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-   -   Kids should stay in Hartford.. (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=342735)

Larry Melnyk 02-09-2007 11:06 AM

Kids should stay in Hartford..
 
Couldn't find a topic on the first page to throw this in, so hope it is OK, but feel free to move it

We have lengthy discussions on here about playing the kids or not..Alot of good points on both sides that make sense...But after I read the latest article on Hartford, I''m even more adamant they are in the right place....

http://www.courant.com/sports/hockey...adlines-hockey..

Schonfeld and company just seem to have a clue how to reach, teach, correct and discipline hockey players (as compared to Phd Students) and a hockey team, and not sugar coat their horrible play as "good things we aren't getting credit for"..Renney did this last year, but for whaever reason, it has escaped him this year....Plain and simple, the kids are in a better place for their development, IMO..

That doesn't mean I don't think Callahan isn't ready, he is, but taking everything into consideration, even he might be better off with the Hartford staff...Same for the rest of them who I do have concerns about being ready to contribute consistently in the NHL as of this date...Besides Dawes hasn't scored in like 10 games and Immo is a -86..

Of course, I won't scream if they are brought up to play, because I am interested in watching them. but I can wait if they are better served in hartford..

Fletch 02-09-2007 11:09 AM

My only problem...
 
is it seems as though a couple guys have regressed, and at least one (Callahan) isn't going to get any better down there.

Larry Melnyk 02-09-2007 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch (Post 7984439)
is it seems as though a couple guys have regressed, and at least one (Callahan) isn't going to get any better down there.

Is it regression or a lack of consistency,readiness,proper attitude that has reaered its' ugly head and hindered their performance.?? To me it just seems like Hartford is preparing them to develop as an indivdual and learn how to suceed as a team..

With Callahan, you have to rememberthis is only his 1st year of pro hockey..I have no doubt that he can still learn more at the AHL---with the proper coaching..Again, he can learn in the NHL to, but the environment right now is not right

Fletch 02-09-2007 11:27 AM

Hard to say...
 
but what makes a guy like Nigel Dawes go from scoring like crazy last season to not being able to find the net? Ditto Immonen? Were both not that good last season? Is it them? Is it coaching? What is it? In watching games in Hartford, both actually seem to play well, and when paired with Callahan, the trio does well. When not, it's a different story, which seems to go to each line as depth and consistency could be a problem. I dunno. Dawes seemed to take to the NHL game just fine. And Immonen, while a big minus when he was called up, was only -2 in his 13 games, which was about on par with what that second line was doing anyways (I will say his AHL minus has to do with a lack of ES scoring, and not his defense though, if that means anything). Tough to explain these things.

I do remember that with Callahan - but watching him in October, and watching him now, I see little difference in his game, and watching him in the NHL, I saw a kid that could keep up. So to me, if he can keep up at the NHL level, and quite possibly has peaked offensively, then I see no other place for him. Callahan, while in his first pro season, did play as an overager last season and isn't like Dubi, meaning a 20 year old rookie.

Larry Melnyk 02-09-2007 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch (Post 7984684)
but what makes a guy like Nigel Dawes go from scoring like crazy last season to not being able to find the net? Ditto Immonen? Were both not that good last season? Is it them? Is it coaching? What is it? In watching games in Hartford, both actually seem to play well, and when paired with Callahan, the trio does well. When not, it's a different story, which seems to go to each line as depth and consistency could be a problem. I dunno. Dawes seemed to take to the NHL game just fine. And Immonen, while a big minus when he was called up, was only -2 in his 13 games, which was about on par with what that second line was doing anyways (I will say his AHL minus has to do with a lack of ES scoring, and not his defense though, if that means anything). Tough to explain these things.

I do remember that with Callahan - but watching him in October, and watching him now, I see little difference in his game, and watching him in the NHL, I saw a kid that could keep up. So to me, if he can keep up at the NHL level, and quite possibly has peaked offensively, then I see no other place for him. Callahan, while in his first pro season, did play as an overager last season and isn't like Dubi, meaning a 20 year old rookie.

Not a fan of IMMO at all, just don't see him as an NHL player..As for Dawes, I don't know the answer why, I jsut know he's not doing the job against AHL competion right now and thus needs something to be worked on to get him past it...

As for Callahn, again, I'm not argtuing he can't play and learn in the NHL, I just think he still has more to learn wherever he goes and right now would receive better teaching/coaching in Hartford and also be in a better environment to continue developing,,

WhipNash27 02-09-2007 11:34 AM

Callahan is far and away the best player in Hartford and should be up here. Immonen and Dawes I think are shot from Renney's toying with them.

Garv23 02-09-2007 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk (Post 7984743)
Not a fan of IMMO at all, just don't see him as an NHL player..

