HFBoards

HFBoards (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/index.php)
-   Edmonton Oilers (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=38)
-   -   Are the Oil one of the deepest teams? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=31112)

Hemsky4PM 11-25-2003 07:52 PM

Are the Oil one of the deepest teams?
 
Lets look at the guys out right now:
Oates
Comrie
Reasoner

Guys sitting:
Semenov, Salmalainen, and Sarno

Rita is still in Toronto, as are Lynch (playing quite well for the Runners) and Allen.

It's fair to say the team is doing remarkably well considering our top 3 centers are not playing. How many teams could survive that??? L.A., Ottawa, St.Louis...and...starts to thin out. It's a credit to great drafting and a good farm system. It's strange to think of what will happen when Oates comes in. I would think that Smyth moves out to the wing, knocking Chimera out of the line-up. Then when Reasoner comes back there's another dilemma. Maybe Horcoff and Laraque are next to sit, considering Stoll has played so well.

Walsher 11-25-2003 07:54 PM

Not even close. The talent in Toronto is minimal at best and although they are making due without key players they are a long way from being deep and even longer from being deepest. I love this team and would take them to beat any other in the league but they have little depth. No centermen past the top 4 (including Oates), few d-men, and only prospects for forwards. Not many of which are ready or near ready. Still a ton of work to do.

jadeddog 11-25-2003 07:57 PM

i have to agree that we dont really have very much depth at ALL..... and the depth we *do* have is VERY young depth..... not exactly what you want to be banking on in tough times... i think in about 2 years we might have some really good depth, but right now i think not

LoudmouthHemskyfan#1 11-25-2003 07:57 PM

We're low-end deep, which doesn't do alot.

Hemsky4PM 11-25-2003 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
We're low-end deep, which doesn't do alot.

What exactly does this mean??? High end depth? I would think that high end depth means NHL callibre players. I'm not sure if you mean depth in say high talent scorers. In my opinion teams don't keep top end scorers down on the farm if they can help it. I'm not saying that there's no value to having high talent guys playing a lot on the farm for developments sake, just that to me "high end" means NHL callibre.

Sarno may fall into the veteran depth category, he's had 4 years of pro experience. I wouldn't call him an NHL callibre player though.

But, we used to have Pittis, Swanson and Cleary playing on a fairly regular basis. Now we can through in one of 15 forwards and be confident that they will contribute more than those three ever did. I agree that there are "deeper" teams. Ottawa and LA for example. But other teams like Toronto and Detroit, don't, in my opinion, have the same quality and quantity of NHL players they can insert into their line-ups without hesitation.

LoudmouthHemskyfan#1 11-25-2003 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM
What exactly does this mean??? High end depth? I would think that high end depth means NHL callibre players. I'm not sure if you mean depth in say high talent scorers. In my opinion teams don't keep top end scorers down on the farm if they can help it. I'm not saying that there's no value to having high talent guys playing a lot on the farm for developments sake, just that to me "high end" means NHL callibre.

Sarno may fall into the veteran depth category, he's had 4 years of pro experience. I wouldn't call him an NHL callibre player though.

But, we used to have Pittis, Swanson and Cleary playing on a fairly regular basis. Now we can through in one of 15 forwards and be confident that they will contribute more than those three ever did. I agree that there are "deeper" teams. Ottawa and LA for example. But other teams like Toronto and Detroit, don't, in my opinion, have the same quality and quantity of NHL players they can insert into their line-ups without hesitation.

High-end depth would mean a high number players considered to be top six forwards and top four d-men. Your top lines are full of talent, that's what high-end depth would be.

We have lots of players capable of 3rd and 4th line duty, but a lack of those that would be considered top-six on big-time teams.

Hemsky4PM 11-25-2003 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walsher
Not even close. The talent in Toronto is minimal at best and although they are making due without key players they are a long way from being deep and even longer from being deepest. I love this team and would take them to beat any other in the league but they have little depth. No centermen past the top 4 (including Oates), few d-men, and only prospects for forwards. Not many of which are ready or near ready. Still a ton of work to do.

