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-   -   5 reasons why we should offer Souray around (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=321144)

Catch-22 12-12-2006 04:42 PM

5 reasons why we should offer Souray around
 
1) Souray has outperformed himself to this point, meaning he has done better up until now than he will do for the rest of the season. He's not going to score 25-30 goals, so his value is higher now than it will probably ever be again.

2) The Habs need to improve their mobility on defense. Souray is an offensive contributor but he is slow and not very good defensively; a -8.

3) Souray is injury prone. He will inevitably miss some time this season. He might even miss tonight's game due to injury. So again, he may be worth more now than at any time again.

4) While we do need the offense that Souray brings, it would be better if that offense came from a more productive centre and if our defense was more sound in its own end.

5) Souray becomes a UFA at the end of this season. While this does hurt his trade value, there remains the real possibility that he wants to be closer to his daughter in CA. If there is any truth to that, we better trade him soon because (a) we don't want to lose hom for nothing and (b) he is worth more now with 50 games left than he is with 30 games left in the season. A trade at the deadline is the only exception, but that would be a gamble because you would have to bank that on his production remaining consistent until then and on his health. You'd also have to hope that the ideal centre is available at that time and you would miss your opportunity if that player were to become available before the deadline.



Anyway, at the very least I think we should shop him around. I am not saying we should have a fire sale and trade him at all costs. But if Souray can help net us a centre who right now would be more effective offensively than Pleks, then IMO Souray is worth trading. We wouldn;t lose much on defense and could gain a lot of potency up front. If we could get the right guy, the effects might even be compounded as that might even elevate the play of some of the other players who aren;t producing up to their potential.



SO what are the possibilities? What teams need souray, a goaltender and might spare a centre that we want? Ideally on the west coast?


I have said this before, some disagree. Phoenix needs offense and goaltending (Joseph's save % is in the .88+ range).

To Phoenix: Souray, Samsonov and Aebischer.
To Montreal: Mike Comrie and Keith Ballard.


The downside is that Phoenix would be giving up a centre and would probably want one back. Would we be willing to give up Bonk, who is a UFA at the end of the season, instead of Samsonov? That's a little more gutwrenching. The other problem is that none of the Phoenix defenseman other than Jovo is really a sure upgrade over Souray in the defensive end. Ballard and Morris are both criticized for their defensive inadequacies and same thing for Michalek.

White Snake* 12-12-2006 04:46 PM

The is the worst trade offer I have seen all year for the Habs. R U reeally z habs fan??? Mike COmrie and Keith Ballard? Are you freakin kiddin me? I cant stand fans that constantly undervalue our players. Those two players you mentioned would be sitting ducks in Montreal within 30 days of their arrival. They would make Ribs and Ninimaa look like suprestars.

White Snake* 12-12-2006 04:47 PM

How about this:

Chris Higgins
Saku Koivu
SHeldon SOuray
ANdrei Markov

for

Keith BAllard
5th round pick in 08:banghead:

Bunka Gurndeep 12-12-2006 04:49 PM

While I do agree that he should be shopped around, that offer is dumb :help:

White Snake* 12-12-2006 04:49 PM

But then agin Im sure Phoenix would want to hold on to Ballard so:

Koivu
Higgins
Abby
Markov

for
3rd round pick in 09

hockey_nut 12-12-2006 04:49 PM

thankfully you're not our GM

Blind Gardien 12-12-2006 04:55 PM

I think Souray's defensive contributions are consistently underrated. He may not "excel" at that game, but he generally holds his own and gets consistent PK time. He has his deficiencies to be sure, but he's no Brisebois. But anyway, even assuming for the point of some absurd argument that he was actually an outright liability on defense, I still don't see why on earth we'd trade him: we're 16-8 and in 4th in the conference? If we can manage that with Souray as a defensive liability - and have the PK and team defense records that we do (with Souray playing well in excess of 20 minutes a night) - well that's pretty awesome, IMO. I wonder how we would improve that?

