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-   -   How much does goalie equipment actually "protect" the GOALIE? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=32641)

Heat McManus 12-01-2003 10:14 PM

How much does goalie equipment actually "protect" the GOALIE?
 
I know there are certain hot spots that are prone to getting hit (the gap between the top of the pads and bottom of the pants when a goalie goes down) but how much is present day goalie equipment protecting the goalie and how much of it is protecting the net? I feel in this day and age there must be ways to reduce the size of goalie equipment while maintaining their safety and the integrity of the game.
There is an arguement that the 1-piece comp sticks have turned every shooter into Bobby Hull so goalies should be able to compensate, but i don't buy that too easily. Any thoughts?

BCCHL inactive 12-02-2003 01:42 AM

Over the last 20 years, players have gotten bigger, stronger and the sticks these bigger players use are much better than what was used back in "the day". Pucks are fired much harder on average than they were then. And yes, those new one-piece graphite sticks do add velocity to your shot.

There are some goaltenders who take the equipment way too far (Garth Snow for one), but most goaltenders have simply gone along with the times.

And it is not just the equipment either. Goaltenders have simply gotten better over the last 20 years. Patrick Roy created a revolution of goaltenders with his butterfly style. No longer do we see the easy goals go in that we did in the 80's because there are simply no stand-up goaltenders left to let in those easy goals. Seriously...watch tapes from 15-20 years ago...a lot of the goals let in during those days would have fans wanting their goaltenders murdered in today's game.


Oh, by the way, I hear lots of people complaining about Giguere's chest protector.... It is just thicker than what a lot of goaltenders use. It isn't wider, so it isn't covering more of the net. So why complain about it?

Le Golie 12-02-2003 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van
Oh, by the way, I hear lots of people complaining about Giguere's chest protector.... It is just thicker than what a lot of goaltenders use. It isn't wider, so it isn't covering more of the net. So why complain about it?

Thicker? Where did you get this info? It makes no sense to me to have thicker equipment, the quality of the upper body gear made today doesn't require anything to be thicker, especially considering the affect that would have on mobility.

Also, thicker upper body gear would not be visable, so obviously people are more upset with the wide shoulders than the thick armour.

I'm a Giguere fan and I see no problem at all with what he wears, however I'm not sure what's up with this 'thicker' theory. People pick on Giggy because his positional play is second to none and he gets his upper body in front of more shots than any goaltender that came along before him. Reducing the size of his gear won't change that, a very high percentage of the shots he takes to the upper body hit him in the logo anyway.

ALSO, to comment on the size reduction issue, Garth Snow is a very big guy. He conformed to the rule changes made this off season and doesn't look a whole lot different at all. I honestly believe that the technique and size of goaltenders today is so far ahead of where they were 20 years ago that changing the size of their gear won't have a big affect on goal scoring.

Steve L* 12-02-2003 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don_Cherry
I'm a Giguere fan and I see no problem at all with what he wears, however I'm not sure what's up with this 'thicker' theory. People pick on Giggy because his positional play is second to none and he gets his upper body in front of more shots than any goaltender that came along before him. Reducing the size of his gear won't change that, a very high percentage of the shots he takes to the upper body hit him in the logo anyway.

There was a photo of him standing next to Brodeur, his chest pad was stupidly large, it wasnt for protection, it was to stop the puck, if that was reduced, more shots would go in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don_Cherry
ALSO, to comment on the size reduction issue, Garth Snow is a very big guy. He conformed to the rule changes made this off season and doesn't look a whole lot different at all.

Snow has had 4 inches chopped off his pads, those 4 inches closed the 5 hole in the butterfly.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don_Cherry
I honestly believe that the technique and size of goaltenders today is so far ahead of where they were 20 years ago that changing the size of their gear won't have a big affect on goal scoring.

You don think a reduction will increase scoring but Gretzky said he thinks that is the only thing that will increase scoring in the NHL.

Egil 12-02-2003 03:50 AM

Gigueres "thing" is getting his chest protector to come further up when he goes down into the butterfly. It is almost as bad as Garth Snow's shoulder pads, but you can't see them when he his standing, only int he Butterfly (but it is in the butterfly where that extra couple inches over the shoulder REALLY make a difference.

RedK 12-02-2003 05:26 AM

Broduer wears a chest protector that is several years old. The foam and quilting is compressed and very thin from use.