The talent in Toronto is minimal because the big club has two of the top players in Sarno and Salmo.

Let's look at the center position: Oates, Comrie (sitting, but still counts in a depth chart, he's still club property), York, Reasoner, Stoll and Horcoff. Are you telling me that at least 5 of these guys couldn't crack 90% of NHL teams today? I think they would. Not to mention Smyth has filled in at center as well and Sarno is capable of filling in part-time on the 4th line.

Having prospects at forward isn't that bad. Look around the league, there are few teams putting out the call to career AHLers when someone goes down with an injury. The Habs aren't breaking doors down to get Benoit Gratton in the line-up.

Hemsky4PM 11-25-2003 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
High-end depth would mean a high number players considered to be top six forwards and top four d-men. Your top lines are full of talent, that's what high-end depth would be.

We have lots of players capable of 3rd and 4th line duty, but a lack of those that would be considered top-six on big-time teams.

Look at the team's goals for. We have scoring depth. If Comrie wasn't sitting out we'd have at least 7 top 6 forwards, with Isbister having the potential to be an 8th.

thome_26 11-25-2003 08:26 PM

Ya, we definately have good depth. That is the secret to our success. We roll four lines - few other teams can do that and be succesful. On our fourth line we have guys that would make a top six on a good number on teams in the NHL. Most NHL teams would have a spot for Rita, we don't - that shows our depth.

Walsher 11-25-2003 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM
The talent in Toronto is minimal because the big club has two of the top players in Sarno and Salmo.

Let's look at the center position: Oates, Comrie (sitting, but still counts in a depth chart, he's still club property), York, Reasoner, Stoll and Horcoff. Are you telling me that at least 5 of these guys couldn't crack 90% of NHL teams today? I think they would. Not to mention Smyth has filled in at center as well and Sarno is capable of filling in part-time on the 4th line.

Having prospects at forward isn't that bad. Look around the league, there are few teams putting out the call to career AHLers when someone goes down with an injury. The Habs aren't breaking doors down to get Benoit Gratton in the line-up.

Oates is a great centerman, but not playing. Comrie - not playing and probably never will. York would likely be a winger on many other teams but has been an effective centerman. If you think the Oilers have depth down the middle than you must be severely misinformed. Hence the search for a Comrie replacement. Of course guys like Horcoff and Stoll could crack an NHL team - under the right circumstances. The Oilers are so thin down the middle they are getting a chance. To prove my point - why does Smyth need to "fill in at center" if they had a respectable lineup of faceoff men? If Sarno is a depth player on any team things are in dire circumstances. No disrespect to him, but he has been scratching about in the Oilers system for some time now and only until now - when depth became a legitimate issue has he had a chance. Salmo is a prospect but again no proven NHL ability and no way they can consider him a legitimate depth NHL'er. Toronto is brutal with or without Sarno and Salmo. Depth is a huge concern IMO.

LoudmouthHemskyfan#1 11-25-2003 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM
Look at the team's goals for. We have scoring depth. If Comrie wasn't sitting out we'd have at least 7 top 6 forwards, with Isbister having the potential to be an 8th.

Our scoring depth is okay, but we don't exactly have guys who are going to light it up ala a team like Ottawa. I'm pretty sure you'd rather have their best 6 forwards, even though they're in a slump.

Our "top-six":

York-he's legit, but 2nd line
Dvorak-slowly proving he's also legit, but again, 2nd line
Smyth-legit, 1st/2nd line
Hemsky-young, but I'd argue legit, 2nd line right now
Torres-close to legit, 2nd line, I'd like him better on 3rd though, keep him hidden
Isbister-not right now, 3rd line
Reasoner-good guy, need him on the team, but not top-six, perfect 3rd line center on a good hockey team
Oates-I sure hope so, but who really knows, 2nd line
Comrie-would be completely legit top-six, 1st/2nd line

Don't really think there's an argument for anyone else. There's no real superstar in there, barely even supporting stars. We could be better, that's my main point I guess, and that we shouldn't be ranking ourselves with the big teams yet. Not alot of guys I'd say you could out-and-out put on the first line of a very good hockey team, YET.