By contrast, what would our record be without Souray's offensive contributions? I'd peg it around .500 at best. He has been that important to our offense. Sooooo... whoever you get for him has to really have a huge individual impact. Mike Comrie sure as hell won't. In fact, nobody who you're realistically going to be able to get for an impending-UFA will. Hence, there is absolutely zero reason to trade Souray. Or to quietly shop him even. It's ludicrous. Insane even.

And that says nothing about the impact to team chemistry and morale that would be felt from a Souray trade.

Did I mention that trading Souray... or even entertaining the thought of it... would be insane? INSANE! It would be. C'mon. You know it.
;)

(And of course, Phoenix hardly seems like a team worth mentioning in any hypothetical Souray sweepstakes either, even if you are insane enough to make such a hypothesis. Certainly not with a name like Ballard involved.)

Catch-22 12-12-2006 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Snake (Post 7334786)
The is the worst trade offer I have seen all year for the Habs. R U reeally z habs fan??? Mike COmrie and Keith Ballard? Are you freakin kiddin me? I cant stand fans that constantly undervalue our players. Those two players you mentioned would be sitting ducks in Montreal within 30 days of their arrival. They would make Ribs and Ninimaa look like suprestars.


With all due respect,


1) Souray is a UFA and that hurts his trade value.

2) Samsonov isn't worth a ton at $3,5 million.

3) Aebischer is an average goaltender.


That's why I don't think we can get much for them. And I like Comrie. So what's your suggestion?

And do you think we should shop Souray around?

Catch-22 12-12-2006 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blind Gardien (Post 7334886)
I think Souray's defensive contributions are consistently underrated. He may not "excel" at that game, but he generally holds his own and gets consistent PK time. He has his deficiencies to be sure, but he's no Brisebois. But anyway, even assuming for the point of some absurd argument that he was actually an outright liability on defense, I still don't see why on earth we'd trade him: we're 16-8 and in 4th in the conference? If we can manage that with Souray as a defensive liability - and have the PK and team defense records that we do (with Souray playing well in excess of 20 minutes a night) - well that's pretty awesome, IMO. I wonder how we would improve that?

By contrast, what would our record be without Souray's offensive contributions? I'd peg it around .500 at best. He has been that important to our offense. Sooooo... whoever you get for him has to really have a huge individual impact. Mike Comrie sure as hell won't. In fact, nobody who you're realistically going to be able to get for an impending-UFA will. Hence, there is absolutely zero reason to trade Souray. Or to quietly shop him even. It's ludicrous. Insane even.

And that says nothing about the impact to team chemistry and morale that would be felt from a Souray trade.

Did I mention that trading Souray... or even entertaining the thought of it... would be insane? INSANE! It would be. C'mon. You know it.
;)

(And of course, Phoenix hardly seems like a team worth mentioning in any hypothetical Souray sweepstakes either, even if you are insane enough to make such a hypothesis. Certainly not with a name like Ballard involved.)


My problem with your post is that you are not considering the possibility that we lose Souray for nothing at the end of the season as a UFA. Truthfully, without that reason, it just might be insane. Assume for one second that he does want to be closer to his daughter and he may choose not to sign here. Then what?

Little Nilan 12-12-2006 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catch-22 (Post 7334925)
My problem with your post is that you are not considering the possibility that we lose Souray for nothing at the end of the season as a UFA. Truthfully, without that reason, it just might be insane. Assume for one second that he does want to be closer to his daughter and he may choose not to sign here. Then what?

Who cares if the Habs lose him at the end of the season? Do you want this team to be constantly rebuilding or to make noise in the playoffs? With the new salary structure, players will be leaving through free agency like never before. Trading Souray makes no sense unless you admit you don't care about winning.

