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-   -   Changes (3rd Pairing D/Useless Forwards/Backup Goaltender) (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=298829)

silver_made* 10-10-2006 12:17 AM

Changes (3rd Pairing D/Useless Forwards/Backup Goaltender)
 
Out: Montador, Mezei
In: Jackman, Kwiatkowski


Martin needs to stop jerking around the 3rd pairing. Confidence can't be built by any of these guys if they are being shuffled in and out of the lineup. Mezei is a big slug of a tree. Trade him, demote him, waive him. He's useless in the faster NHL. Montador is barely a #6, has zero offensive upside, and is sort of tough. Jackman and Kwiatkowski are not only no worse on D than Mezei and Montador, but bring alot more on offense. Both have the speed to stay with the play and can even be used from time to time on the PP.

Out: Gelinas, Roberts, Olesz, Campbell
In: ?


There will be no more laughing at the likes of Jason Allison and Bobby Ryan: Gary Roberts is the slowest player in the league today. He is 40 years old. Aside from being Nieuwendyk's security blanket, I can't believe this organization couldn't upgrade the spot he occupies. Martin Gelinas isn't too far off. He isn't as dreadfully slow, but he doesn't really do anything well either.

The fact that Olesz is a regular and Campbell is the first called up on most occasions speaks less to their abilities and more to how low-quality our organizational depth is at the minor league levels and collection of prospects. Olesz and Campbell wouldn't even be ppg players in the AHL, but the fact is there is nothing keeping them OFF the NHL squad. Looking at our affiliates in the AHL, ECHL, and everyone we have drafted makes a fan sad. Frolik and Stewart are still a ways away from being regular NHL contributors, and that says alot about them as Panther prospects.

Out: Belfour
In: Anderson


The way Auld played against Toronto, in response to Martin's refusal to play Belfour against his old club despite cries from the Eagle, has me worried: Alex played so well that Jacques may well run him into the ground knowing that a worn out Auld is more effective than Belfour in any condition. Almost all teams today have a 2nd goalie who takes around 25-30 games minimum. With the explosion of quality goatending running 3-4 players deep in most organizations, the days of the 70-75 starts goaltender are going by the wayside. Craig Anderson, former OHL goaltender of the year, actually put up half-way decent numbers on some of the most putrid Chicago teams the NHL has even seen. Florida needs a goalie in here who can be relied on to make 20+ quality starts to help Auld make it through the season (and HOPEFULLY the playoffs). Anderson at 25 years of age, same as Auld and 16 years Belfour's junior, should at least be given a shot. He can certainly do no worse in his debut than the Eagle.

On a side note, anyone else find jokinen's play underwhelming? It's almost like he has handed the team over to bertuzzi and is gladly riding shotgun. He is our longterm forward centerpiece and is not playing like it.

Panthers_Fan 10-10-2006 12:34 AM

Gelinas, Roberts, Olesz out? This better be a joke? Your trashing of Olesz in the post is really annoying me right now.:madfire: He was awesome last season and is only in his second year. Give the guy a break. He is a solid NHLer. I do agree with your defense, but I wanted that third pairing from the beginning of the season.

silver_made* 10-10-2006 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panthers_Fan (Post 6714378)
Gelinas, Roberts, Olesz out? This better be a joke? Your trashing of Olesz in the post is really annoying me right now.:madfire: He was awesome last season and is only in his second year. Give the guy a break. He is a solid NHLer. I do agree with your defense, but I wanted that third pairing from the beginning of the season.

Why the staunch defense of Olesz? Just about every prospect (Weiss, Bouwmeester, Van Ryn, Kolnik, Stewart, Horton, Krajicek) has had to prove themselves in the AHL before earning an NHL spot. Olesz is on the big team not because he deserves it, because he sure as hell could benefit from boosting his ego with greater offensive responsibility in the AHL, but because we have no other options (blame Keenan and Martin).

pantherpaws 10-10-2006 01:20 AM

Anderson has had plenty of opportunities to make it in the NHL. He was waived by three teams last season. He is a great AHL goalie, but not an NHL goalie.

Panthers_Fan 10-10-2006 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 925 (Post 6714435)
Why the staunch defense of Olesz? Just about every prospect (Weiss, Bouwmeester, Van Ryn, Kolnik, Stewart, Horton, Krajicek) has had to prove themselves in the AHL before earning an NHL spot. Olesz is on the big team not because he deserves it, because he sure as hell could benefit from boosting his ego with greater offensive responsibility in the AHL, but because we have no other options (blame Keenan and Martin).

And my point is he proved himself last year, not to mention THIS season he has 2 points in 3 games. Are you telling me players with 2 points in three games should be demoted?

silver_made* 10-10-2006 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panthers_Fan (Post 6714545)
And my point is he proved himself last year, not to mention THIS season he has 2 points in 3 games. Are you telling me players with 2 points in three games should be demoted?

who DIDN'T score in that Boston game?

Olesz is a 40-45 point 2rd line player at his peak. A poor man's Lehtinen. An asset? Absolutely. A cornerstone piece who needs to be tried, and tried, and re-tried on top lines? Absolutely not. If he goes down to Rochester a explodes, he deserves his NHL spot. Right now, though, I see no necessity in rushing him into big responsibilities at the NHL level. Will we make a deal for a more established NHLer so Olesz can hone his offensive game in the AHL like the Hudlers, Parises, and O'Sullivan's of the world have done in recent season's? Probably not, and it is unfortunate for his development. He will stay with Florida because the organization has no choice.

BTW, if 21 points in 59 games is "awesome," then what the hell did Ovechkin accomplish?

silver_made* 10-10-2006 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pantherpaws (Post 6714542)
Anderson has had plenty of opportunities to make it in the NHL. He was waived by three teams last season. He is a great AHL goalie, but not an NHL goalie.

worse than 4 goals on 9 shots? we signed the guy; why not use him? the guy had a shutout for chicago last saeason; pretty amazing feat if you think about it. he is still young and looking to deal picks/prospects/spare parts for a an upgrade at backup goalie is not really the greatest priority right now.

just call up anderson and give him a shot.

pantherpaws 10-10-2006 01:57 AM

Belfour will bounce back. Stop pressing the panic button.

PanthersRule96 10-10-2006 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 925 (Post 6714311)
Out: Montador, Mezei
In: Jackman, Kwiatkowski


Martin needs to stop jerking around the 3rd pairing. Confidence can't be built by any of these guys if they are being shuffled in and out of the lineup. Mezei is a big slug of a tree. Trade him, demote him, waive him. He's useless in the faster NHL. Montador is barely a #6, has zero offensive upside, and is sort of tough. Jackman and Kwiatkowski are not only no worse on D than Mezei and Montador, but bring alot more on offense. Both have the speed to stay with the play and can even be used from time to time on the PP.

Out: Gelinas, Roberts, Olesz, Campbell
In: ?


There will be no more laughing at the likes of Jason Allison and Bobby Ryan: Gary Roberts is the slowest player in the league today. He is 40 years old. Aside from being Nieuwendyk's security blanket, I can't believe this organization couldn't upgrade the spot he occupies. Martin Gelinas isn't too far off. He isn't as dreadfully slow, but he doesn't really do anything well either.

The fact that Olesz is a regular and Campbell is the first called up on most occasions speaks less to their abilities and more to how low-quality our organizational depth is at the minor league levels and collection of prospects. Olesz and Campbell wouldn't even be ppg players in the AHL, but the fact is there is nothing keeping them OFF the NHL squad. Looking at our affiliates in the AHL, ECHL, and everyone we have drafted makes a fan sad. Frolik and Stewart are still a ways away from being regular NHL contributors, and that says alot about them as Panther prospects.