You know, I'm glad you said this. Though I do see him in time as an eventual NHLer, he definately isn't ready, in my opinion. Everyone went nuts because he had that 6 or 7 point game but when he was here, I saw nothing but another Blair Betts. Not that that's a bad thing but we already have a Blair Betts.

dumpsathernow* 02-09-2007 12:06 PM

This thread is everything that is wrong with the Rangers and a lot of our fans. Go to the Devils front office. You might learn how to rebuild and develop youth.

eco's bones 02-09-2007 12:21 PM

Last years Hartford team was more veteran and more offensively creative. At least that's how I see the differences between them--this years team when it's doing well keeps the score low and can win the one goal games. I think that at least is part of what has effected Dawes and his offense--who also played with the same two linemates almost the entire season. As for bringing kids up--we might know in the next couple weeks that this team is out of it if they don't pull their heads out of their collective a***s quickly--that includes the coaching staff. If that happens I think it would be a good idea to bring up some of the kids Baranka, Callahan, Dawes, Montoya and even give others Korpikoski, Dubinsky, Byers a cup of coffee (2-3 games which they can take into the off season as on the job motivation for next year)--and either trading vets or sending some through waivers down to Hartford to make room.

dank 02-09-2007 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donutboy (Post 7985255)
This thread is everything that is wrong with the Rangers and a lot of our fans. Go to the Devils front office. You might learn how to rebuild and develop youth.

are you even a Rangers fan? it doesn't seem like it to me reading all of your posts..

EventHorizon 02-09-2007 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donutboy (Post 7985255)
This thread is everything that is wrong with the Rangers and a lot of our fans. Go to the Devils front office. You might learn how to rebuild and develop youth.

:dunno:

The Devils didn't develop their youth in the minors first? That's news to me.

I guess your idea of 'developing youth' is throwing them in at the deep end, watching them crash and burn and going from potential NHL regulars or even stars, to Ken Gernander in a year.

DutchShamrock 02-09-2007 12:51 PM

Larry, this isn't a Renney bashing post, I'm just trying to open another door in the discussion but....

Assuming your assessment of the Hartford staff is correct, isn't it a problem that they are able to do all of those things for the players and our NHL staff can't (or doesn't).

It sounds like there is accountablity, discipline, structure, systems and all sorts of fun intangibles down in Hartford. I've felt this whole season that the very lack of these things have contributed greatly to the poor play.

Maybe I'm reading into that too much, maybe the NHL staff shouldn't have to do those things to motivate players. Maybe its just easier to develop guys as opposed to using the assets at hand.

But if my thinking is correct, it is disgusting that the better coaches are at the lower levels.

Larry Melnyk 02-09-2007 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mugerya (Post 7985907)
Larry, this isn't a Renney bashing post, I'm just trying to open another door in the discussion but....

Assuming your assessment of the Hartford staff is correct, isn't it a problem that they are able to do all of those things for the players and our NHL staff can't (or doesn't).

It sounds like there is accountablity, discipline, structure, systems and all sorts of fun intangibles down in Hartford. I've felt this whole season that the very lack of these things have contributed greatly to the poor play.

Maybe I'm reading into that too much, maybe the NHL staff shouldn't have to do those things to motivate players. Maybe its just easier to develop guys as opposed to using the assets at hand.

But if my thinking is correct, it is disgusting that the better coaches are at the lower levels.

Mugerya, and I hate saying this, but I agree 100% :)..OK, maybe 85%..Because no matter what level you are at, over a long season it is the job of the coach to keep the team motivated and cohesive..

n8 02-09-2007 01:14 PM

something to consider, as of late, Hartford has been getting better and better. The team's confidence is growing. As of late, the Rangers have been getting worse and worse. The team's confidence is... shakey. What's the best situation for growth and development? Failure can teach you a lot of things. Confidence is not one on them. You'd have to look at where each player is physically and mentally to assess if a call-up is the right thing. And I remember Renney said in an interview during the All-star break when he was scouting in Hartford that if there was an open roster spot, Callahan would be called up. Hopefully the Rangers will learn next season the importance of roster flexibility and not having so many players they can't or won't waive.

Fletch 02-09-2007 01:15 PM

Larry...
 
Callahan is pretty much the player now that he was a couple months ago. My point is there's not much more for him to do in the AHL except get bored and regress, which is what I think happened to Dawes, who looked fine at the NHL level, but somehow can't cut it in the AHL now.

dumpsathernow* 02-09-2007 01:23 PM

Rangers management has used the same, stupid, lame, mentality for years. Leave the kids in Hartford. They aren't ready. Blah.... Blah.... Blah.....

Thus why this team has stunk for almost a decade and we always have just about no good, young players.

nyr2k2 02-09-2007 01:41 PM

Cally looks ready to me, as do Immo and Dawes. That's about it though.

Nich 02-09-2007 01:45 PM

the new 3rd line next season

dawes - immo - cally

i would love to see that

Larry Melnyk 02-09-2007 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch (Post 7986239)
Callahan is pretty much the player now that he was a couple months ago. My point is there's not much more for him to do in the AHL except get bored and regress, which is what I think happened to Dawes, who looked fine at the NHL level, but somehow can't cut it in the AHL now.

I disagree..Callahan has accelerated through the year and shown consistency, the main feature a kid has to show before being called up (IMO)..ANd I just think that a kid playing 20 mins a night in all situation (PK,PP, jey times) is goingto continue to learn and grow even if it doesn;t show on the point sheet..esepcially compard to 3rd or 4th line minutes in NY.....And if long standing consistency is as far as it goes, I'm fine with that too...