Mike8 12-12-2006 05:05 PM

I think you're right in that Souray's market value is good right now. I agree that Souray has his limitations. I disagree with the common sentiment that he's a liability in his own zone. He had a rough start to the year, and he plays more minutes than he should even-strength, but I think he's decent in the defensive zone with some strengths that every team needs (an intimidating force that can keep the opposition to the perimeter; long reach, crease-clearer).

I wouldn't avoid talks of dealing Souray. I would be for dealing him if the right proposal came along. But I'd only deal Souray if I felt I could get a player that could contribute right now, and be a core player now or in the near future.

In your proposed deal, I don't think much of Comrie, but Ballard would be a very nice addition. I don't see Phoenix making that deal, though.

One deal that would be of interest (if it was viable) is a deal surrounding Souray and Stoll.

AH 12-12-2006 05:07 PM

Then What?

Nothing. He walks as a UFA and life goes on in a salary cap world.

Catch-22 12-12-2006 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaded and Agrestic (Post 7334976)
Who cares if the Habs lose him at the end of the season? Do you want this team to be constantly rebuilding or to make noise in the playoffs? With the new salary structure, players will be leaving through free agency like never before. Trading Souray makes no sense unless you admit you don't care about winning.


I am proposing this trade because I'm sick of being eliminated in the first and second round. Last year our forwards had trouble beating Ward and that's really the only reason we lost to Carolina. To get past the first and second round, we will need better offensive production from our forwards. That's the catalyst here.

Little Nilan 12-12-2006 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catch-22 (Post 7335044)
I am proposing this trade because I'm sick of being eliminated in the first and second round. Last year our forwards had trouble beating Ward and that's really the only reason we lost to Carolina. To get past the first and second round, we will need better offensive production from our forwards. That's the catalyst here.

Souray also brings offense from the backend and on the PP that you'd lose. Mike8 makes a good point with Stoll, he could potentially bring the PP production as well as fill in a real need, both now, and in the future. I don't see Comrie(isn't he a UFA as well) and Ballard being more valuable then Souray to the team, especially looking at this year and the next.

habsprospects 12-12-2006 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catch-22 (Post 7334736)
To Phoenix: Souray, Samsonov and Aebischer.
To Montreal: Mike Comrie and Keith Ballard.

the reason why you should **** and not post thread like this...

Catch-22 12-12-2006 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike8 (Post 7334980)
I think you're right in that Souray's market value is good right now. I agree that Souray has his limitations. I disagree with the common sentiment that he's a liability in his own zone. He had a rough start to the year, and he plays more minutes than he should even-strength, but I think he's decent in the defensive zone with some strengths that every team needs (an intimidating force that can keep the opposition to the perimeter; long reach, crease-clearer).

I wouldn't avoid talks of dealing Souray. I would be for dealing him if the right proposal came along. But I'd only deal Souray if I felt I could get a player that could contribute right now, and be a core player now or in the near future.

In your proposed deal, I don't think much of Comrie, but Ballard would be a very nice addition. I don't see Phoenix making that deal, though.

One deal that would be of interest (if it was viable) is a deal surrounding Souray and Stoll.


That would definitely be of interest. While I agree that it is unlikely Phoenix would do the deal I just mentioned, do you think Edmonton would want to get rid of Stoll and risk losing Souray at the end of the season themselves?

Azalichio 12-12-2006 05:23 PM

Let's see...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catch-22 (Post 7334736)
1) Souray has outperformed himself to this point, meaning he has done better up until now than he will do for the rest of the season. He's not going to score 25-30 goals, so his value is higher now than it will probably ever be again.

What if Souray has simply reached his capacity as an offensive defensemen? The guy really found his groove when he was traded to the habs and finally had the surgery he needed. Before the lock out he was on fire for the first half then it died down a little, everyone said it was just luck. Second season ( after the lock-out ) it's the opposite, little offense in the first half, all out in the second ( enough to end with more points then his "come out season" ) The guy is not outperforming himself, he's simply finally reaching his potential ( like most defense, around 30 years old ). You have no idea what he will do for the rest of the season, he might stop producing, or he might actually do even better. Everything is possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catch-22 (Post 7334736)
2) The Habs need to improve their mobility on defense. Souray is an offensive contributor but he is slow and not very good defensively; a -8.

His lateral speed is not that great, his forward speed however is pretty damn good. Defensively he's better then most makes him out to be. Habs mobility on defense is hardly a problem either ( with Dandenault, Bouillon, Markov, Komisarek who has vastly improved, Streit, Niinima.. )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catch-22 (Post 7334736)
3) Souray is injury prone. He will inevitably miss some time this season. He might even miss tonight's game due to injury. So again, he may be worth more now than at any time again.

Koivu is injury prone, trade the sucker right now. I don't know if the guy was playing 20 games a year then sure, what's the point in keeping him but Souray isn't like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catch-22 (Post 7334736)
4) While we do need the offense that Souray brings, it would be better if that offense came from a more productive centre and if our defense was more sound in its own end.

I don't buy that, at all. Personally I'd rather have the best of both world, especially considering that later in the season, there will be a few center available for rental ( which mean, cheap ).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catch-22 (Post 7334736)
5) Souray becomes a UFA at the end of this season. While this does hurt his trade value, there remains the real possibility that he wants to be closer to his daughter in CA. If there is any truth to that, we better trade him soon because (a) we don't want to lose hom for nothing and (b) he is worth more now with 50 games left than he is with 30 games left in the season. A trade at the deadline is the only exception, but that would be a gamble because you would have to bank that on his production remaining consistent until then and on his health. You'd also have to hope that the ideal centre is available at that time and you would miss your opportunity if that player were to become available before the deadline.

I'd rather take my chance with him and try to sign him in the offseason ( or during the season if it's a possibility ) then to trade him for nothing right now. By trading him now, you'll only get a players who is having problems or a bunch of prospect. The habs do not need any of those.

Catch-22 12-12-2006 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaded and Agrestic (Post 7335087)
Souray also brings offense from the backend and on the PP that you'd lose. Mike8 makes a good point with Stoll, he could potentially bring the PP production as well as fill in a real need, both now, and in the future. I don't see Comrie(isn't he a UFA as well) and Ballard being more valuable then Souray to the team, especially looking at this year and the next.

Comrie is a UFA at the end of the season only if he is not signed by the team that owns his rights, of course. But the problem with Souray being a UFA that is not a problem with Comrie is that Souray has distinctly raised the possibility of wanting to leave. He is a bigger risk than Comrie, IMO.

Psycho Papa Joe 12-12-2006 05:29 PM

Off topic, but when we got Souray I expected him to be a physical stay at home type d-man like Rick Green or Craig Ludwig. That he is now known as a defensive liability and an offensive d-man is a shocker. Man do I know how to peg them:biglaugh:

Mad Habber 12-12-2006 05:29 PM

We lose him for nothing at the end of the season.

Welcome to the new NHL economics. Most teams heading to the playoffs will lose someone at the end of the season. The Leafs could of lost Kaberle and McCabe but managed to resign them (and they didn't even make the playoffs). The Stars lost Arnott. The Habs lost Bulis. And there were others.

Some players, you replace from within. Some you replace by acquiring a UFA (not everyone will be getting 5-6 millions.

The point of it all is to build towards a Stanley Cup winner. How do you know if you have a Stanley Cup winner on your hands at the trade deadline. If it looks like you will be in the playoffs, you have as good a chance as any.

How do you justify to your fans that you are getting rid of these important pieces of your team, just for a roll of the dice. Anyone acquired in exchange would be just that. There is no guarantee that the newly acquired players will mesh. Do we not remember how much difficulty Kovalev had in finding his spot in the lineup when he first arrived. Samsonov still hasn't done it. These are quality players. We just didn't get immediate quality results.

