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leafaholix* 11-02-2006 05:05 AM

Carey Price, still not the best?
 
Is anyone worried that Carey Price, the 5th overall pick in a great draft is still not the best or a standout goalie in junior hockey?

Leland Irving is the best goalie in junior hockey, without question. He was drafted by Calgary at #26 in 2006, his numbers are breathtaking. 1.09 GAA, .955 Save%.

Tyson Sexsmith and Dustin Slade are 1a/1b on the best team in the CHL, they're #2 and 3 in the WHL in GAA and both up there in wins.

Then you have Taylor Dakers, Dan Spence, and Matt Keetley, all up there in GAA.

Carey Price is 7th in GAA, and 6th in Save% behind James Reimer, a late pick in the 2006 draft.

Does it worry anybody that he hasn't lived up to his pre-draft and post-draft expectations? So far he has yet to distance himself from the field at any level.

#44_delivers 11-02-2006 05:35 AM

"It's adversity that makes you a good player and professional players do something about it and the rest give up.," Price said.

montreal knows what its doing, i actualy think we had a great draft year, we are still ranked 6th in organization rankings.
also the new nhl shows me; great and young players will be in abundunces in the form of UFA's.
but the value of tenders are going to be and are high in demand.

NewHabsEra* 11-02-2006 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by your_rogers_bill (Post 6962004)
Is anyone worried that Carey Price, the 5th overall pick in a great draft is still not the best or a standout goalie in junior hockey?

Leland Irving is the best goalie in junior hockey, without question. He was drafted by Calgary at #26 in 2006, his numbers are breathtaking. 1.09 GAA, .955 Save%.

Tyson Sexsmith and Dustin Slade are 1a/1b on the best team in the CHL, they're #2 and 3 in the WHL in GAA and both up there in wins.

Then you have Taylor Dakers, Dan Spence, and Matt Keetley, all up there in GAA.

Carey Price is 7th in GAA, and 6th in Save% behind James Reimer, a late pick in the 2006 draft.

Does it worry anybody that he hasn't lived up to his pre-draft and post-draft expectations? So far he has yet to distance himself from the field at any level.

:shakehead

Dont you think Price would have even better stats than the 2 playing for the best team in the CHL? :dunno:

Brodeur said something that resume it better.. "You are as good as the team playing in front of you"

This is not 100% true but certainly at least 75% accurate... Good goaltenders make the big saves in crucial moments, special goaltenders do it more often with more regularity but you just cant do miracles if your team play bad and deserve to lose... In other words, your goaltender can make your team better but cant do all alone... As good as Luongo is, he has never been able to bring his team in playoffs and Im not even sure he will do it this year with a team lacking scoring punch...

Ive never been a stats fan, even less regarding goaltenders... If the team compete and work hard in front of Price, I just want him to do the big saves, no softies and give his team a chance to win hockey games.. If his team doesnt show up one night, I dont even care if he let some softies in.

leafaholix* 11-02-2006 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #44_delivers (Post 6962032)
"It's adversity that makes you a good player and professional players do something about it and the rest give up.," Price said.

montreal knows what its doing, i actualy think we had a great draft year, we are still ranked 6th in organization rankings.
also the new nhl shows me; great and young players will be in abundunces in the form of UFA's.
but the value of tenders are going to be and are high in demand.

i wouldn't say it was a "great draft".

but that's not the topic. the topic is that one of the highest draft goalies of all time is not and has not been the best or near the best at any level (junior, international).

#44_delivers 11-02-2006 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by your_rogers_bill (Post 6962051)
i wouldn't say it was a "great draft"..

sure you wouldnt say that, and you didnt say that.
Quote:

Originally Posted by your_rogers_bill (Post 6962004)
Is anyone worried that Carey Price, the 5th overall pick in a great draft is still not the best or a standout goalie in junior hockey?.


jazzyreg 11-02-2006 06:15 AM

I honestly believe that without question, the Habs have some of the best goaltenders in their system (Danis, Halak, Price), not to mention the best goaltending coach. I don't think now is the time to worry.