Mizral 11-25-2003 08:35 PM

I regard the Oilers as deep as some of the best at the forward position, just lacking top end talent. However, the Oilers are PAINFULLY thin at goal & defense.

Just for fun, how would you guys rate the Oilers players on an NHL depth chart? Here's how I'd have it:

1st liners: None
2nd liners: Ales Hemsky, Radek Dvorak, Adam Oates, Mike York, Ryan Smyth (I think York and Smyth can be bonefide 1st liners some nights, and are surely very top end 2nd liners at least. I just don't think they put up the numbers of a 1st liner)
3rd liners: Moreau, Torres, Isbister
4th liners: Pisani (still not 100% sold on him yet), Laraque, Horcoff, Reasoner

#1 Defensemen: None
#2 Defensemen: None
#3 Defensemen: Brewer, Staios, Smith
#4 Defensemen: Semenov
#5/6 Defensemen: Cross, Bergeron,

AHL'ers/Press Box: Stoll, Ferguson, Chimera (still..), Sarno, Salmo

Something like that. I'm comparing them to where I'd rank them versus other guys in the league. Some of 'em are pretty close (Staios, Brewer, Smyth, and York can all be better depending on the game).

How would you guys have it?

LoudmouthHemskyfan#1 11-25-2003 08:39 PM

Don't agree with me Miz, even partially, you'll wreck my credibility! :joker:

thome_26 11-25-2003 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizral
I regard the Oilers as deep as some of the best at the forward position, just lacking top end talent. However, the Oilers are PAINFULLY thin at goal & defense.

Just for fun, how would you guys rate the Oilers players on an NHL depth chart? Here's how I'd have it:

1st liners: None
2nd liners: Ales Hemsky, Radek Dvorak, Adam Oates, Mike York, Ryan Smyth (I think York and Smyth can be bonefide 1st liners some nights, and are surely very top end 2nd liners at least. I just don't think they put up the numbers of a 1st liner)
3rd liners: Moreau, Torres, Isbister
4th liners: Pisani (still not 100% sold on him yet), Laraque, Horcoff, Reasoner

#1 Defensemen: None
#2 Defensemen: None
#3 Defensemen: Brewer, Staios, Smith
#4 Defensemen: Semenov
#5/6 Defensemen: Cross, Bergeron,

AHL'ers/Press Box: Stoll, Ferguson, Chimera (still..), Sarno, Salmo

Something like that. I'm comparing them to where I'd rank them versus other guys in the league. Some of 'em are pretty close (Staios, Brewer, Smyth, and York can all be better depending on the game).

How would you guys have it?

The more I listen to you the more I begin to think you dont' watch the Oilers much. Reasoner? A fourth liner? He's MUCH more then a third liner! The kid is one of the better defensive forwards - he's alot younger then most who do his job, an his offense is improving steadily. To call him anything less then a thirdliner at the moment is SOOO far off that it hurts. Stoll? Press box/AHL??? The kid has played GREAT! He's got like 3 goals in 9 bloody games!!!!! He's mature beyond his years, he's a great leader, and he is a plus defensivly, on the PK, and in the circle!!! WAY WAY off on him. Smyth is not a second line player. He has proved that he is a valuable first line player. The simple fact is that he hasn't played with the type of players he thrives with - set up men type. Smyth is a first liner on 90% of NHL teams.

woody 11-25-2003 09:02 PM

Mizral, I do not agree with your whole posted but you are right about the Oilers defense. We have no 1 or 2 in the whole system which includes current players and our best d-prospects will top out as 4th. We need to improve in this area big time.

