HFBoards

HFBoards (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/index.php)
-   New York Rangers (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24)
-   -   Messier and Sather (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=30389)

fuhr 11-23-2003 05:15 AM

Messier and Sather
 
Why do most of you seem to want Mess gone? I understand your anger towards Sather,right or wrong, but the Messier one makes no sense. It's understandable that some of you think he plays too much sometimes but to be honest,who's been the Rangers best forward this year? Which line has been their best? The answer to both those questions involve Mark Messier. Some of you are mad that Lundmark and some of the other kids aren't getting more playing time but how is that Messier's fault? Instead of *****ing that your best forwward plays too much how about you complain about the guys who are not playing well......god knows there are a bunch of them on this team. He may be 42 but he seems to care more about how the Rangers perform than almost the entire team.

klingsor 11-23-2003 05:43 AM

Got a question for you, fuhr.

If Messier was put on waivers do you think any team would pick him up?

SingnBluesOnBroadway 11-23-2003 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuhr
Why do most of you seem to want Mess gone? I understand your anger towards Sather,right or wrong, but the Messier one makes no sense. It's understandable that some of you think he plays too much sometimes but to be honest,who's been the Rangers best forward this year? Which line has been their best? The answer to both those questions involve Mark Messier. Some of you are mad that Lundmark and some of the other kids aren't getting more playing time but how is that Messier's fault? Instead of *****ing that your best forwward plays too much how about you complain about the guys who are not playing well......god knows there are a bunch of them on this team. He may be 42 but he seems to care more about how the Rangers perform than almost the entire team.


Do you every actually read this board?

Lundyfan 11-23-2003 07:02 AM

Talk to me in January or Feb. when Messier is so tired and injured he can barely pull himself along the ice. The fact that Sather lets him dictate his ice time and plays him 18-20 minutes a night is a crime.

Brooklyn Ranger 11-23-2003 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lundyfan
Talk to me in January or Feb. when Messier is so tired and injured he can barely pull himself along the ice. The fact that Sather lets him dictate his ice time and plays him 18-20 minutes a night is a crime.

It didn't take long for this crap to show up. Sorry, the only person putting Messier out there is SATHER. And give Messier a little credit too--he's playing a lot harder and producing, unlike the players who's ice time he's taking. If and when the Lindros' and Nedved's and Kovalev's of the group start producing, let's revisit the issue then.

Tell me, do you think that Messier is dictating the way Holik is being mis-played too? Or is that solely Jackass' fault?

#37-#93-#27* 11-23-2003 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuhr
Why do most of you seem to want Mess gone? I understand your anger towards Sather,right or wrong, but the Messier one makes no sense. It's understandable that some of you think he plays too much sometimes but to be honest,who's been the Rangers best forward this year? Which line has been their best? The answer to both those questions involve Mark Messier. Some of you are mad that Lundmark and some of the other kids aren't getting more playing time but how is that Messier's fault? Instead of *****ing that your best forwward plays too much how about you complain about the guys who are not playing well......god knows there are a bunch of them on this team. He may be 42 but he seems to care more about how the Rangers perform than almost the entire team.

Why do you comment so much on this team when you know nothing about them?

Messier has scored but he's given every opportunity to do so, more so then the likes of Holik, Carter, Nedved etc. Those guys are who we need to be given the important minutes. Messier takes away from others that can do more then him with the time lost to him.

Stick to the Oilers, please, you were wrong about Dunham and are wrong about Messier. We Ranger fans don't need your opinion which is based on written text about our team.

Lundyfan 11-23-2003 11:34 AM

Do you honestly think Mark doesn't have a say in his ice time? After all, he IS Mark Messier.

Brooklyn Ranger 11-23-2003 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lundyfan
Do you honestly think Mark doesn't have a say in his ice time? After all, he IS Mark Messier.

I honestly believe that Messier will do anything to help the Rangers win. If that means playing until he drops, he'll do it. If that means playing with lesser skilled players and getting less ice time, he'll do it. He's ready to give his all any time he's on the ice. And as long as Sather keeps calling his number, he'll go over the boards. So, yes, I honestly think that Sather is the one who determines how much ice time each and every player receives.

Outside of game situations, I think Messier does have some control over his practice time and how much he does at practice. Whether this is an issue for anyone besides the fans, I don't know. What I do know is that outside of Dunham, Messier has been the best player on the Rangers through the first 20 games. And given the other players on this team, it's pretty sad that a 42 year old player has more drive and determination to play well and win than they do.

We can argue until the cows come home (unlikely where I live) about how much ice time Messier should receive. In a perfect world, it should be less than he's receiving now. However, I haven't seen too many games where all the Rangers actually play like they should and until that happens, Messier will continue to get "too much" ice time. Because, he's ready willing and able and to this point, he's produced.

fuhr 11-24-2003 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klingsor
Got a question for you, fuhr.

