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Catch-22 10-13-2006 08:05 AM

Rivet and Souray are too slow
 
I guess I am stating the obvious but our defense is very average and since Ribeiro is gone, this area is now our biggest positional weakness.

To start off, I should say that I do not hate either of these players. I still actually think they're both decent players. I like what Souray brings in terms of toughness and his shot. I used to like Rivet more (in the old NHL) and he certainly isn't a bad player worthy of the crap treatment he's had from Ribeiro fans in Montreal. However...

My observation is that Souray and Rivet are too slow to be playing on the same pairing and probably even the same team. Rivet is too slow. Souray is both slow and unreliable. There is little room for slow and unreliable players anymore. IMO, Komisarek is clearly capable of taking Rivet's stay-at-home spot and Cote will eventually be the same type of d-man, too. Niinimaa functions well in this role as well. Many of you may have noticed but in addition to losing 5lbs [he actually didn't lose 5lbs] Komisarek has also picked up an extra gear. He's obviously worked on his skating alot and IMO Rivet will very soon become a redundant and expensive liability.

Souray is a different kettle of fish. Defensively he is more unreliable than Rivet but his shot makes him a decent PP QB. I'm not certain we have a player ready to replace him in that position. The common sentiment that many of us harbour is that Souray should go. It's based on what is in my opionion the very correct philosophy that a defenseman's number one job is defense. But since our biggest statisitcal quandry is goal scoring, perhaps we should look at replacing Rivet and keeping Souray for the time being? When the coaching staff is convinced that replacements are found/ready I will not be disappointed to see one or both of these guys replaced.

Why we have these two guys on the same pairing, I'm not sure. Maybe the philosophy is that their combined experience will make up for their inadequacies. However, looking at good teams like Anaheim, SJ, Buffalo, Calgary (none provide good examples last night except Calgary...it was one hell of a weird night in the NHL), I cannot help but think that these guys should first be split up and then replaced ASAP or in the medium term...meaning when replacements are ready (just so that I don't get 100 replies about why we shouldn't get rid of them right now). Again, let me reiterat. I generally like these players. But I do not think they will be able to contribute to our success against the quick skilled teams that we will encounter if we climb up the playoff pyramid.

I make these comments thinking primarily back to the Buffalo game (but many games against fast teams last season can also be referred to), because Buffalo I think is probably the best team in the eastern conference and that's where we want to be. These guys looked like pylons out there against Buffalo's speedy, gritty forwards. Flashback to Rivet in the corner on Buffalo's tying goal.

Thoughts, comments?

waffledave 10-13-2006 08:11 AM

I agree they should not be on the same pairing, but both of them are excellent defenders. Rivet with Markov and Souray with Komo...That's how it was last year.

We have a strong defence top to bottom. Replacing any of these guys is a mistake, they mean too much in the locker room. Along with Saku, Souray and Rivet are some of the most respected vets in the league.

Komisreak didn't lose 5 lbs, he gained like 10.

Catch-22 10-13-2006 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waffledave (Post 6747415)
I agree they should not be on the same pairing, but both of them are excellent defenders. Rivet with Markov and Souray with Komo...That's how it was last year.

We have a strong defence top to bottom. Replacing any of these guys is a mistake, they mean too much in the locker room. Along with Saku, Souray and Rivet are some of the most respected vets in the league.

Komisreak didn't lose 5 lbs, he gained like 10.


You're right, he did gain a few lbs. I stand corrected. But he also gained a gear and that is invaluable today.

I am stuck a little on the leadership issue. However, I think a leader must lead where the game is played, which is on the ice. If Rivet is deemd to slow to be effective, (again, I'm not saying he's terrible but just slow), then I don't know how much better off we are because of his locker room leadership. But it is a problem, I agree.

mcphee 10-13-2006 09:04 AM

When we call a player slow, it could mean a few things, skating, reaction, recognition, but it adds up to the same result.