OilerMania83 11-25-2003 09:07 PM

1st liners: Ryan Smyth
2nd liners: Ales Hemsky (Will be a 1st liner), Radek Dvorak, Adam Oates, Mike York,
3rd liners: Moreau, Torres(Can be second or better(, Isbister (Can be second or better), Pisani, Reasoner
4th liners: Laraque, Horcoff, Stoll (3rd or better eventually), Salmelainen

#1 Defensemen: None
#2 Defensemen: Brewer (Could be #1 someday...),
#3 Defensemen: Staios, Smith
#4 Defensemen: Semenov (Can be a 3+)
#5/6 Defensemen: Bergeron, Cross

AHL'ers/Press Box: Ferguson (SUCKS), Chimera, Sarno,

elphy101 11-25-2003 09:15 PM

Here's how I'd have it:

Bonafide 1st liners: None
Marginal 1st liners: Mike York, Ryan Smyth, Mike Comrie(right now that's what he is and the Oilers have his rights)
2nd liners: Ales Hemsky, Radek Dvorak, Adam Oates, Raffi Torres
3rd liners: Moreau, Isbister, Reasoner(a top notch 3rd liner), Stoll
4th liners: Pisani, Laraque, Horcoff, Salmo, Chimera, Rita

#1 Defensemen: None
#2 Defensemen: Brewer (minus his horrific start this season)
#3 Defensemen: Staios, Smith,Cross
#4 Defensemen: Bergeron, Semenov
#5/6 Defensemen: None

AHL'ers/Press Box: Ferguson, Sarno,


Just as a comment to Mizral. I agree with you that Edmonton lacks the top end talent. However I think you severely underate the Oilers bottom end talent. The Oilers have 3-4 players in the pressbox or on the farm that would be playing for most teams in the NHL including the Canucks.

On a side note, I think the some of the top end talent is coming for the Oilers, it just needs time to develop.

Hemsky will be a star in this league if not a superstar.
Brewer and Semenov both have the potential and have shown glimpses of them both becoming top notch defensemen in this league.

This does not even take into account the prospects that the Oilers have drafted recently. Right now their organization ranking is 7th in the NHL. You would have to believe that at least one top 6 forward will come from their drafts as well.

The Rage 11-25-2003 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizral
I regard the Oilers as deep as some of the best at the forward position, just lacking top end talent. However, the Oilers are PAINFULLY thin at goal & defense.

Just for fun, how would you guys rate the Oilers players on an NHL depth chart? Here's how I'd have it:

1st liners: None
2nd liners: Ales Hemsky, Radek Dvorak, Adam Oates, Mike York, Ryan Smyth (I think York and Smyth can be bonefide 1st liners some nights, and are surely very top end 2nd liners at least. I just don't think they put up the numbers of a 1st liner)
3rd liners: Moreau, Torres, Isbister
4th liners: Pisani (still not 100% sold on him yet), Laraque, Horcoff, Reasoner

#1 Defensemen: None
#2 Defensemen: None
#3 Defensemen: Brewer, Staios, Smith
#4 Defensemen: Semenov
#5/6 Defensemen: Cross, Bergeron,

AHL'ers/Press Box: Stoll, Ferguson, Chimera (still..), Sarno, Salmo

Something like that. I'm comparing them to where I'd rank them versus other guys in the league. Some of 'em are pretty close (Staios, Brewer, Smyth, and York can all be better depending on the game).

How would you guys have it?

Reasoner and Pisani have been two thirds of one of the top 10 third lines in the league. That line has perhaps been our consistenly best line since they were put together. How can you have them both as fourth liners?

I'm surprised that you put Smyth as a second liner. I think he's one of the top 30 left wingers in the league quite easily (which should make him a first liner). If I'm not mistaken, there aren't nearly as many good left wingers as centremen or right wingers. I think Smtyh might even be a top ten left winger. I guess you could argue that Smyth should be considered a centre, but we all know thats temporary.