If Messier was put on waivers do you think any team would pick him up?

I think so....but i'm sure the $$$ issue would come into it,that would scare some teams off. What is Mess making this year? Is it about $3 mill? He's not a $3 million player but you can say that almost the whole ranger team is over-paid.

fuhr 11-24-2003 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
Do you every actually read this board?


Yes i do and the majority of people who are responding to this post seem to agree on how well Messier is playing this season. I totally agree that he shouldn't be playing as much as he is if everyone else was playing well but they are not.

As far as things go with you #37-#93-#27,you my not agree with my opinion but i do follow the Rangers throughout most seasons and watch as many games as i can. Do you know anything about any other team in the NHL or just the Rangers? I'm assuming you don't just watch the Rangers play and do know something about hockey outside of New York. Just as i know more about hockey than just what concerns the Oilers.I've already stated on here i was wrong about Dunham so that's a non-issue.

So,can you please explain to me how Carter,Holik,Nedved,etc. have not been given important minutes on this team this season? Most of those guys still have played more than Messier most nights. How much would you like Mess to play? Is 5 minutes too much for you? When Lindros is playing,he doesn't usually play much more than 15 a game. Between 10-15 minutes a night should be what he plays if everone else is doing their jobs.....which they are not.

You have a complaint about Sather that's fine but playing Messier when he has this season has been one of his better moves. Maybe you're right i guess Sather should keep playing those guys and lose even more games because god forbid you play a guy who might be 42 but shows more desire night in and night out than 3/4 of the Rangers. If it wasn't for Messier,Simon and Barnaby this season,what do you think the Rangers win total would be this year? Just curious?

True Blue 11-24-2003 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuhr
So,can you please explain to me how Carter,Holik,Nedved,etc. have not been given important minutes on this team this season? Most of those guys still have played more than Messier most nights. How much would you like Mess to play? Is 5 minutes too much for you? When Lindros is playing,he doesn't usually play much more than 15 a game.

If you have really read these boards, then you would not be posting this. On most nights, Messier plays more than any other forward not named Kovalev. MANY nights has he had more ice time than Holik. Almost every night does he have more than Lindros.
How much would be optimal for him to play? How about the 12 minutes that the younger Larionov plays in NJ?
And no, when Lindros is playing, Messier's ice time does not decrease because up until last night, Jackass would shove Lindros out of position so that Messier does not become a 4th liner.
Is it Messier's fault? No, becuase while I do think that he does wield influence as far as his ice time is concerned, it is Sather's ultimate responsibility. JAckass is the one who plays Messier like a 23 year old instead of a 43 year old.

fuhr 11-24-2003 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
If you have really read these boards, then you would not be posting this. On most nights, Messier plays more than any other forward not named Kovalev. MANY nights has he had more ice time than Holik. Almost every night does he have more than Lindros.
How much would be optimal for him to play? How about the 12 minutes that the younger Larionov plays in NJ?
And no, when Lindros is playing, Messier's ice time does not decrease because up until last night, Jackass would shove Lindros out of position so that Messier does not become a 4th liner.
Is it Messier's fault? No, becuase while I do think that he does wield influence as far as his ice time is concerned, it is Sather's ultimate responsibility. JAckass is the one who plays Messier like a 23 year old instead of a 43 year old.



One thing you don't seem to mention,Messier is one of the Rangers best players on most nights this season. Where as the same can't be said about Larionov. Also,please read below and tell me you gets the least amount of ice time on "MOST" nights. Your Messier comment is dead wrong when it comes to how much he plays compared to every other forward not named "Kovalev.

Oct.10
Nedved 23:10,Kovalev 23:00,Holik 18:30,Lindros 15:36,Messier 12:46

Oct.11
Nedved 17:44,Messier 16:09,Kovalev 15:33,Holik 15:28,Lindros 15:17

Oct.16
Nedved 20:57,Lindros 19:01,Kovalev 18:21,Messier 15:36,Holik 12:57

Oct.18
Kovalev 24:08,Nedved 23:35,Holik 16:25,Lindros 16:16,Messier 13:10

Oct.20
Nedved 21:07,Kovalev 19:48,Holik 19:19,Messier 13:37,Lindros10:37-Hurt

Oct.25
Nedved 20:54,Holik 19:38,Kovalev 19:28,Messier 14:35,Lindros - DNP

Oct.28
Nedved 23:51,Kovalev 22:31,Messier 19:55,Holik 17:27,Lindros - DNP

Oct.30
Nedved 24:39,Kovalev 23:18,Holik 21:35,Messier 18:48,Lindros - DNP

Nov.1
Nedved 20:30,Kovalev 19:52,Holik 16:27,Messier 16:14,Lindros - DNP

Nov.2
Holik 21:07,Messier 18:54,Kovalev 17:48,Nedved5:19(Hurt),Lindros - DNP

Nov.4
Holik 17:15,Messier 17:09,Lindros - DNP,Nedved - DNP

Nov.6
Kovalev 21:57,Nedved 18:59,Messier 18:18,Holik 17:47,Lindros - DNP

Nov.8
Holik 21:17,Lindros 19:56,Nedved 19:47,Kovalev 19:31,Messier 18:30

Nov.10
Kovalev 20:44,Holik 17:35,Lindros 17:21,Messier 17:16,Nedved 16:00

Nov.12
Kovalev 23:34,Nedved 19:31,Messier 18:25,Holik 13:24,Lindros1:49(Hurt)

Nov.15
Kovalev 19:59,Nedved 18:28,Holik 17:40,Messier 16:16,Lindros - DNP

Nov.16
Kovalev 23:38,Nedved 22:26,Messier 20:07,Holik 14:10,Lindros - DNP

Nov.18
Kovalev 20:41,Holik 18:08,Messier 17:38,Nedved 16:51,Lindros - DNP

Nov.20
Nedved 22:17,Kovalev 21:16,Holik 18:48,Messier 16:51,Lindros - DNP

Nov.23
Nedved 19:47,Kovalev 18:27,Holik 16:04,Messier 15:03,Lindros 12:34

moosemessier 11-25-2003 07:06 AM

i ave the answer why -

cuz they are idiots!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
Do you every actually read this board?


moosemessier 11-25-2003 07:09 AM

of course man. teams would love to have him come playoff run. even now. he is a great leader and can still play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by klingsor
Got a question for you, fuhr.

If Messier was put on waivers do you think any team would pick him up?


ddheyman 11-25-2003 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuhr
Yes i do and the majority of people who are responding to this post seem to agree on how well Messier is playing this season. I totally agree that he shouldn't be playing as much as he is if everyone else was playing well but they are not.

As far as things go with you #37-#93-#27,you my not agree with my opinion but i do follow the Rangers throughout most seasons and watch as many games as i can. Do you know anything about any other team in the NHL or just the Rangers? I'm assuming you don't just watch the Rangers play and do know something about hockey outside of New York. Just as i know more about hockey than just what concerns the Oilers.I've already stated on here i was wrong about Dunham so that's a non-issue.

So,can you please explain to me how Carter,Holik,Nedved,etc. have not been given important minutes on this team this season? Most of those guys still have played more than Messier most nights. How much would you like Mess to play? Is 5 minutes too much for you? When Lindros is playing,he doesn't usually play much more than 15 a game. Between 10-15 minutes a night should be what he plays if everone else is doing their jobs.....which they are not.

You have a complaint about Sather that's fine but playing Messier when he has this season has been one of his better moves. Maybe you're right i guess Sather should keep playing those guys and lose even more games because god forbid you play a guy who might be 42 but shows more desire night in and night out than 3/4 of the Rangers. If it wasn't for Messier,Simon and Barnaby this season,what do you think the Rangers win total would be this year? Just curious?

Couldn't agree more.

True Blue 11-25-2003 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuhr
One thing you don't seem to mention,Messier is one of the Rangers best players on most nights this season. Where as the same can't be said about Larionov.

Those who do not watch the team on a regular basis would make the comment that you have. How do you determine who the best player is? Byt the amount of points scored? That does not tell you how poorly he may have played defensively or how many giveaways he had.

"Your Messier comment is dead wrong when it comes to how much he plays compared to every other forward not named "Kovalev."

Ok, sorry. So in 8 games, he was in top 3 in ice time. And on most nights he is at least in the top 5. Fact is, Messier is no longer capable of playing against top players or top defensive pairings. Fact is, Messier wears down by playing too much. And the minutes that he is getting is too much. His good play comes when he is playing against the 3rd/4th lines of other teams and the 3rd defensive pairings. He is woefully exposed when going against the top 2 lines and the top defensive pairings.

moosemessier 11-25-2003 09:43 AM

smart - lets give less time to a productive player. please dont do my taxes ever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Those who do not watch the team on a regular basis would make the comment that you have. How do you determine who the best player is? Byt the amount of points scored? That does not tell you how poorly he may have played defensively or how many giveaways he had.

"Your Messier comment is dead wrong when it comes to how much he plays compared to every other forward not named "Kovalev."

Ok, sorry. So in 8 games, he was in top 3 in ice time. And on most nights he is at least in the top 5. Fact is, Messier is no longer capable of playing against top players or top defensive pairings. Fact is, Messier wears down by playing too much. And the minutes that he is getting is too much. His good play comes when he is playing against the 3rd/4th lines of other teams and the 3rd defensive pairings. He is woefully exposed when going against the top 2 lines and the top defensive pairings.


True Blue 11-25-2003 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moosemessier
smart - lets give less time to a productive player. please dont do my taxes ever.

Maybe you'd like your taxes done by a guy that has been up for 64 straight hours, but not me.
Come on, MM. You've seen the results of what happens when Messier plays as much as he does. He looks good in October and November, slows down in December, and looks (and plays) like a corpse for the rest of the year.

NewYorkStranger 11-25-2003 06:17 PM

Mark Messier has been fantastic this year. The fact that Messier is recieving a lot of ice time (5th amongst foward this year) is a testament to his ability.

Do i honestly believe Messier will keep up this pace for the rest of this season? Not a chance. Do I believe he will wear down after an 82 game haul regardless of minutes? Most likely. I believe riding Messier while he is hot may be the best thing, if he can carry us another few weeks until the other guys (hopefully) come around then his minutes can be decreased IF (and only if) his production lessens.


I would LOVE to see Jamie Lundmark and Dominick Moore on the ice more often. I want to see a youth movement with this team as much as anyone else does. But regardless of whether or not this team is constructed soundly (I dont believe it is) I am first and foremost a Ranger fan, have been since childhood and will live and die with them every game. I will support them and anguish after every loss, and smile after every victory.


Through 21 games we are a game over .500, and tied with the Ottawa Senators for the 7th spot in the east. I, for one, am very glad to be in this position, one from which we can make a strong run into a solid eastern conference playoff berth. Its been a much better start than we have had in a while, and we have shown both glimpses of greatness and ineptitude. Lets try and support the team and hope we can see more of the former than the latter through the rest of the season.

fuhr 11-25-2003 08:52 PM

What you don't seem to get is Messier is playing this much so far for two reasons:1)He's playing better than most of the other forwards 2)Which is the most important reason,injury. He doesn't play more than Lindros and when everyone is healthy Mess will max out on most nights around the 12-15 minute range if everyone else is doing their job. If some players aren't doing their jobs than Messier should play more!!!

SingnBluesOnBroadway 11-26-2003 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuhr
2)Which is the most important reason,injury. He doesn't play more than Lindros and when everyone is healthy Mess will max out on most nights around the 12-15 minute range if everyone else is doing their job. If some players aren't doing their jobs than Messier should play more!!!

That's simply not true. Last night Messier played 18:03 to Lindros' 12:02.

He played more than Lindros against the Sens as well.

True Blue 11-26-2003 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuhr
If some players aren't doing their jobs than Messier should play more!!!

Who did not do their job against the 'Sens? Who did not do their job last night against Tampa? Did Holik not do his job? Must be since Messier got more ice time than him. Did Nedved not do his job? Must be since Messier got more ice time than him. Did Lindros not do his job? Must be since Messier got more ice time than him. Apparently there are a lot of people who did not do their job in 6-2 and a 2-0 wins.

moosemessier 11-26-2003 05:59 AM

didnt lindros JUST come back from injury?

isnt messier one of the top hottest forwards on that team? ride him man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
That's simply not true. Last night Messier played 18:03 to Lindros' 12:02.

He played more than Lindros against the Sens as well.


moosemessier 11-26-2003 06:02 AM

truw - messier is 42 and should be preserved BUT they need to win now and later. i personally think that messier should not see much PK at all. let the kids. i know the PK and PP are integral in the rangers making the playoffs but that will kill mess.

i think that everyone has been playing well. the rangers looked awesome in the first but average in 2nd & 3rd. jussi was the reason the rangers won.

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Who did not do their job against the 'Sens? Who did not do their job last night against Tampa? Did Holik not do his job? Must be since Messier got more ice time than him. Did Nedved not do his job? Must be since Messier got more ice time than him. Did Lindros not do his job? Must be since Messier got more ice time than him. Apparently there are a lot of people who did not do their job in 6-2 and a 2-0 wins.


True Blue 11-26-2003 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moosemessier
truw - messier is 42 and should be preserved BUT they need to win now and later. i personally think that messier should not see much PK at all. let the kids. i know the PK and PP are integral in the rangers making the playoffs but that will kill mess.

Mess turns 43 in January. It does not matter to me where Messier looses ice time. Be it ES, PP, or PK. But he has got do drop between 5-6 mintues somewhere. I agree that he is playing well, but he simply cannot continue to play so many minutes.

"didnt lindros JUST come back from injury?

isnt messier one of the top hottest forwards on that team? ride him man."

And now Lindros is not injured. And when healthy, he should not be neither a 4th line cener nor a wing. You cannot ride Mess here. He is not even a 35 year old at this point. You can't ride a 43 year old in October and November and expect that he will continue to play well from January-April (May if we are lucky). Like it or not, in order for Messier to be effective anytime afte New Year's, his ice time has got to be cut down. And not just by a minute or 2.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:38 PM.

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com, A property of CraveOnline, a division of AtomicOnline LLC ©2009 CraveOnline Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved.