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-   -   Sean Brown/Bobby Allen (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=33486)

Oi'll say! 12-04-2003 07:49 PM

Sean Brown/Bobby Allen
 
Brown found his way back to the ahl, some say Allen is on his way up (I have my doubts).

Some say Brown took too many stupid penalties here, IMO if the guy laying on the ice learned his lesson and our goalie is happy then the penalty was well worth taking.

Bottom line - the trade is still controversial although not necessarily one of the biggest deals ever made here.

Give it an overall rating based on your own assumption of Brown's & Allen's worth since the time the deal was made to the present, and their future worth as well as any other factors you feel are important.

Patch101 12-04-2003 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oi'll say!
Brown found his way back to the ahl, some say Allen is on his way up (I have my doubts).

Some say Brown took too many stupid penalties here, IMO if the guy laying on the ice learned his lesson and our goalie is happy then the penalty was well worth taking.

Bottom line - the trade is still controversial although not necessarily one of the biggest deals ever made here.

Give it an overall rating based on your own assumption of Brown's & Allen's worth since the time the deal was made to the present, and their future worth as well as any other factors you feel are important.

Brown was awfull .. so .. good for the oil 8)

gretzky2kurri 12-04-2003 08:14 PM

I was very unhappy when it first happened. He appeared to be turning it around.

I heard a rumor he felt he wasn't getting the ice time he deserved. Perhaps overrating himself.

I would have liked to keep him longer. But it's tough because I've seen little of Allen.

Some think he'll never stick in the NHL, others disagree.

Walsher 12-04-2003 09:06 PM

Brown was terrible. Talk about a liability. Most of those penalties came minutes into the game making every game an uphill battle. If this trade is controversial then it sured got past me. This was another one of those insignificant moves that brought in a decenbt prospect and moved along a cast away that should have been cast away much earlier than he was.

woody 12-04-2003 09:08 PM

one journeyman player for another, so whats the difference.

punk_o_holic 12-04-2003 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gretzky2kurri
I was very unhappy when it first happened. He appeared to be turning it around.

I heard a rumor he felt he wasn't getting the ice time he deserved. Perhaps overrating himself.

I would have liked to keep him longer. But it's tough because I've seen little of Allen.

Some think he'll never stick in the NHL, others disagree.

100% agree with you...I remember when I first of the trade. I was at work and i was like who the F is Bobby Allen. Then I said to my friend, are sure that was the trade? Then I continued on at work and was p.o.ed but now I'm undecided. I liked Brown but if Allen can help in hte future then i dont mind

kraigus 12-04-2003 10:10 PM

I gotta go with g2k, although I voted that the deal was insignificant. Really, Brown would likely never have been more than a #5, marginal #4 dman in Edmonton, and the Oil seem to have a gift for picking up guys who fill that role admirably. I liked him in Edmonton though, and I really thought he was starting to get better. He was deserving more ice time the way he was playing before he left, I think, so if he was asking for it then he was justified.

Maybe one of the reasons he's slumped ever since is he gave up? Who knows.

Either way, doesn't matter now - he's gone, Allen's in and playing well in the AHL. Allen may never amount to more than a good AHL dman, but there'd be no room for Brownie on the current roster anyway, unless he far exceeded expectations and became what Matt Greene is supposed to be.

(I wonder though, are those who criticise Brown for taking bad penalties the same ones lamenting the fact that Laraque never runs amok? I haven't bothered to check, and I won't, but if I just described you, well, give your head a shake.)

Oi'll say! 12-04-2003 10:10 PM

2001/02

Niinimaa 81gp, +13
Brewer 81gp, -5
Smith 74gp, +14, 103 pims
Poti 55gp, -6
Staios 73gp, +10, 108 pims
Brown 61gp, +8, 127 pims
Ferguson 50gp, +11, 75 pims

Brown/Smith/Staios/Ferguson 258gp, 413 pims, +43

Team 182 Goals against

Niinimaa/Brewer/Smith/Staios/Ferguson 359 gp


2002/03

Niinimaa 63gp, -7
Brewer 80gp, -11
Staios 76gp, +13, 96 pims
Smith 68gp, 64 pims
Ferguson 78gp, +11, 120 pims
Semenov 46gp, -7, 58 pims
Pisa 48gp, +11, 24 pims

Smith/Staios/Ferguson/Semenov 268gp, 338 pims, +22

Team 230 goals against

Niinimaa/Brewer/Smith/Staios/Ferguson 365 gp


You can see here that the 5 main guys on the blueline played almost the exact same # of games but the difference in goals against was staggering. The main difference on the blueline was Poti&Brown out, Semenov&Pisa in. Seeing as Poti was a -6 with 17 points and 42 pims his wasn't that great a loss.

Brown got 43 more pims than Semi and Pisa put together in 33 games less. That's a whole lot of toughness out the window, all for an ahl'er.

Yeah that's also a lot of pp's to give up, but seeing as we gave up 50 less goals against that didn't seem to hurt us too much.



The numbers would support the argument that Brown must have done something right here, I've personally always been a big believer that intimidation on the blueline is a huge factor.

At 6'3" 215 pounds with 192 and 188 pim seasons under his belt you'd better believe that Brown is intimidating, and if he's no good then why would the NJ Devils have him in their system? They're probably one of the two best teams at scouting d-men in the entire league along with StL.


This was a very bad trade for the Oilers, no doubt about it. At least until someone comes along with some facts to support a different conclusion.


P.S.- For all of Fergie's inadequacies he's played 152 games with 223 pims and a +25 in the past 2.5 seasons. He's made about $1M in that period of time.

Oi'll say! 12-04-2003 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kraigus

(I wonder though, are those who criticise Brown for taking bad penalties the same ones lamenting the fact that Laraque never runs amok? I haven't bothered to check, and I won't, but if I just described you, well, give your head a shake.)

You make a great point there Kraigus, that would be the ultimate in hypocrisy if that was the case.

oildrop 12-04-2003 10:18 PM

I don't think that the reason why the Oilers are struggling and struggled last year defensively is because we traded Sean Brown for Bobby Allen. Lots of the difference in goals allowed has to do with Salo, plain and simple. He had a poor season last year and is playing poorly so far this season. I would rather have Sean Brown then Cory Cross but Brown wasn't a rock defensively on this team.

momentai 12-04-2003 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oi'll say!
2002/03

Niinimaa 63gp, -7
Brewer 80gp, -11
Staios 76gp, +13, 96 pims
Smith 68gp, 64 pims
Ferguson 78gp, +11, 120 pims
Semenov 46gp, -7, 58 pims
Pisa 48gp, +11, 24 pims

Smith/Staios/Ferguson/Semenov 268gp, 338 pims, +22

Team 230 goals against

Niinimaa/Brewer/Smith/Staios/Ferguson 365 gp


You can see here that the 5 main guys on the blueline played almost the exact same # of games but the difference in goals against was staggering. The main difference on the blueline was Poti&Brown out, Semenov&Pisa in. Seeing as Poti was a -6 with 17 points and 42 pims his wasn't that great a loss.

Didn't Janne injure his knee earlier in that season as well? Smith wasn't all that hot last year either even without the shoulder injury late in the season. I think those two things hurt us the most.

With a "healthy" Janne Niinimaa who would log 25+ minutes a night and Jason Smith a solid contributor and a monster force along the boards... every member of the defense can play more effectively. IE/ they are not being asked to do too much on the ice nor log too much icetime.

Master Lok 12-05-2003 11:57 AM

I think you're oversimplying your statistics to make an unreal conclusion that Brown was an invaluable member of the Oiler defense. He was a sixth defenseman, sometimes 5th, and rarely 4th. The Oilers gave him a chance and stuck with him and he improved slowly. I think the Oil had hopes that he would be a reliable defensive defenseman with an edge but he never panned out reliably. I remember there were spells every year where he would be sat out because his outlet passes were so poor and he couldn't get the puck out safely.

The end result, losing Brown hurt us more in the PIM's than in the +/-. Ferguson has done a capable job. I think Ferguson is less intimidating than Brown but cheaper salary-wise. The fact that Brown has lost his place with the B's and that NJ has sent him down to the AHL bears out that he's only a marginal NHL'er. Maybe we'll see him again the NHL... but I think that NJ is merely using him as insurance for an NHL experienced sixth defender.

rabi_sultan 12-05-2003 01:49 PM

just to cue in that the past two years the Oilers have changed their defensive structure/play since that year where they only let in 182 goals.

Oi'll say! 12-05-2003 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neogeo69
I think you're oversimplying your statistics to make an unreal conclusion that Brown was an invaluable member of the Oiler defense.

It didn't cost us 50 goals against the day he was traded, but what you fail to understand is that his intimidation factor remains tangible even while his teammates are on the ice. He will come out on his next shift and do what needs to be done and opposing players are wary of that.

Bleeding hearts will cry "stupid penalty", but the comfort level of the goalie is worth a pp every game or so.

Asiaoil 12-05-2003 06:57 PM

I find the amount of time this board spends discussing a has-been never-was 3rd rate talent like Sean Brown simply incomprehensible. If we wanted him back for nothing we could have had him - he's been a UFA once and on waivers twice. I think that's all we need to know. At least Bobby Allen has potential (limited as it is) and that's more than you can say about Brown.

Oi'll say! 12-05-2003 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asiaoil
I find the amount of time this board spends discussing a has-been never-was 3rd rate talent like Sean Brown simply incomprehensible.

I guess we were all just wondering how he managed to fake his way through 350 nhl games and come out ahead in +/-, and why the Devils would take a chance on him. It must be a sign of the apocalypse.

gretzky2kurri 12-05-2003 07:27 PM

He had a booming shot.

People never turned him down to scrap......and they usually lost.

That game against Atlanta when Kovalchuk was manhandling (girlhandling?) our first line center....the Oilers stood around and did nothing about it for the rest of the game. g2k was furious for a week.

Here's this hot-shot teenager yapping at the bench (cramming a goal down our throat) not much emotion from the Oilers though. Who's gonna fight BG anyway?

If Brownie woulda been around them.......somebody woulda been leaking all over the penalty box by the end of the period. Not necessarily Ilya. But a message would have been sent.

Alot of "team toughness" left with Sean Brown.

Like I said earlier, he seemed to be turning it around. 2 seasons ago if someone told me he would be put on waivers twice and would end up toiling in the AHL........I wouldn't have beleived them.

It all looked to be going the right way a while back. Something went wrong.

Too bad.

kraigus 12-05-2003 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asiaoil
I find the amount of time this board spends discussing a has-been never-was 3rd rate talent like Sean Brown simply incomprehensible. If we wanted him back for nothing we could have had him - he's been a UFA once and on waivers twice. I think that's all we need to know. At least Bobby Allen has potential (limited as it is) and that's more than you can say about Brown.

You'd prefer the three new threads a day on Mike Comrie? Thanks, I'd rather discuss Brownie. Nobody forces you to read this thread anyway. ;)


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