I don't believe Rivet is slow in terms of mobility. He's an average skater, and average laterally imo. His reads are alos average. I've always liked the guy but feared he'd struggle in a league that didn't allow the hack and whack as a defensive tactic. I was wrong and thought he had his best year in 05-06. I've always thought that Rivet doesn't have one exceptional skill though, that would make him the lead guy on his pairing. I think his coach trusts him, and that may be his best quality. As the support guy for a more talented partner, he's very valuable.

Souray's different. He doesn't have quick feet and turns become an issue. I don't think he reads the play very quickly and gets caught flat footed too often. He has a great shot, seems to have a knack for making key plays, and is tougher'n'hell. So, if this makes sense, he isn't as complete as Rivet but does have some exceptional qualities that Rivet doesn't.

I wasn't fond of the pairing from the outset but I don't have a problem with them staying together to see if they hit their stride. Niinimaa might give them some flexibility, we'll see.

I think the pairing is fine in set situations, pp, faceoff play in their zone, it's during the flow 5 on 5 where they get in trouble at times. The staff has to see what we do, I imagine things get worked on. Both are coachable players. Continuity is a huge part of defensive play, along with the forward/defense gaps. I think we see what we'll have all year, change isn't always necessary.

AD 10-13-2006 09:13 AM

I like both players for the toughness they bring. The intensity etc.

i do agree that we have to split them up though.

Markov-Rivet
Souray-Komisarek
Niinima-Dandenault

Kafka 10-13-2006 09:19 AM

It's time to start a thread on a possible trade between Nashville and Montreal!!! It might sound unbelievable, but they have big defense problems while they have talented young offensive Dmen (Zidlicky, Hamnuis, Weber, Suter, Timonen). To me its an Ecklund situation: each team could win.

oli500 10-13-2006 09:34 AM

People should leave souray alone in my opinion. We all now about his brain cramps and how people can just skate urond him most of the time. At the end of all of this the guy brings some much needid toughness to are blue line. Vs Phillie everytime a player would go near abeisher souray would be the first one there to direct trafic and protect the crease and it happen more than once. Its important you have players that can protect your goalie because peopple are going to try to crash the net pretty often. I can live with souray or rivet brain cramp as long as they make thinks tough for the other team when things get nasty urond the net. Souray will allways be there for a teamate. I am a huge markov fan and im not trying to say anything negative on him but its not dandenault or markov who will stop players when things get nasty and be ready to trow theire gloves down when things get dirty.

Marksman 10-13-2006 09:53 AM

Rivet Komisarek and Bouillon are tough defencemen too and Niinimaa isnt shrinking violet either. In dont see big problems in that department even if we lost Souray.

Fozz 10-13-2006 10:38 AM

I'm one of the many that though Rivet would become a liability in the new NHL. However, I was pleasantly surprised with his play last year. He really did have a solid season. Having said that, I'm not as impressed with his play this year. However, IMO, the biggest liability on that pairing is Souray, and by far! He's so unpredictable and just makes bad decisions at times. Also, he should be much more physical in his own zone. He seems to avoid laying out the big hit when he's in a perfect position to dish it out... I wonder if he isn't slightly injured. However, I agree that his canon on the PP is quite valuable. I wouldn't call him a PP QB (that's Markov's job) but a PP trigger man.

White Snake* 10-13-2006 10:43 AM

Souray is one of the most important peices to our team. If we lost him I would seriously smack all hab fans who chased him outta town. Rivet on the other hand is average but brings nothing special. WE could afford to lose him

Habsy 10-13-2006 10:56 AM

I loathe watching the pairing of Souray-Rivet but I do not see how we can break them up at this point because Markov-Komisarek and Niinimaa-Dandenault are playing well. I think it would be a greater detriment breaking up those other two pairings. Carbo will need to reduce the icetime of the twin toddlers making them our third pairing and use Souray on PP.

