up great offensive numbers, he's putting up offensive numbers comperable to Bossy, Lemieux, etc players like that.

LaLaLaprise 11-13-2003 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27
Someone posted a stat here showing the reputation it has about being all offense and no defense is false. I forgot what the numbers were but it ranked third among the canadian junior leagues in scoring and such.

Also at 16, he is not just putting up great offensive numbers, he's putting up offensive numbers comperable to Bossy, Lemieux, etc players like that.

Hes 48 pts away from Mario. Mario played 60 games and 98 pts as a 16 year old.

Sid has 24 games 50 points. if he plays all 70 games (he will probably miss 6 for WJ) so lets say 64 games.

At the current pace of 2.08ppg he would get 133 pts.

Jeffrey 11-13-2003 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by La-La-Laprise
Hes 48 pts away from Mario. Mario played 60 games and 98 pts as a 16 year old.

Sid has 24 games 50 points. if he plays all 70 games (he will probably miss 6 for WJ) so lets say 64 games.

At the current pace of 2.08ppg he would get 133 pts.

but still ... lots of Q players put up good # .. and didn't even made the NHL..

Devo-2 11-13-2003 10:00 AM

If this were really a decision to be made, I wonder how much if any consideration would be given to the effort and cost it would take to get Ovechkin out of Russian and into the NHL. I know the Sabres couldn't do it with Kriukov this year. If you had someone with similar talent in Crosby, why go through the hassle.

Dr_Chimera* 11-13-2003 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27
Someone posted a stat here showing the reputation it has about being all offense and no defense is false. I forgot what the numbers were but it ranked third among the canadian junior leagues in scoring and such.

Also at 16, he is not just putting up great offensive numbers, he's putting up offensive numbers comperable to Bossy, Lemieux, etc players like that.

Well, it is common knowledge that the QMJHL is much less defense-oriented than the other leagues. If those stats are just based on this season, then it is young. Q is also a league with players of lesser talent (aside from the goalies), so I doubt he'd keep up this pace in the O or the W.
Ragardless, my point was regarding consistency which has yet to be determined.
And if you look back at the history of the QMJHL and some of the 16, 17-year old phenoms who put up awesome early numbers, you don't only come up with a name like Lemieux, but you'll come up with a name like Alexandre Daigle.

Now, I don't think Crosby is anything like Daigle, but if you go solely on stats, you'll find yourself knee-deep in a badly formulated argument.

And, as for his 2 ppg average, if he keeps it up throughout the whole year, then you can start with the Lemieux comparisoons, but it's a long year and his endurance will be tested.

LaLaLaprise 11-13-2003 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kryoptix
but still ... lots of Q players put up good # .. and didn't even made the NHL..

I agree 100%, but how many are 16??

LaLaLaprise 11-13-2003 10:08 AM

DR_Chimera -- Get your facts straight, the Q isnt anymore high scoring than the OHL.

If you want proof just look at last years and this years goals per game.

#37-#93-#27* 11-13-2003 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr_Chimera
Well, it is common knowledge that the QMJHL is much less defense-oriented than the other leagues. If those stats are just based on this season, then it is young. Q is also a league with players of lesser talent (aside from the goalies), so I doubt he'd keep up this pace in the O or the W.
Ragardless, my point was regarding consistency which has yet to be determined.
And if you look back at the history of the QMJHL and some of the 16, 17-year old phenoms who put up awesome early numbers, you don't only come up with a name like Lemieux, but you'll come up with a name like Alexandre Daigle.

Now, I don't think Crosby is anything like Daigle, but if you go solely on stats, you'll find yourself knee-deep in a badly formulated argument.

And, as for his 2 ppg average, if he keeps it up throughout the whole year, then you can start with the Lemieux comparisoons, but it's a long year and his endurance will be tested.

I think the numbers were based on recent years and where posted early into the season. I'll try to find it after I post this.

My argument about Daigle is the guy is actually a great talent. He's one of the most talented players in the NHL but he doesn't have the other things you need to succeed. From all accounts Sidney does. We'll just have to wait and see.

TelperiŽn 11-13-2003 10:19 AM

I'll take Alexander Ovechkin.

But Ovechkin is not going to become the next Kovalchuk, Gretzky... etc. He's going to be the next Ovechkin. He's himself.

I don't know if he's going to become better than Ilya, Mario or Gretz - but right now, all that matters is that he impresses the NHL, gets drafted, and earns a permanent spot with a team. He can worry about rising to stardom later.

Juan 11-13-2003 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by La-La-Laprise
DR_Chimera -- Get your facts straight, the Q isnt anymore high scoring than the OHL.

If you want proof just look at last years and this years goals per game.

It is a logical fallacy to compare the three leagues by goals per game.

Theoretically, the Q could be much more offensive in style, but that might not be reflected in goals per game because the forwards are not as skilled as in the other 2 leagues, or because the goalies are better.

If you use virtually any other comparable, for example the number of players drafted into the NHL or the number of Memorial Cups won, those statistics clearly show that the Q lags behind the other 2 leagues in "quality" (however you want to define that word). Referring back to the draft for a moment, I find it amazing that the Q has NEVER been better than third place (vs. the O and Dub) for the number of players drafted in the 30+ years that the NHL draft has been held.

The point is that a special player like Crosby would be amazing in all three leagues, but I suspect he wouldn't be getting 2+ points per game in the other 2 leagues, simply because the players he is competing against would be better on average.


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