Well, if Dawes got bored and regressed becasue of it, then his apathetic ass deserves to be in Hartford till he gets his head on straigh and game back..The AHL is full of kids who were flash in the pans but never put in the work to stay that way even if they were returned to the minors..The ones that get back to the NHL have the mindset to get back there no matter what..

Fletch 02-09-2007 01:59 PM

I do hear you, LM...
 
although I do disagree on Callahan - he's been consistent since October when he was the only guy on the 'Pack scoring. I'm so-so on Dawes. I've seen him down there in about 10 games this season, and he isn't looking bad, just not finishing. He's playing hard and doesn't appear to be sulking, just not finishing.

I'll be watching tonight's Hartford game as Springfield/HFD may be more exciting that the Rangers' game tonight.

Larry Melnyk 02-09-2007 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch (Post 7986817)
although I do disagree on Callahan - he's been consistent since October when he was the only guy on the 'Pack scoring. I'm so-so on Dawes. I've seen him down there in about 10 games this season, and he isn't looking bad, just not finishing. He's playing hard and doesn't appear to be sulking, just not finishing.

I'll be watching tonight's Hartford game as Springfield/HFD may be more exciting that the Rangers' game tonight.

Eh, who knows, right FLetch.?..But I am glad that Cally has shown the consistency which, of course..:), backs up the fact that Hartford has been good for him and getting him ready for the NHL..Just kidding, it's not a fact and you could use the consistency arguement to bolster your side too..;)....I think we both think Callahan is ready, I just think he can still improve in Hartford where he will get more ice, more situations and better caoching..

As for Dawes, that's good then..Once he finds the touch and puts it with the rest of his game consistnely, then he will be ready too..

Fletch 02-09-2007 03:10 PM

I agree, Larry...
 
just keep thinking of how certain guys looked in the NHL and how their NHL replacements look and I scratch my head.

But as I mentioned in another thread, we heard Renney, or Maloney, or both say that there were 5-6 guys ready and there was an implication, or an outright statement, that we'd see new guys in after the All Star Break. And as I mentioned in another thread, we saw Girardi replace Pock, Pock come in for an injured Malik, and that's it so far. I know that's off topic a bit, but it's kind of on topic too.

Anyways...I'll be watching the 'Pack game tonight for sure.

Pizza 02-09-2007 04:17 PM

Great move by Schony.

Leprechaun 02-09-2007 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk (Post 7984400)
Couldn't find a topic on the first page to throw this in, so hope it is OK, but feel free to move it

We have lengthy discussions on here about playing the kids or not..Alot of good points on both sides that make sense...But after I read the latest article on Hartford, I''m even more adamant they are in the right place....

http://www.courant.com/sports/hockey...adlines-hockey..

Schonfeld and company just seem to have a clue how to reach, teach, correct and discipline hockey players (as compared to Phd Students) and a hockey team, and not sugar coat their horrible play as "good things we aren't getting credit for"..Renney did this last year, but for whaever reason, it has escaped him this year....Plain and simple, the kids are in a better place for their development, IMO..

That doesn't mean I don't think Callahan isn't ready, he is, but taking everything into consideration, even he might be better off with the Hartford staff...Same for the rest of them who I do have concerns about being ready to contribute consistently in the NHL as of this date...Besides Dawes hasn't scored in like 10 games and Immo is a -86..

Of course, I won't scream if they are brought up to play, because I am interested in watching them. but I can wait if they are better served in hartford..

The problem with this kind of thinking is that it doesn't account for variability among prospects. Such blanket statements do not cover all bases and to adhere to a strict policy based on such reasoning can only hurt the organization. Every kid should be looked at on a case-by-case basis and dealt with according to individual needs. The staff in Hartford provides a great environment for the kids to develop in, but a generalized approach will only hurt everyone in the long run.

Not that you do not make some really good points, and most prospects in the rangers system would be best off in Hartford. I just wanted to point out that we can not take either approach to the extreme.

Larry Melnyk 02-09-2007 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leprechaun (Post 7989539)
The problem with this kind of thinking is that it doesn't account for variability among prospects. Such blanket statements do not cover all bases and to adhere to a strict policy based on such reasoning can only hurt the organization. Every kid should be looked at on a case-by-case basis and dealt with according to individual needs. The staff in Hartford provides a great environment for the kids to develop in, but a generalized approach will only hurt everyone in the long run.

Not that you do not make some really good points, and most prospects in the rangers system would be best off in Hartford. I just wanted to point out that we can not take either approach to the extreme.

Oh, I agree. I think Girardi earned a call up to NY with his consistenlty good play OVER TWO years. He should be there. Callahan has also shined in every situation this entire year and been consistent throughout...He also deeserves to be recalled..

WHy I'm hesitant to Push him up is because I don't like what's going on in NY this season. It's been very chaotic and I don't think Renney has put his players, especially kids and role players, in the best position to succeed. Unlike in Hartford. He will learn in both places, but I'm more confident that he will learn in Hartford right now and that's why I have no problem keeping him there..As for the rest, I just don;t think they deserve a call up.


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