HellsBells 11-26-2003 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphy101
Here's how I'd have it:

Bonafide 1st liners: None
Marginal 1st liners: Mike York, Ryan Smyth, Mike Comrie(right now that's what he is and the Oilers have his rights)
2nd liners: Ales Hemsky, Radek Dvorak, Adam Oates, Raffi Torres
3rd liners: Moreau, Isbister, Reasoner(a top notch 3rd liner), Stoll
4th liners: Pisani, Laraque, Horcoff, Salmo, Chimera, Rita

#1 Defensemen: None
#2 Defensemen: Brewer (minus his horrific start this season)
#3 Defensemen: Staios, Smith,Cross
#4 Defensemen: Bergeron, Semenov
#5/6 Defensemen: None

AHL'ers/Press Box: Ferguson, Sarno,


Just as a comment to Mizral. I agree with you that Edmonton lacks the top end talent. However I think you severely underate the Oilers bottom end talent. The Oilers have 3-4 players in the pressbox or on the farm that would be playing for most teams in the NHL including the Canucks.

On a side note, I think the some of the top end talent is coming for the Oilers, it just needs time to develop.

Hemsky will be a star in this league if not a superstar.
Brewer and Semenov both have the potential and have shown glimpses of them both becoming top notch defensemen in this league.

This does not even take into account the prospects that the Oilers have drafted recently. Right now their organization ranking is 7th in the NHL. You would have to believe that at least one top 6 forward will come from their drafts as well.

Take off the homer glasses !! You seriously think that the Oilers have 3 or 4 players in the pressbox/minors that would be playing for the Canucks. Yeah right. They wouldn't even crack the Flames lineup. Sarno, Salmalainen, Stoll, Pisani, Chimera....these guys would not make the Canucks or the Flames. You really are the true defenition of a homer.

Mr Sakich 11-26-2003 07:18 AM

according to espn.com, 51 points puts you in the top 90 for scroing forwards. Since the role of a first line player is to score, it is probably the best measure of who could be a legit # 1 line player. As it stands right now, oates, York, smyth, and Comrie are all easily first line players.

We expect scoring out of our second line so it is probably a good measure as well. The diving line is to be above 35 points. Izzy, devo, hemsky, torres, and hemsky look to easily get 35 points this year. Ethan and reasoner could also challenge.

According to the best measure possible, we have 4 first line players and 5-7 second line players. Is this a surprise? No. Last year we had 7 guys with more than 30 points and only one playoff team ( ott) had more. We are also younger and improving so I fully expect to have the most 30 + scorers of any playoff team this year.

dawgbone 11-26-2003 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garfield
Take off the homer glasses !! You seriously think that the Oilers have 3 or 4 players in the pressbox/minors that would be playing for the Canucks. Yeah right. They wouldn't even crack the Flames lineup. Sarno, Salmalainen, Stoll, Pisani, Chimera....these guys would not make the Canucks or the Flames. You really are the true defenition of a homer.

Really... hmmm... because their stats and +/- say otherwise... for example:

Fernando Pisani - 21 GP 3 G 6 A +7 (13:17 of ice per game)
Jarret Stoll - 9 GP 4 G 2 A +5 (11:48 of ice per game)

which is better than everyone on the flames forwards except for Iginla, Reinprecht, Lombardi.

Chimera - 21 GP 2 G 2 A -1 (10:37 of ice per game)

which is still better than Clark, Conroy, Saprykin, Donovan, Betts, Oliwa, Lowry...

You may have an argument with Sarno and Salmo, but you sure as heck don't have one with the other 3.

Oilers1* 11-26-2003 07:36 AM

Mizral saying that Smyth isn't a first-liner is the most damning comment on the Canucks I have heard yet. . .after all, how far can you expect to go in the playoffs with a second-line center (Morrison) playing first-line, and a third-line center (Sedin) playing second-line?