StanAjax 11-02-2006 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by your_rogers_bill (Post 6962051)
i wouldn't say it was a "great draft".

but that's not the topic. the topic is that one of the highest draft goalies of all time is not and has not been the best or near the best at any level (junior, international).

Well, I believe I've read more than once that Roy wasn't that great either in junior.

Dryden arrived in the NHL late.

As long as Melanson and the Habs brass are happy with Price, I'm not worried.

NewHabsEra* 11-02-2006 06:28 AM

Price will be a monster... He has the size, the gloves, reflex, is technically extremmely solid, great puckhandling skills.. Well spoken kid, looks solid between the ears as well... Difinitively in Ward, Miller class to me.

ECWHSWI 11-02-2006 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by your_rogers_bill (Post 6962051)
i wouldn't say it was a "great draft".

but that's not the topic. the topic is that one of the highest draft goalies of all time is not and has not been the best or near the best at any level (junior, international).

must have done something good if he was invited to WJC team camp last year...

Hackett 11-02-2006 07:02 AM

I think this is the perfect reason as to why you just dont look at the plain numbers when it comes to a goaltender or any other player for that matter.

If you only looked at Cechmanek's statistical numbers as an NHL goaltender (particularly in the regular season), you would figure that he was a top 3 goaltender in the NHL. Obviously, this was not the case with Roman. We know there's alot more that goes into rating goaltenders than just numbers ESPECIALLY in the junior level

the habs have a decent track record in terms of drafting and developing goaltenders so I'm pretty sure they know a whole lot more about Price than we do.

So, am I concerned? Not a chance.

Montreal Typical 11-02-2006 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by your_rogers_bill (Post 6962004)
Leland Irving is the best goalie in junior hockey, without question. He was drafted by Calgary at #26 in 2006, his numbers are breathtaking. 1.09 GAA, .955 Save%.

There's a big difference between being the best and having the best stats.

Statistics mean little, especially with goaltenders. A great goaltender will have bad stats playing for a team that can't play defense. A bad goaltender will have very good stats playing for a team that is great defensively. A goaltender is dependant on his team's play in the defensive zone. If his team always allows a lot of great scoring opportunities, the best goaltender is very unlikely to post great stats. If a team only allows a few, and not particularly good, scoring opportunities, the goaltender will likely post great stats even if he's not particularly good himself.

Statistics don't tell the whole story. Statistics don't tell the quality of your team's defense. They don't tell the quality of a defenseman's partner. They don't tell the quality of a center's wingers. They don't tell the quality of a winger's center.

Players can have great stats in the juniors but that does not mean that they are great players, just like them having average stats doesn't mean they are only decent players. A player can make his linemates look much better than they really are, a team's defense can make a goaltender look better, or worse, than he really is, and so on.

AH 11-02-2006 09:08 AM

Nobody is worried. YRB is the only one who seems to be.

BTW, how do you explain the great Andrew Raycroft's 3.02 GAA and .899 save% ???

Whitesnake 11-02-2006 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by your_rogers_bill (Post 6962004)
Is anyone worried that Carey Price, the 5th overall pick in a great draft is still not the best or a standout goalie in junior hockey?

Leland Irving is the best goalie in junior hockey, without question. He was drafted by Calgary at #26 in 2006, his numbers are breathtaking. 1.09 GAA, .955 Save%.

Tyson Sexsmith and Dustin Slade are 1a/1b on the best team in the CHL, they're #2 and 3 in the WHL in GAA and both up there in wins.

Then you have Taylor Dakers, Dan Spence, and Matt Keetley, all up there in GAA.

Carey Price is 7th in GAA, and 6th in Save% behind James Reimer, a late pick in the 2006 draft.

Does it worry anybody that he hasn't lived up to his pre-draft and post-draft expectations? So far he has yet to distance himself from the field at any level.

Why don't we worry???? 'Cause:

1999 : Out of all the goalies in the WHL that year top 20, the only guy that made it in the NHL and having played a number of games is : Jason Labarbera 10th in Save %, and 17th in GAA, the great Bryce Wandler being the best in both stats...

2001 WHL Season: Best Save % = 1-Davis Parley 2-Billy Thompson 3-Barry Brust
Cam Ward was 5th.....though he was 1st in G.A.A. with the "greats" Harding, Bendera and Brust following him...

2002 : Best G.A.A. = Beauchemin, Guard, MacIntosh, Ward, Glass
Best Save% = Ward was 1st but followed by the great Harding, McIntosh, Guard, Grenier

2003: While Ward is up there, the great Mike Brodeur had the best save %, Jeff Harvey was #4 (who?) and Guard and Harvey had better GAA than Ward

2004: Price had better Save % and GAA than the saviour Pogge.....Does that make Pogge a bad goalie? By the way how was Pogge's stats when he was playing for a mediocre team compared to a great one????

And I could've talk about the great Kenric Exner of 1998, the great Brent Belecki of 1997 or the great Chris Wickenheiser or Donovan Nunweiler of 1997.....

Yeah! Numbers tells the whole story, but strange thing that happened is that if the Leafs thought that numbers meant a lot they would've never traded one of last year's worst goalie (based on numbers) for one of Juniors top goalie in the world (based on numbers)..............Hope for you that Reimer makes up for one of the worst trades in history.......based on numbers......

PrairieHabber 11-02-2006 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StanAjax (Post 6962083)
Well, I believe I've read more than once that Roy wasn't that great either in junior.

Dryden arrived in the NHL late.

As long as Melanson and the Habs brass are happy with Price, I'm not worried.

It's not that Roy wasn't that great, it was his team that was awful. I remember Serge Savard saying that one of the reasons they drafted him was because he was a good goalie playing on a bad junior team. To Savard and the Habs scouts that meant he was going to be tested often in game action, and he often faced 50+ shots. There is something to be said about being in a winning environment as a young player, but you don't want a junior goalie who plays behind such a strong team that he doesn't face quality shots very often and isn't given the chance to develop as a result. Hopefully Price will develop into the strong goalie that many think he will be. Time will tell. And to answer our stirring-the-pot friend's question, no it isn't a concern at all. For every Roberto Luongo who dominates hockey at every level on the way to the NHL, you have as many and more examples like Jimmy Waite who do the same until they reach the NHL. More often than not, goalies develop more slowly than skaters do. I was a goalie, now coach goalies, and have seen that to be true most of the time.

AH 11-02-2006 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackett (Post 6962131)
I think this is the perfect reason as to why you just dont look at the plain numbers when it comes to a goaltender or any other player for that matter.

I am sure YRB was lusting all over Justin Pogge when he had real crappy stats on a terrible PG team. Pogge only started having great stats once he got traded to a great Calgary team.

Can we say OVERRATED LEACH !!!

loudi94 11-02-2006 09:24 AM

All I have to say is if you ask any scout in the WHL right now and they'll tell you that Price is the only can't miss NHL calibre goalie playing right now in the WHL. Put him on any of the teams of the goalies you mentioned and his stats would be better. He's taking a porous Tri-Cities D and with the help of a couple of goalscorers, turned them into a team that was pegged for last into a playoff team. Could any of the goalies you mentioned do that? Slade showed he couldn't.

Freaky Habs Fan 11-02-2006 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by your_rogers_bill (Post 6962004)
Is anyone worried that Carey Price, the 5th overall pick in a great draft is still not the best or a standout goalie in junior hockey?

Leland Irving is the best goalie in junior hockey, without question. He was drafted by Calgary at #26 in 2006, his numbers are breathtaking. 1.09 GAA, .955 Save%.

Tyson Sexsmith and Dustin Slade are 1a/1b on the best team in the CHL, they're #2 and 3 in the WHL in GAA and both up there in wins.

Then you have Taylor Dakers, Dan Spence, and Matt Keetley, all up there in GAA.

Carey Price is 7th in GAA, and 6th in Save% behind James Reimer, a late pick in the 2006 draft.

Does it worry anybody that he hasn't lived up to his pre-draft and post-draft expectations? So far he has yet to distance himself from the field at any level.

Statwise, Irving will be the best goaltender two years in a row...so why was he selected 26th overall? Shouldn't he be the next Marty Brodeur?

Sexsmith and Slade are playing for a hockey machine who will host the Memorial Cup...they gave everything to be good this year. They are good, but the team makes them stars in the WHL.

As for Price, his team is better than last year, and he's having better stats. I would be concerned if he was like 15th ++ in the goaltender rankings, but he's almost top 5, behing the 3 goaltender above.

Why should we be worried? And wasn't Price our best goaltender in the camp? Why didn't he made the team?

habfan4 11-02-2006 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #44_delivers (Post 6962055)
sure you wouldnt say that, and you didnt say that.

Classic :biglaugh:

Mathletic 11-02-2006 09:47 AM

btw, Slade is nothing of an NHL prospect

IcE ColD 11-02-2006 09:51 AM

Doesn't Price play for one of the worst team in the CHL?

habfan4 11-02-2006 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by your_rogers_bill (Post 6962004)
Is anyone worried that Carey Price, the 5th overall pick in a great draft is still not the best or a standout goalie in junior hockey?

Leland Irving is the best goalie in junior hockey, without question. He was drafted by Calgary at #26 in 2006, his numbers are breathtaking. 1.09 GAA, .955 Save%.

Tyson Sexsmith and Dustin Slade are 1a/1b on the best team in the CHL, they're #2 and 3 in the WHL in GAA and both up there in wins.

Then you have Taylor Dakers, Dan Spence, and Matt Keetley, all up there in GAA.

Carey Price is 7th in GAA, and 6th in Save% behind James Reimer, a late pick in the 2006 draft.

Does it worry anybody that he hasn't lived up to his pre-draft and post-draft expectations? So far he has yet to distance himself from the field at any level.

The old statistics in a vacuum argument.

Two years ago there were posters who pegged Chris Higgins as a 3rd line player with limited offensive potential - they're strangely silent now. Perhaps in 3 or 4 years the posters who currently point to Price's stats with Tri-City will be equally speachless.

Charge_Seven 11-02-2006 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by habfan4 (Post 6962806)
That explains everything....

:)

I've never been a large Carey Price fan, I always thought he was the lesser of the two goalies (even prior to my Leafs taking...and then trading away...Tuukka Rask). However clearly I don't think Price is a nobody. Price has all the makings of an NHLer, and there's no reason to believe he won't make it. I've always been critical of the selection, but that's been based on where he was taken, and who he was taken over.

That being said, you guys are all correct, that his stats are not something to get hung up on, there's always going to be players who outshine a higher selected guy, what will matter will be what he does when he gets to the show, and I think most expect, at worst, a solid starter. The jury will be out on whether he will be an elite starter until he does it, but I certainly would not panic.

Tuggy 11-02-2006 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charge_Seven (Post 6962868)

That being said, you guys are all correct, that his stats are not something to get hung up on, there's always going to be players who outshine a higher selected guy, what will matter will be what he does when he gets to the show, and I think most expect, at worst, a solid starter. The jury will be out on whether he will be an elite starter until he does it, but I certainly would not panic.

He was our best goalie in training camp against NHL talent players. I'll go by that instead of junior stats (which aren't even that bad) where he plays on a poor team.

Bryzga lol* 11-02-2006 10:22 AM

I'd be worried if Price played badly in the preseason, and he didn't, he was astonishing. The fact that he played so great at the NHL level proves that he takes his game up a notch when the presures on (his career and future with the habs in this case).

He and Irving will battle it out at the WJC camp. Whoever gets the first start in the tournament will probably be in nets for the rest of the tournament, cause he (Irving or Price) will look amazing behind such a great team, and it'll take off from there.

But I could also see them split all the ice time. They seem very qualified compared to Pogge and....whoever backed him up last year.

Charge_Seven 11-02-2006 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuggy (Post 6962993)
He was our best goalie in training camp against NHL talent players. I'll go by that instead of junior stats (which aren't even that bad) where he plays on a poor team.

Precisely what I'm saying, you can debate if he was the right choice (and I'm one of the first to do that), but I don't think his talent is too debatable.


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