Shabutie 10-13-2006 11:03 AM

Both seem to me like average skaters...Maybe you mean reaction time? As they both seemed to be behind the play quite often (in terms of coverage). I definitely agree that both of them need to be split. I'd go with;

Rivet - Markov
Komi - Souray
Niinima - Dandenault

Catch-22 10-13-2006 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shabutie (Post 6748554)
Both seem to me like average skaters...Maybe you mean reaction time? As they both seemed to be behind the play quite often (in terms of coverage). I definitely agree that both of them need to be split. I'd go with;

Sourray - Markov
Komi - Rivet
Niinima - Dandenault

I meant both quickness and speed. I don't think anybody has ever accused either of these guys of being light on their feet.

waffledave 10-13-2006 11:09 AM

The main problem with these guys (Souray in particular) is not their speed. They are decent skaters with good speed for guys as big as they are.

The problem is that they play too far back. Ever notice how far back Souray is from the play? Eventually he can't go back any further and has to stop. But when he stops, the opposing forward is coming at him a ton of steam and blows by him, so then he has to turn around and chase. That's why he always looks slow.

Shabutie 10-13-2006 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Snake (Post 6748410)
Souray is one of the most important peices to our team. If we lost him I would seriously smack all hab fans who chased him outta town. Rivet on the other hand is average but brings nothing special. WE could afford to lose him

I agree and disagree at the same time. Rivet really does bleed bleu blanc rouge...We've seen him finish his shift and do everything he could to clear the puck when he was in serious pain multiple times...which is something you won't get from Markov, Komi, Souray (well maybe) or Niinima (I'd put dandy on the maybe list). To me though, he should be nothing more than a 6th and really shouldn't be on the PP (We have Niinima and Dandenault afterall who are both much more capable at playing that role). His leadership is also unquestionable...he's just given a bigger role than he deserves imo.

Sourray on the other hand, probably has the hardest shot in the NHL, which as we've seen on the PP is invaluable. He and Markov are what make the PP what it is imo...He's not as bad on D as some people credit him, but he does often get caught out of position and is sometimes one step behind the play...

Shabutie 10-13-2006 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catch-22 (Post 6748581)
I meant both quickness and speed. I don't think anybody has ever accused either of these guys of being light on their feet.

Compared to most D's I think they're quite average. However I do believe that you can't have them both on the same line. It'll be interesting to see what Carbs does. I remember reading that the D pairings for this season were supposed to be;

Rivet - Markov
Komi - Souray
Niinima - Dandy

...never happened

Duster 10-13-2006 11:39 AM

I think it's way too early to make any kind of judgment on the D. The existing combo of Rivet and Souray can and should work.

Personally, I would like to see Rivet play with Niinimaa, and Souray partnered with Dandy. I'm not saying those pairings would work but I'd be curious to see how well they would handle the Sabres and Senators of this world. On paper, they would be an interesting match i.e a stay at home physical defenseman paired with a fast, mobile defenseman just like we are seeing with Markov-Komisarek. However, it seems Carbo wants a pairing that can move up with speed - Western Conference style, and a rugged defensive pairing.

mcphee 10-13-2006 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duster (Post 6748857)
I think it's way too early to make any kind of judgment on the D. The existing combo of Rivet and Souray can and should work.

Personally, I would like to see Rivet play with Niinimaa, and Souray partnered with Dandy. I'm not saying those pairings would work but I'd be curious to see how well they would handle the Sabres and Senators of this world. On paper, they would be an interesting match i.e a stay at home physical defenseman paired with a fast, mobile defenseman just like we are seeing with Markov-Komisarek. However, it seems Carbo wants a pairing that can move up with speed - Western Conference style, and a rugged defensive pairing.

I think that if Carbo recruited me, I'd suggest your pairings. I have no problem letting things come together,but I think yours are probably the best.

SOLR 10-13-2006 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catch-22 (Post 6747390)
Souray is a different kettle of fish. Defensively he is more unreliable than Rivet but his shot makes him a decent PP QB. I'm not certain we have a player ready to replace him in that position. The common sentiment that many of us harbour is that Souray should go. It's based on what is in my opionion the very correct philosophy that a defenseman's number one job is defense. But since our biggest statisitcal quandry is goal scoring, perhaps we should look at replacing Rivet and keeping Souray for the time being? When the coaching staff is convinced that replacements are found/ready I will not be disappointed to see one or both of these guys replaced.

Andrei Kostitsyn, simple, better than Sourray already. The kid needs to get the same opportunities Lats is getting asap. Problem is...no spots upfront. Make Kost play D?! rofl

Good post, I think Rivet can be better than he is now, for me the "rogue" D have been Sourray for a pretty long time. The guy just isnt a stable "make it happen" kind of D. I would deal him in march with another asset to get a real 2nd pairing D. And like I said, if we really need a PP QB, we'll need to do something with either Perezhogin or Samsonov to make a place for Kost. Ive stated it often, I didnt liked the Samsonov move one bit, Kost would already be better on that line since hes a shooter. Samsonov is only hurting the progress of Kost in a very habs way.

I wont say I wish samsonov gets hurt because its sad to think like that as a human being, but If he does he will be beaten by a guy that is better physically, defensively, got a much better shot, can dangle like him and is as fast as him. Ok Kost wouldnt be as good as Sergei in the first 40 games, but would be clearly superior(by a lot) after. Without talking about Kost anymore, if Sergei doesnt explode soon, Perezhogin should get a shot on the 2nd line, we know how well he plays with Pleckanec. I like what I see of Perez in the first 3 games.

As for our D, I would prefer a solid stay at home D without a real 2nd PP QB. Anyway. What are we waiting to try Streit?!!! Put sourray in the stands and give some ice to Streit, a proven PP QB, less in the NHL ok, but he was getting much better near the end of last year.

Kafka 10-13-2006 12:06 PM

Am I the only one here who thinks Komisarek should be tryed on the first PP unit instead of Rivet? I have to admit I don't know you has the best shot, but Komisarek now drives at the net at 5-5... He knows how fast the game is and one day will play on the PP... why not now?

waffledave 10-13-2006 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kafka (Post 6749046)
Am I the only one here who thinks Komisarek should be tryed on the first PP unit instead of Rivet? I have to admit I don't know you has the best shot, but Komisarek now drives at the net at 5-5... He knows how fast the game is and one day will play on the PP... why not now?

Komisarek has an excellent shot. He actually was more of an offensive guy in college but in the NHL he's spent his entire career focusing on defense, which has stunted his offensive development a little bit.

Rivet has an underrated shot though. The guy has a real laser, I think he could have been a decent forward.

Shabutie 10-13-2006 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kafka (Post 6749046)
Am I the only one here who thinks Komisarek should be tryed on the first PP unit instead of Rivet? I have to admit I don't know you has the best shot, but Komisarek now drives at the net at 5-5... He knows how fast the game is and one day will play on the PP... why not now?

Rivet is on the second PP unit...and Imo Dandy or Niinima should replace him.

Duff88 10-13-2006 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shabutie (Post 6748554)
Both seem to me like average skaters...Maybe you mean reaction time? As they both seemed to be behind the play quite often (in terms of coverage). I definitely agree that both of them need to be split. I'd go with;

Sourray - Markov
Komi - Rivet
Niinima - Dandenault

Souray, Markov and Niinimaa are our LDs while Komi, Rivet and Dandenault are the RDs. You've got to keep that in mind when making the pairings cause it'd be a bad idea to play either Komi or Rivet on the left side.

Teufelsdreck 10-13-2006 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shabutie (Post 6748554)
Both seem to me like average skaters...Maybe you mean reaction time? As they both seemed to be behind the play quite often (in terms of coverage). I definitely agree that both of them need to be split. I'd go with;

Sourray - Markov
Komi - Rivet
Niinima - Dandenault

You have noticed that both Souray and Markov shoot left while both Komisarek and Rivet shoot right, or have you? Perhaps that doesn't make any difference to you, but I think it does to Carbonneau.

Shabutie 10-13-2006 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck (Post 6749228)
You have noticed that both Souray and Markov shoot left while both Komisarek and Rivet shoot right, or have you? Perhaps that doesn't make any difference to you, but I think it does to Carbonneau.

Check the 2nd one I posted...I made an error.


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