Souray for all the defensive lapses that fans attribute to him is still the first guy sent out in crucial situations with Rivet. He is a very important part of both the PP and the PK which are both top 5 in the league. He is one of the most important pieces to this team. And this is disreguarding the toughness and leadership he brings. BTW, I don't see the need for the Coyotes to acquire him with Jovo essentially having the same roll.

Last season, BG said he wasn't going to make big changes at the trade deadline, stating he wanted to go in with the guys who got them there. He acquired Simpson for a little added depth (7-8 D) and rid us of the Theodore problem - getting in exchange an insurance policy for the backup role.

I would rather he walk at the end of the season, while I say that we tried to win the ultimate goal.

Armond White 12-12-2006 05:29 PM

If anything that proposal is bad for Phoenix. Ballard is their top defenseman right now - young, cheap, and good. I don't see them giving him up for a soon-to-be-UFA that wouldn't re-sign in Phoenix, a forward who has done nothing all year, and Aebischer.

Catch-22 12-12-2006 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azalichio (Post 7335166)
Let's see...



What if Souray has simply reached his capacity as an offensive defensemen? The guy really found his groove when he was traded to the habs and finally had the surgery he needed. Before the lock out he was on fire for the first half then it died down a little, everyone said it was just luck. Second season ( after the lock-out ) it's the opposite, little offense in the first half, all out in the second ( enough to end with more points then his "come out season" ) The guy is not outperforming himself, he's simply finally reaching his potential ( like most defense, around 30 years old ). You have no idea what he will do for the rest of the season, he might stop producing, or he might actually do even better. Everything is possible.



His lateral speed is not that great, his forward speed however is pretty damn good. Defensively he's better then most makes him out to be. Habs mobility on defense is hardly a problem either ( with Dandenault, Bouillon, Markov, Komisarek who has vastly improved, Streit, Niinima.. )



Koivu is injury prone, trade the sucker right now. I don't know if the guy was playing 20 games a year then sure, what's the point in keeping him but Souray isn't like that.



I don't buy that, at all. Personally I'd rather have the best of both world, especially considering that later in the season, there will be a few center available for rental ( which mean, cheap ).



I'd rather take my chance with him and try to sign him in the offseason ( or during the season if it's a possibility ) then to trade him for nothing right now. By trading him now, you'll only get a players who is having problems or a bunch of prospect. The habs do not need any of those.


The only thing I ask is that you read the post carefully before replying. I never said trade him now for sure. I intentionally didn;t say that. I just said we should consider offering him around.

Azalichio 12-12-2006 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catch-22 (Post 7335236)
The only thing I ask is that you read the post carefully before replying. I never said trade him now for sure. I intentionally didn;t say that. I just said we should consider offering him around.

So we are playing with words now? You make a list of why to "offer" him to other team. I tell you why I don't think your reasons are good enough to "offer" him to other teams.

Happy?

loadie 12-12-2006 05:35 PM

I don't understand how trading possibly the best PP Dman in the league gets us closer to the cup. Mike Comrie won't make us have any more noise in the playoffs...none. Keith Ballard is very interesting, but again, will he help us make more noise in the playoffs? Unlikely. Yes, the possibility of losing Souray for nothing will suck in the summer, but having him now, is what we need. Badly.

Catch-22 12-12-2006 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azalichio (Post 7335256)
So we are playing with words now? You make a list of why to "offer" him to other team. I tell you why I don't think your reasons are good enough to "offer" him to other teams.

Happy?

Playing with words? No I just think you have to read the post more carefully since your responses are refuting the "trade him at all costs" philosophy. here's one way to tell that this is what you are refuting:

Quote:

Koivu is injury prone, trade the sucker right now. I don't know if the guy was playing 20 games a year then sure, what's the point in keeping him but Souray isn't like that.

While I disagree with you on letting him walk for nothing, you can disagree. I just ask that you respond to the actual point.


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