I suspect Giguere's chest protector rides up because of how he wears it. Some goalies tuck their chest protectors into their pants and belt them down. Others wear them outside of their pants and keep them loose. If you wear your chest protector outside of your pants, when you butterfly, it may get pushed up by your pants. His gear is legal, it just behaves differently because of how he wears it.

Snow conformed to the pad length regulations, but found a loophole. He's been adding foam to the laces of his skates to push his pads higher.

As for protection vs. size, every piece protects. Some also serve to stop the puck. Elbow and shoulder floaters are probably the pieces most oversized vs the amount of protection they offer.

mmbt 12-02-2003 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van
And it is not just the equipment either. Goaltenders have simply gotten better over the last 20 years. Patrick Roy created a revolution of goaltenders with his butterfly style. No longer do we see the easy goals go in that we did in the 80's because there are simply no stand-up goaltenders left to let in those easy goals. Seriously...watch tapes from 15-20 years ago...a lot of the goals let in during those days would have fans wanting their goaltenders murdered in today's game.

I think the standup style went away less because of Roy, and more because of improvements in masks. Standing up used to be a matter of self-preservation, but modern masks have removed the fear factor of going down to take away the bottom half of the net.

It's no surprise, though, that Roy liked to wear big equipment, too. It's one of Francois Allaire's tenets.

Quote:

Oh, by the way, I hear lots of people complaining about Giguere's chest protector.... It is just thicker than what a lot of goaltenders use. It isn't wider, so it isn't covering more of the net. So why complain about it?
Admittedly, his shoulder pads do ride a little high. OTOH, how many times do you see a shot just nick his shoulders? Rarely. Top corner is the toughest shot to make. Besides which, his chest protector, like his leg pads, are smaller than the maximum allowed. One other thing to note, Giguere has that hunched-over stance like Esposito, so a lot of the time those shoulder pads are actually directly facing the shooter, as opposed to riding up vertically.

Seems to me there should be a lot more complaints about the ridiculously oversized catching gloves around the league. Those cover as much or more extra space than Giguere's shoulder pads, and they're MOBILE so they can be used to cover areas that are shot at far more frequently than the top corners. Some have gotten so big that the goalie barely has to move his arm to cover the entire range of the glove side. And there's a heck of a lot more goals stopped by big catching gloves than there are stopped by an inch or two of high shoulder pads. I daresay at least 5-10 times more.

Malefic74 12-02-2003 11:18 AM

Stand up goaltenders faded from the NHL because offensive tactics changed with the influx of Europeans into the NHL. With the crisp and effective passing of the Russians and the Swedes and their talent for cross-crease passes many stand up goalies consistently found themselves far out of position.

Standing up and coming out to challenge the shooter was suicide as the shooter would pass around you. Also, standup goalies were especially vulnerable on deflections. Goaltending coaches like Francois Allaire preached the butterfly to cover as much net as possible quickly. It worked. Deflections that used to dribble by were stopped and as goalies stayed back and became adept at the sliding butterfly, passing around them was seldom possible anymore. Or at least, nowhere near as much as before.

The best example of all this is Sean Burke. When Burke came into the league with New Jersey he was the prototype for a stand-up goalie. As the game changed and he didn't, his career waned. After some coaching he changed to a half-butterfly style and rejuvenated his career.

As for the equipment. A lot of it is ridiculous. Protecting the top of the knee from the pant leg accomplishes the protection without covering the 5 hole. Cheaters on gloves are too big now, way too many goalies use their gloves to bat the puck down, not catch it. The pad rule should be attached to the size of the goalie, say 6" above the knee. That way the rule is equally fair to Burke (6'4) and Legace (5'9). Chest protectors should follow the form of the body with nothing sticking out. Areas needing the additional protection of floaters such as the shoulders and forearms would have floaters, but they should NOT stick out past the padding beneath them.

For the record I am a goalie, and it has gone too far. Who to blame? Try Vaughn, Brian's, Heaton, and the other manufacturers. Try finding a glove without a cheater. You can't. They aren't made. Ditto for pads that do not look like blocks of foam.

And if Garth Snow spent as much time studying film and practising technique as he does finding ways to cheat the rule book, he would be a better goalie and wouldn't need any extra foam. Idiot.

txpd 12-02-2003 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeffyuhTJRest
I know there are certain hot spots that are prone to getting hit (the gap between the top of the pads and bottom of the pants when a goalie goes down) but how much is present day goalie equipment protecting the goalie and how much of it is protecting the net? I feel in this day and age there must be ways to reduce the size of goalie equipment while maintaining their safety and the integrity of the game.
There is an arguement that the 1-piece comp sticks have turned every shooter into Bobby Hull so goalies should be able to compensate, but i don't buy that too easily. Any thoughts?

I think there are two sides to this arguement.

1. Chest/Shoulder protectors that Garth Snow and Giggy are much too big and need to be restricted. I couldn't agree with that more.

2. Leg pads are another story. they may be wider than what they were, but I think the complaints are more about their lenth than width.
They are lighter weight now and big is not a problem anymore. What is a problem that can't be fixed is that the goalies are taller than they used to be. 6-3/6-4 goalies are not unusual now. is it right for them the leave the top of their legs explosed in the butterfly because they are tall and the pads are not tall enough?

No one talks about this, but goalie maskes are light years better than they were in the Bobby Hull days. Goalies get hit flush on the coconut now days and are barely phased by it. That means there is no fear about playing goal on their knees as opposed to the old days.

Hockey players are bigger and faster and stronger. They shoot harder.
They are not afraid of crashing the net because the nets come off easy and being in the crease is not an issue anymore.

HockeyNight 12-02-2003 01:24 PM

From what i read in LA times, Giguere has already taken some off from his shoulder pads..

"Giguere has not been red flagged for any violations by league officials.

The only thing the league did was ask our equipment manager to remove a quarter inch from [Giguere's] shoulder pads when they checked them during training camp," Duck General Manager Bryan Murray said. "They did the same thing with a number of goalies."

http://www.latimes.com/sports/hockey...orts-nhl-ducks

NOTE: u need to be a member of LA times to read their article

ehc73 12-02-2003 02:00 PM

I swear, Garth Snow is the Roger Nielson of the goaltending world(not in the awesome coaching sense but in the ridiculous ability to find loopholes sense). Studying game film? Heck yeah, just like Roger. Getting rules made up just to ding the loopholes you found? Heck yeah, just like Roger. He's got oodles of tricks up his sleeve to get around all the rules. Too bad he doesn't put that much energy towards working on his form. Then maybe he wouldn't need all these tricks and loopholes to give him some kind of advantage.

mmbt 12-02-2003 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
It isn't really the fact that it covers that much net, The confidence of the players goes way down doubting they can fit the puck in the net. The guy's gear is way to big, try and tell me he needs all that for protection, look at what Brodeur is useing, 80's style goalie gear.

Except for the catching glove, where Giguere uses one of the smallest in the league. Hey, if the glove is too big, and goalies are making, "great glove saves," all the time, that's far more confidence-draining than not being able to hit the top corner vs. the butterfly, where a typical player won't score more than a couple times a year.

meehan 12-02-2003 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malefic74
Stand up goaltenders faded from the NHL because offensive tactics changed with the influx of Europeans into the NHL. With the crisp and effective passing of the Russians and the Swedes and their talent for cross-crease passes many stand up goalies consistently found themselves far out of position.

I don't know, Hasek did well in the new era of the nhl, he wasn't a butterfly goalie. Brodeur isn't strictly a butterfly goalie either. Then theres Turco and Belfour and Joseph, these guys aren't butterfly goalies and they do well.

Brodeur 12-02-2003 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD
http://www.latimes.com/sports/hockey...orts-nhl-ducks

NOTE: u need to be a member of LA times to read their article

Login: letsgokings
Pass: letsgokings

Malefic74 12-03-2003 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meehan
I don't know, Hasek did well in the new era of the nhl, he wasn't a butterfly goalie. Brodeur isn't strictly a butterfly goalie either. Then theres Turco and Belfour and Joseph, these guys aren't butterfly goalies and they do well.

Hasek doesn't have a style at all. He's no stand-up goalie. Joseph and Belfour are both known to get down on their knees very quickly and the book on both is to beat them high. Brodeur and Turco are rarities as both play a bit of a hybrid style. Outside the circles they usually stand up, in close they butterfly.

The last of the classic 'challenge the shooter, come 3 feet out of the creaase to cut the angle stand-up goaltenders' were Kirk McLean and Sean Burke before he switched to a hybrid style.

mmbt 12-03-2003 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
You must not play hockey.

Oh yes, that wonderful argument, used only by those who are repositories of hockey knowledge.

BTW, you'd be wrong.


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