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-   -   The Souray Dilemma (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=297913)

Mike8 10-07-2006 08:35 AM

The Souray Dilemma
 
I don't want to judge Souray harshly based on last night's game. This thread isn't intended for that. But there is a dilemma right now with regards to Souray:

On the one hand, Souray's a big, mean body who has a terrific shot and adds a dimension to the powerplay. In my view, Souray's sheriff-mentality; how he protects his teammates, plays a mean and vengeful game is important towards team building and unity. He also polices the game a little from Montreal's standpoint. Without him, the team loses a lot in the toughness arena.

When Peters ran over Begin, and subsequently Montreal scored on the powerplay, Souray went right after Peters.

Souray's a borderline heavyweight, but his importance is more in the policing and intimidation department than it is actually fighting. He's a real pain to play against; Souray gets away with a lot of slashing and cross-checking, even in the new NHL. And his slashes are brutal.

Remove him from the team and there's not one player that adds this dimension. The team also loses a dimension on the powerplay.


On the other hand, Souray really does get exposed by quick, shifty players. The Sabres keyed in on Souray every time they were on the ice. They always put the puck in his corner on the ice, and they always got the shiftiest of players out there against Souray.


So here's the dilemma: keeping Souray in this new NHL means that he'll be exposed. On the other hand, not keeping Souray will expose Montreal and lose a real good asset.


I think the solution to this dilemma is relatively simple: play Souray less, and play him with a better puck-moving defenseman, who can at times overcommit to Souray's side in support, but has the skating ability to get back into position fast. Dandenault, perhaps.

My concern mainly lies in the fact that Montreal's coaching staff didn't even try to keep Souray away from Afinogenov...

The n00b King ©* 10-07-2006 08:38 AM

i hate that afinogenov guy. i wish souray or komi got one chance to REALLY smother him against the boards. esti que jaimerais qui se fasse etamper ben comme faut cte ti crisse la...

KaptainKourage* 10-07-2006 08:39 AM

Souray got a bad game. Yep. But it's only ONE game. He can be good in new rules, we saw that last year when he got a good season overall.

We need him. Maybe he's not a top 4 dman against speedy team like Buffalo but we will need him for sure against Boston, Philly or Toronto.

I love Sheldon. Screw is wife.

NewHabsEra* 10-07-2006 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike8 (Post 6688146)
On the other hand, Souray really does get exposed by quick, shifty players. The Sabres keyed in on Souray every time they were on the ice. They always put the puck in his corner on the ice, and they always got the shiftiest of players out there against Souray.


So here's the dilemma: keeping Souray in this new NHL means that he'll be exposed. On the other hand, not keeping Souray will expose Montreal and lose a real good asset.


I think the solution to this dilemma is relatively simple: play Souray less, and play him with a better puck-moving defenseman, who can at times overcommit to Souray's side in support, but has the skating ability to get back into position fast. Dandenault, perhaps.

My concern mainly lies in the fact that Montreal's coaching staff didn't even try to keep Souray away from Afinogenov...

I cant agree more.. Play Souray with a puckmover!!! Not freaking Rivet!!! I like the idea of Dandenault pretty much...

Personally, Ive never been a fan of Rivet and Im certainly effraid to see him having another poor season... I think Rivet is more of a prob than Souray is at the moment.. Both have alot of work to do from what I saw last night... I would have no prob to live with Coté instead of Rivet next season...

My pairings:

Markov Komisarek

Souray Dandeneault

Niinima/Streit Rivet

NewHabsEra* 10-07-2006 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaptainKourage (Post 6688160)
Souray got a bad game. Yep. But it's only ONE game. He can be good in new rules, we saw that last year when he got a good season overall.

We need him. Maybe he's not a top 4 dman against speedy team like Buffalo but we will need him for sure against Boston, Philly or Toronto.

I love Sheldon. Screw is wife.

He has a big problem regarding mobility...

Beauchemin....:cry:

Frankc 10-07-2006 08:52 AM

To be honest, I wish Souray will be trade. True the guy is a real warrior for the team, but damn he cost us to many goals! The more it goes, the slower he got, since Spezza owned him, every speedy players knows that they just have to go on Souray side..

And as for the fact that we don't have another Souray (for the sherif job), I think Komi would do it if not vets stand up. He already told that we want to be a impact player this year and not a youngster anymore.

KaptainKourage* 10-07-2006 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewHabsArea (Post 6688200)
He has a big problem regarding mobility...

Beauchemin....:cry:

He do ... but he also do have everything else : Leadership, thoughness, booming shot, experience...

mcphee 10-07-2006 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewHabsArea (Post 6688195)
I cant agree more.. Play Souray with a puckmover!!! Not freaking Rivet!!! I like the idea of Dandenault pretty much...

Personally, Ive never been a fan of Rivet and Im certainly effraid to see him having another poor season... I think Rivet is more of a prob than Souray is at the moment.. Both have alot of work to do from what I saw last night...

My pairings:

Markov Komisarek

Souray Dandeneault

Niinima/Streit Rivet

I agree with your pairings though not with your reasoning on this one. I don't say this because #44 was abysmal last night, but historically, he's a tough D to fit onto a pairing. Rivet and Souray both play their best when with someone a little quicker than they are.

Souray was targeted last night. I believe whenever possible Buffalo wanted to throw up a challenge on the outside.

I'm not worried about Rivet, he'll do his job. He'll have bad games but he always ends up doing his job. Souray's more of an issue, he has qualities, like those Mike mentionned, but to make use of them, you have to find a way to not get him exposed to speed. if guys like Gaustad are going to go outside, people are talking.

Bunka Gurndeep 10-07-2006 09:23 AM

Souray will be traded...
 
If he does not score at least 15 goals this year. At this time his liability will outweigh his offensive upside.

A simple cure for this whole situation would be to pair him with a speedy dman, not another slow one like Rivet. Why does EVERY coach always pair them together and put them out in key situations? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Munchausen 10-07-2006 09:29 AM

I was thinking about this as well last night and I feel playing Souray less 5-on-5 while still giving him his regular ice time on the PP would be a good solution. Pair Niinimaa, a more mobile, steadier Dman, with Rivet. Souray with Dandenault. The problem is then, if not solved, minimized.

I don't think Carbo has the trigger as quick as that though. He'll probably give it 10-15 games before making this kind of adjustment (unless the team goes downhill fast). But I certainly don't want to lose Souray's toughness, this is still his most important attribute, especially within this team.

Blind Gardien 10-07-2006 09:30 AM

I think I'd at least try to abstain from using Souray as a top option on the PK. Well, it may be that we don't have much choice on the left side. But if it comes down to it, I'd rather overplay Markov in that role than Souray.

Anyway, I would generally agree that the pairings could be mixed up a little bit, but that's mostly just because I think the Markov-Rivet pairing was magical and it was dumb to mess with it to begin with. It helped make Rivet look like a really good top-3 defenseman. It helped make Markov look like a #1 defenseman. Only problem is, then you start believing Rivet is top-3 and you want to make some other pairing stronger by putting him there instead, and... whups.

Restoring the Markov-Rivet pairing wouldn't solve any dilemnas on the other pairings. You could still do a lot of arguing there, and there are certainly arguments to put forward against either Komisarek or Dandenault as partners for Souray. In fact, of the 3, Rivet might actually still be the best one to put with him. But I still just like Markov-Rivet enough that I'd be ready to roll those loaded dice on the other pairings. On the other hand, if Souray just started playing well himself maybe it wouldn't matter so much... :dunno:

pavlako11 10-07-2006 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcooke (Post 6688297)
If he does not score at least 15 goals this year. At this time his liability will outweigh his offensive upside.

A simple cure for this whole situation would be to pair him with a speedy dman, not another slow one like Rivet. Why does EVERY coach always pair them together and put them out in key situations? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I'd say because who else would you put out there?

Rivet/Souray are big, strong and full of experience. Ok they might be a bit slow but I'm sure 29 other teams would love to have either of them.

felixd 10-07-2006 09:34 AM

This team needs Souray. Sure he gets beat by quickness sometimes, but what he brings to the team far outweighs the negatives.

Mikhail Grabovsky* 10-07-2006 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcooke (Post 6688297)
If he does not score at least 15 goals this year. At this time his liability will outweigh his offensive upside.

A simple cure for this whole situation would be to pair him with a speedy dman, not another slow one like Rivet. Why does EVERY coach always pair them together and put them out in key situations? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Oh ya, we have played a total of ONE game and I knew we would have our first LETS TRADE So AND So BS !!!!! YOU guys are so immature..:shakehead

superstar436 10-07-2006 09:47 AM

I still can't believe it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
After getting eliminated by the Canes, we all said that the habs need

- A big 1 or 2 nd line cman
- A top pairing dman

The whole summer passed by and we are now speaking about having a weak defense, and spent the last weak talking about ribs and whether pleks is a good replacement.

WE had 2 issues and none get resolved yet. We are still in the same situation. In other words stagnating. So if u ask me if we will make the playoffs I say yes but 8th.

This was my opinion before yesterday's hame. Which I think is a very good game for us even though we lost in OT

Gwi 10-07-2006 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaptainKourage (Post 6688160)

Screw is wife.

Most people actually would...

Mike8 10-07-2006 10:04 AM

I quite like Souray on the PK.

His lack of mobility isn't an issue since there's no real transition defense. He's big, so he takes up a fair bit of ice with his reach. He's very strong on the puck and good in board battles down low. He's also intimidating and players rarely want to get too close to him because he doesn't hesitate to lay the lumber on them.

Sometimes he'll have issues in terms of reaction time, but by and large I think he's a good quality special teams player.

GoHabsGO252006 10-07-2006 10:12 AM

All of this leads to my conclusion of yesterday. Are D imo are now

1. Markov
2. Komisarek
3. Dandenault
4. Sourray
5. Rivet
6. Niinimaa (may move up if he can pull it together)

Ever since midway last year Dandenault has been great. Using his speed to pinch in and get back, never loses a race and I rarely see him make a stupid play and give the puck away (Rivet failed to clear the zone on what lead to 3 goals last night).

I'm liking the Dandenault pick up more and more, he has truly been a gem, contrary to inital opinions of him. Another good move by Gainey when we gave him time to adjust.

mabus 10-07-2006 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcooke (Post 6688297)
If he does not score at least 15 goals this year. At this time his liability will outweigh his offensive upside.

A simple cure for this whole situation would be to pair him with a speedy dman, not another slow one like Rivet. Why does EVERY coach always pair them together and put them out in key situations? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

You do realise Sourray is a defenseman right and a damned good one? Not a forward? :shakehead

oli500 10-07-2006 10:36 AM

I think people got to understand something. I wasent a big fan of souray game last night, but you got to understand that any souray type defencemen would look bad playing the sabres. There a fast group of players. Souray is more suited playing teams like the maple leafs,bruins,flyers. It was carbo first game so im not going to make a big deal out of it but souray played way to many minuts last night and hes just not suited to play that many minuts againts a team like the sabres. Give him power play minuts and hes going to give you something. Even markov in my opinion had a bad game and that kind of game fits his style so its understandable that souray would have problems. The sabres are one of the fastest teams in the nhl, in those kind of games you want to give lots of minuts to dandenault,markov,ninema because they can keep up with the cycle game.

Markimark 10-07-2006 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcooke (Post 6688297)
If he does not score at least 15 goals this year. At this time his liability will outweigh his offensive upside.

A simple cure for this whole situation would be to pair him with a speedy dman, not another slow one like Rivet. Why does EVERY coach always pair them together and put them out in key situations? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

First off, lets not push the panic button. Last year Rivet proved he could play in this new league.
I prefer him with Markov but the coaching staff had no choice but to split that pairing up half way through last year to help out Souray and Komi. Voila, Souray's play picked up as did Komi. Dandy has the speed but struggled defensively paired with Souray.
Bottom line, Rivet's good positional play and experience usually compensates for Souray's brain cramps and tunnel vision but no ones perfect.

Markimark 10-07-2006 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blind Gardien (Post 6688323)
I think I'd at least try to abstain from using Souray as a top option on the PK. Well, it may be that we don't have much choice on the left side. But if it comes down to it, I'd rather overplay Markov in that role than Souray.

Anyway, I would generally agree that the pairings could be mixed up a little bit, but that's mostly just because I think the Markov-Rivet pairing was magical and it was dumb to mess with it to begin with. It helped make Rivet look like a really good top-3 defenseman. It helped make Markov look like a #1 defenseman. Only problem is, then you start believing Rivet is top-3 and you want to make some other pairing stronger by putting him there instead, and... whups.

Restoring the Markov-Rivet pairing wouldn't solve any dilemnas on the other pairings. You could still do a lot of arguing there, and there are certainly arguments to put forward against either Komisarek or Dandenault as partners for Souray. In fact, of the 3, Rivet might actually still be the best one to put with him. But I still just like Markov-Rivet enough that I'd be ready to roll those loaded dice on the other pairings. On the other hand, if Souray just started playing well himself maybe it wouldn't matter so much... :dunno:

You're right, Markov and Rivet were great. Now both have been sacrificed to try and elevate the play of the weaker players.
Having said that, I still believe Rivet is the best for Souray. While Dandy has more speed his positional play isn't as good and for that reason wasn't a good fit when it was tried last season. Komi and Souray were down right scary together.
The coaching staff tried everything so as to not have to break up the Markov Rivet pairing and nothing worked.
Give it a chance.

flappuck 10-07-2006 11:10 AM

Rivet looked just as bad as Souray on the Brière goal yet everbody jumps on Souray.

The problem with this pairing is that both are slow...

Blind Gardien 10-07-2006 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markimark (Post 6688726)
You're right, Markov and Rivet were great. Now both have been sacrificed to try and elevate the play of the weaker players.
Having said that, I still believe Rivet is the best for Souray. While Dandy has more speed his positional play isn't as good and for that reason wasn't a good fit when it was tried last season. Komi and Souray were down right scary together.
The coaching staff tried everything so as to not have to break up the Markov Rivet pairing and nothing worked.
Give it a chance.

And that's probably exactly why we're seeing it. And really, as long as Souray can keep his head on his shoulders a little bit better, it will work out. Markov is helping Komisarek along nicely, and Komisarek helps makes up for Markov's softness. It isn't chemistry on the order of Markov-Rivet, but it still works well. Niinimaa and Dandenault are clearly the lesser options on this defense, and they aren't capable of playing 20 minutes a night, every night, so keeping them together also seems to work. They are complementary enough that they make a good enough bottom pairing. So if it then comes down to it, Souray-Rivet might be the best compromise... especially if they pick up their play relative to last night. And not every team they face is going to be the fast and tricky Sabres either.

All in all, it's a pretty solid defense group, though, so anything we choose to complain about, especially after 1 game, is just standard Habs fan nitpicking. There's no Dykhuis, no Traverse, not even a Streit in the group... what, really, is the problem, eh? :banana:

mcphee 10-07-2006 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tout ptit (Post 6688764)
Rivet looked just as bad as Souray on the Brière goal yet everbody jumps on Souray.

The problem with this pairing is that both are slow...

Rivet had to play wider than Souray, the lw'er was even with the play, so he read his side while Souray just took a alzy half turn.

AS much as we want to find fault on the last goal, give the Sabres credit. Whoever retrieved the puck at their blueline made a great turnaround pass. It caught the Mtl forwards flat footed before they could get in a good position in the neutral zone.


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