Out: Belfour
In: Anderson


The way Auld played against Toronto, in response to Martin's refusal to play Belfour against his old club despite cries from the Eagle, has me worried: Alex played so well that Jacques may well run him into the ground knowing that a worn out Auld is more effective than Belfour in any condition. Almost all teams today have a 2nd goalie who takes around 25-30 games minimum. With the explosion of quality goatending running 3-4 players deep in most organizations, the days of the 70-75 starts goaltender are going by the wayside. Craig Anderson, former OHL goaltender of the year, actually put up half-way decent numbers on some of the most putrid Chicago teams the NHL has even seen. Florida needs a goalie in here who can be relied on to make 20+ quality starts to help Auld make it through the season (and HOPEFULLY the playoffs). Anderson at 25 years of age, same as Auld and 16 years Belfour's junior, should at least be given a shot. He can certainly do no worse in his debut than the Eagle.

On a side note, anyone else find jokinen's play underwhelming? It's almost like he has handed the team over to bertuzzi and is gladly riding shotgun. He is our longterm forward centerpiece and is not playing like it.


Am I the only one who thinks Roberts looks a lot faster and is flying out there on the ice? I've watched hockey for years upon years and played it for as long as that, but maybe I'm just enamoured by those NikeBauer Supreme One90 Skates he has on, I have the same ones, maybe I subliminally think that they make him faster and I don't realize it because I want those skates to make people faster since I have them, I dunno, whatever, but I really think Roberts has been fast in on the forecheck for us and looks quicker.

Jokinen will wake up, he started slowly last season, he usually doesn't start really exploding up front for a little while. If we get a few months in and he's not doing anything, then we'll see but for now, relax.

Acadmus 10-10-2006 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 925 (Post 6714311)
Out: Montador, Mezei
In: Jackman, Kwiatkowski


Martin needs to stop jerking around the 3rd pairing. Confidence can't be built by any of these guys if they are being shuffled in and out of the lineup. Mezei is a big slug of a tree. Trade him, demote him, waive him. He's useless in the faster NHL. Montador is barely a #6, has zero offensive upside, and is sort of tough. Jackman and Kwiatkowski are not only no worse on D than Mezei and Montador, but bring alot more on offense. Both have the speed to stay with the play and can even be used from time to time on the PP.

Out: Gelinas, Roberts, Olesz, Campbell
In: ?


There will be no more laughing at the likes of Jason Allison and Bobby Ryan: Gary Roberts is the slowest player in the league today. He is 40 years old. Aside from being Nieuwendyk's security blanket, I can't believe this organization couldn't upgrade the spot he occupies. Martin Gelinas isn't too far off. He isn't as dreadfully slow, but he doesn't really do anything well either.

The fact that Olesz is a regular and Campbell is the first called up on most occasions speaks less to their abilities and more to how low-quality our organizational depth is at the minor league levels and collection of prospects. Olesz and Campbell wouldn't even be ppg players in the AHL, but the fact is there is nothing keeping them OFF the NHL squad. Looking at our affiliates in the AHL, ECHL, and everyone we have drafted makes a fan sad. Frolik and Stewart are still a ways away from being regular NHL contributors, and that says alot about them as Panther prospects.

The only thing you're right about is Belfour out. Gelinas and Roberts have been very good on the ice this year - Roberts got a number of chances last night, so I don't know where you're getting the idea he's the slowest in the league. Olesz is a good young player who could be a great player when he reaches his prime, and Mezei's made a few mistakes, but that's to be expected when he hasn't played much the past few years, and overall he doesn't make too many and gives us another physical presence on the ice and also isn't as slow as you suggest. He's a very satisfactory #5 guy (though I wouldn't want him to see #2-3 minutes). Montador's a bit iffy, but Jackman was playing last night, and did well. But I wouldn't want Kiwi and Jackman paired together - both have a bit of an offensive mindset and could leave the defensive end abandoned on occasion.

I luckily missed the Atlanta game, but overall the performance opening night and last night weren't bad. If the team can keep it up, they'll end up ahead in the long run.

My only concern now is the fact Olesz might be out with another injury anyway, and Nieuwendyk too. Gives a couple rookies a shot (Booth and Stew?), but I'd prefer they get AHL minutes and Joe and Rostislav come back soon.

Panthers Rock 10-10-2006 07:48 AM

First off you named 4 forwards who have played great games (I'm discounting Atlanta game because EVERYONE was horrible in that). Gelinas and Roberts are older but certainly not done, Roberts did assist on that only goal last night and if you want to see slow, try Jason Allison. Roberts may not be very fast anymore, but he still brings the hurt to the other team, just standing in front of that net caused a goal on Friday by Van Ryn, and not many players are willing to take that punishment. Campbell and Olesz are young strong players, Campbell is only the team because Peltonen is injured anyway, he's actually a healthy scratch when everyone is healthy, but he's useful for the PK and 4th line minutes, cheap too. Olesz, c'mon if you can't see Olesz's talent, drive, determination, the guy tried to hit Chara, there is no doubt that the Olesz-Nieuwendyk-Bertuzzi line has been the best so far. The 3rd D pairing is frightfully up in the air. As for Belfour, I find it hard to believe Anderson would be any better, "maybe" Pelletier, but you've got a better chance of getting an on night from Belfour than wanting to see the Chicago influenced Anderson.

Happy Girl 10-10-2006 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 925 (Post 6714311)
Aside from being Nieuwendyk's security blanket, I can't believe this organization couldn't upgrade the spot he occupies.

How is he Joe's security blanket? Joe doesn't need a security blanket. He's won 2 Stanley Cups and a Conn Smythe trophy without Gary. Joe is an amazing player who is capable of defending himself. Also, the majority of his accomplishments have been done without Gary on his team. They rarely even play on the same line, usually only on the PP. Security blanket my arse.

FlaPanthers7 10-10-2006 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 925 (Post 6714565)
who DIDN'T score in that Boston game?

It's pretty pointless to make that argument. The 2nd line was the best and most dominant line in that game. Olesz-Niewy-Bert had a collective 3 goals and 6 assists, no other line came close to that. The kid can handle his own and did so last year. He proved he belonged from the beginning of camp.

Keenan isn't a fan of rookies either, but when Keenan signed Olesz he did so with the intention of playing him right away based on his talent and experience playing against other pros in the Czech league. Olesz has done nothing to warrant being sent down. He's already developed his game against the big boyz so he should continue to develop at the NHL level.

pelts35.com 10-10-2006 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pantherpaws (Post 6714542)
Anderson has had plenty of opportunities to make it in the NHL. He was waived by three teams last season. He is a great AHL goalie, but not an NHL goalie.

He also cleared waivers again this season.

The Panthers better hope that they don't have to rely on Anderson to backup Auld.

Madhatter73 10-10-2006 09:03 AM

As I said in the other thread...

It was the 3rd game in 4 nights...
It's the start of the season...

We have 3 Points in 3 games...

Right now we're tied for 5th in the east... We're 2nd in our division...

It's not the end of the world yet... Give them a chance to get their feet under them...

FlaPanthers7 10-10-2006 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madhatter73 (Post 6715555)
As I said in the other thread...

It was the 3rd game in 4 nights...
It's the start of the season...

We have 3 Points in 3 games...

Right now we're tied for 5th in the east... We're 2nd in our division...

It's not the end of the world yet... Give them a chance to get their feet under them...

Right, and don't forget the d-men have only had 5 actual games together as a unit since the final roster was set.

Panthers Rock 10-10-2006 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlaPanthers7 (Post 6715612)
Right, and don't forget the d-men have only had 5 actual games together as a unit since the final roster was set.

For the most part, because consider the fact that the 3rd pairing has been changed for every game this regular season, he's switched out Montador, Kiwi, and Jackman so far, cause he's not sure who to use. Each has their ups and downs but none stand out as a clear choice yet.

Mogo 10-10-2006 09:33 AM

I dont think anyone is hitting the panic button here. From what I read / hear it seems like the team is looking like the years before flat no motivation team. I cant believe these shot counts against us

Laus723 10-10-2006 09:45 AM

The only thing you're right on is maybe Belfour. It's 3 games in, RELAX!:shakehead

Rotang 10-10-2006 05:58 PM

I can think of a few teams who would take Olesz off your hands ;)


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