USC Trojans 11-26-2003 08:02 AM

Here's how I see it:

Ryan Smyth - 1
Radek Dvorak - 1/2
Ales Hemsky - 1/2
Mike York - 1/2
Adam Oates - 2
Mike Comrie - 2
Raffi Torres - 2/3
Marty Reasoner - 3
Ethan Moreau - 3
Fernando Pisani - 3
Brad Isbister - 3/4
Jarret Stoll - 3/4
Shawn Horcoff - 4
Georges Laraque - 4
Tony Salmelainen - 4
Peter Sarno - 4
Jason Chimera - 4

Eric Brewer - 2/3
Jason Smith - 3
Steve Staios - 3
Cory Cross - 4
MA Bergeron - 5
Alexei Semenov - 5
Turd Ferguson - 6/7

Mizral 11-26-2003 08:18 AM

If you read down my post, you would have noticed that I would have Smyth & York stradling the 1st/2nd line area. Both can be 1st liners some nights, 2nd liners other nights. The only reason I put them at 2nd liners is because the point totals seem to reflect 2nd liners more than 1st.

Maybe I underrate Reasoner. I just don't like him ;)

As for Stoll, 9 games in and you're saying he's an NHL player? I don't see any of you putting Jani Rita in as a 4th liner, when he's played and scored more at the NHL level than Stoll. You've gotta play more than 9 NHL games to be considered a 4th line regular in the NHL, that is, unless you're lighting the lamp at a ridiculous rate.

Elphy, I think I agreed with most of your post but.. think you bite too fast on Torres though. Do you think King is a bonefide 2nd liner? I certainly don't, same goes for Torres. You gotta proove that kind of thing over a long period of time, which is the main basis for me putting Stoll, Salmo, Rita, etc.. off the main depth chart. These guys could very easily fall into long pointless streaks and get thrown into the AHL full time if they aren't already there. They are still very young, and to say they are bonefide NHL'ers is just plain wrong in my opinion. Not saying they won't be down the road, but I don't think they are yet.

I think you overrate Cross to ridiculous lengths though. Cross a #3 defenseman? On which team?

HellsBells 11-26-2003 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawgbone
Really... hmmm... because their stats and +/- say otherwise... for example:

Fernando Pisani - 21 GP 3 G 6 A +7 (13:17 of ice per game)
Jarret Stoll - 9 GP 4 G 2 A +5 (11:48 of ice per game)

which is better than everyone on the flames forwards except for Iginla, Reinprecht, Lombardi.

Chimera - 21 GP 2 G 2 A -1 (10:37 of ice per game)

which is still better than Clark, Conroy, Saprykin, Donovan, Betts, Oliwa, Lowry...

You may have an argument with Sarno and Salmo, but you sure as heck don't have one with the other 3.


You can't be serious. You are saying that Chimera is better than Conroy, Gelinas, Saprykin, Clark, Donovan etc.... based on 2G and 2A. HA HA HA HA HA HA !!! That's a good one. So by your logic, McLennan is a better goalie than Joseph, Hasek, Cloutier, Turco, Nabokov, Burke, Giguere, Cechmanek etc.... You said it, not me.

The reason the Oilers forwards have better numbers is because they score more goals, that does not make them better. The Flames play a very good defensive game (much much better than the Oilers, hence the Oilers 4 goals in 3 + games vs. Flames) therefore they do not score as many goals. The Flames have more experience than the Oilers. I'm not saying they suck, I'm just saying that they would not crack the Flames lineup because they have more veterans. Chimera is just plain brutal and I can't believe you think he is better than any forward on the Flames, let alone Conroy, Saprykin & Gelinas. I would take Oliwa in a heartbeat over Chimera.

You can't compare goals & assists when you are talking about two totally different teams. Oilers fans get so worked up. And I'm not even going to bother with the Vancouver comparison as anyone can see that is flat out non-sense as the Canucks are twice as deep as the Oilers.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:50 AM.

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com, A property of CraveOnline, a division of AtomicOnline LLC ©2009 CraveOnline Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved.