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-   -   last 4 games decided by refs... (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=34422)

Janerixon 12-08-2003 02:43 PM

last 4 games decided by refs...
 
our last 4 games were all games where the refs, not the players, decided who would win

1st game against the leafs kasper was pushed into dunham so dunham could not make a save and it was the difference costing us the game

in the 2nd toronto game poti was picked off and there was no call leading to a nolan goal, then poti was chucked into dunham which was clearly goalie interference and again no call, sundin scores, we lose 5-4

the islander game, we finally get some breaks, 2 islander goals disallowed and the peca major which im not so sure was a major

then last night, how sarich is not penalized on a completely careless play were not only was a penalty due, but a double minor was warranted, then sarich scores the game winner when he should have been in the box

it is very clear the 2 ref system is not working at all, what else does the NHL need to do to fix this problem?

i dont watch much basketball but i watch football and baseball, those 2 sports manage to get the calls right most of the time, football has instant replay along with coaches challenges, baseball the only real problem is the strike zone, which always will be an issue, but there is always a problem with NHL officiating

do all the refs need to go? can there be some new methods tried out? i remember last year when interference was called if you coughed in the direction of a player slowing him down, now goalie interference isnt called, high sticking is only called if your name is lindros, i still dont understand why the 2nd disallowed islander goal was disallowed it was never really explained, cant forget the barnaby "roughing penalty" during the nolan scrap that didnt help us

our last 4 games were clearly decided by the refs and if i was sather i would first be all over this team for last nights pathetic 3rd period performance and secondly be all over the NHL who has no idea what a penalty is

Brooklyn Ranger 12-08-2003 07:12 PM

Poor, Poor Rangers! Everyone is conspiring against them making the playoffs!

Ya know what? It gets old fast. And it's really old. Go to any hockey board, for any team--NHL or AHL--and you will find the same complaints about the officiating. Other teams manage to make the playoffs, even though they suffer from the same lack of consistancy and poor calls. It happens and it costs more than the Rangers games.

But let's also be very clear--good teams make their own luck and are capable of overcoming bad calls because they continue to work hard shift in and shift out. They fight through the holding and the clutching and grabbing and they force the officials to call things their way because of their hard work. When the Rangers start doing that on a regular basis, I will be much more tolerate of their moaning and groaning about all the bad calls they get. Until then, it's just another excuse from group that is not willing to play like it matters. They lose because they are not good enough to win.

LeServ 12-08-2003 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger
Poor, Poor Rangers! Everyone is conspiring against them making the playoffs!

Ya know what? It gets old fast. And it's really old. Go to any hockey board, for any team--NHL or AHL--and you will find the same complaints about the officiating. Other teams manage to make the playoffs, even though they suffer from the same lack of consistancy and poor calls. It happens and it costs more than the Rangers games.

But let's also be very clear--good teams make their own luck and are capable of overcoming bad calls because they continue to work hard shift in and shift out. They fight through the holding and the clutching and grabbing and they force the officials to call things their way because of their hard work. When the Rangers start doing that on a regular basis, I will be much more tolerate of their moaning and groaning about all the bad calls they get. Until then, it's just another excuse from group that is not willing to play like it matters. They lose because they are not good enough to win.

The really good teams turn the anger from a bad call into positive energy. They kill the penalty and go down and score. I played in a game once where the refs counted a goal for the other team that clearly hit the post. Even the linesman agreed with us. We were so pissed we took the next faceoff down the ice and put it right in the net. The five of us were completely energized.

Brooklyn Ranger 12-08-2003 07:37 PM

That's a very good point, LeServ. And something that we've rarely seen from this "team" for a very long time.

Barnaby 12-08-2003 07:56 PM

Bottom Line: WE LOST.

You think Tanguay gets hit in the face like Hlavac did last game and the Avs will just come apart? No. Yet another difference between a quality team and a mediocre (I'm being generous) team.

Janerixon 12-09-2003 01:49 AM

Im not disagreeing with you guys at all, if you read my last statement it says first that sather should be all over this team for the fact that they just give up, but at the same time him not only being a coach but a GM and Team president he should be asking the nhl why officiating is ruining this game

my point isnt poor poor rangers, but more like shame on the nhl, the officiating is just awful, obviously its not just against the rangers, the islanders got burned by officiating in the game vs us, the point is it should be players who win games not the zebras who determine who will win games

Laches 12-09-2003 04:48 AM

Complaining about officiating is like complaining about the weather.

Look, the officiating sucks, we all know that, what else is new?. But it's something that every single team in the entire league has to deal with. It's not like the game is called fairly for 29 teams and it's only the Rangers that have to deal with bad calls. Games are decided by players, not officials. Other teams are able to overcome bad calls. The Rangers are not. That's the difference. No using the officiating as an excuse, explanation or justification for the Rangers losing games they should get at least a point out of.

True Blue 12-09-2003 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laches
But it's something that every single team in the entire league has to deal with. It's not like the game is called fairly for 29 teams and it's only the Rangers that have to deal with bad calls.

Here is where I am beginning to change my mind. I know full well that ALL teams have to deal with bad calls. However, there are times when I think that the refs HAVE singled out the Rangers. Let's go back to the Toronto home and home. Now we all know that those 2 games were pretty bad as far as officiating goes. Howeve, an eye poping stat that emerged out of that series is the Pp's for and against. Toronto may be the most penalized team in the league, but they have been given the same amount of PP's as they have been short-handed. The Ragners, on the other hand, through the last Toronton game have been penalized 10 times less than the 'Leafs, but have been given given about 40 less PP's. So while they had 92 or so PP's for, they were short-handed 126 times. That's the disparity that I am talking about. I could care less about bad calls if they were called poorly on BOTH teams playing the game. Howeve, the penalty calling has been woefully one-sided. Stats prove it, so there is no real debate there. Take that and the fact that there seem to be a good amount of pretty bad non-calls during games (penalties NOT called on the other team when they should be....ie the Sarich play the other day, the Sundin non-call when he was blatanlty holding Kovalev's jersey right in front of the ref) and it SEEMS like the Rangers are at a disadvantage from the get-go.

Fletch 12-09-2003 05:37 AM

I think the bottom line TB...
 
is that the vast majority of games in which the Rangers played are called more towards the opposing teams than the Rangers. I don't care what goes on for the rest of the league - officiating sucks - but in the games in which the Rangers play, they don't get their share of PPs, and get called for too many penalties.

With that said, a good team should overcome that. Granted it's difficult killing all those penalties (and I believe that there's the law of diminshing returns, meaning the more you have to kill, the percentages rise (not just absolute numbers) in terms of giving up goals; further, I believe it helps getting more PPs to get the PP going, which increases the chances of scoring.

Sorry to ramble, but they just have to overcome this. The refs don't cause the breakdowns. The refs don't cause the team to not play 60 minutes. They gotta do those things to win.

And again, this team is made up of guys notorious for being in the box. heck, Kovalev used to get over 100 PIMs (a fair amount not deserved, but he still gets that). Holik too. Barnaby, Simon, Lindros, Kaspar, Malakhov, etc...these are 80-100+ PIM guys. What does one expect?

True Blue 12-09-2003 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch
The refs don't cause the breakdowns. The refs don't cause the team to not play 60 minutes. They gotta do those things to win.

And again, this team is made up of guys notorious for being in the box. heck, Kovalev used to get over 100 PIMs (a fair amount not deserved, but he still gets that). Holik too. Barnaby, Simon, Lindros, Kaspar, Malakhov, etc...these are 80-100+ PIM guys. What does one expect?

On the first, I am in full agreement with you. The refs do not cause this team not to playl hard. I am not blaming the refs for that. All I am saying is that the Rangers start a game at a disadvantage becuase while the refs look for every little infraction (both real and imagined) to call a penalty on the Rangers, the other team seems to get away with murder when playing them. Yes, the Rangers have to find a way to overcome that as a team. However, it sucks knowing that you start a game with strikes 1 and 2 while the other team starts with a new slate.

And as for how many people they have that have been 100 PIM guys, that does not hold water. I know that guys like Matty, Kasper, Holik, Simon, etc...all have reputations. However, how do you explain that the 'Leafs have Tucker, Domi, Noloan, Roberts, Marchment and still manage to have as many PP's as they are short-handed? I mean I can see the 'Leafs gripping becuase they are the most penalized team in the league, however cannot gripe all that much when you are given as many PP's as the other team. Here is where I have problems. I understand that the "reputation calls" will be made against the Rangers. But, what irks me is that the refs seem to put the whistle away when it is time to call a penalty on the opposing player.
And think of the Flyers. Are Roenick, Prims, Brashear, Ragnorsson suddely angels? Why are their player not given the "reputation" calls?
I understand fully well the type of players that the Rangers have. However, that should not stop the refs from calling penalties on other teams when playing against us.
Think of it, how may times have we watched a game and said, "I cannot believe that so an so got away with something" when talking about the other teams players. Or "How could the ref not see something?". Just look at the events of the last several games or so. The Toronto series was a joke. Recall Barnaby getting 2 extra minutes when tangling with Nolan (not Joe Sakic here) and how about the extra time that Simon got for going at it with Marchment? Marchment, who is one of the dirtiest players in history and has been suspened no less than 10 times, is an angel compared to Chris Simon? Come on.
The Sarich slash did not cause the Rangers to stop playing hard, but it was at the heart of the loss. A 2-handed chop right in front of 2 refs goes uncalled.
Stats prove the the Ranger games are called extremely one-sided. One can argue to see if it is a coincidence, but facts are facts. And if we look at the previous years (remember the overtime penalty shot given to the frggin' Flyers?) it seems to me that it is more than just a coincedence. Like you said before, it's been this way ever since Messier ripped apart the refs in 1996. Unless you consider Fraser, then it goes back to his war with Bergeron.

John Flyers Fan 12-09-2003 07:05 AM

Teams that have a greater or worse than 10 differential between power play opportunities. Teams in Bold are current playoff teams.

Coyotes -41
Rangers -36
Panthers -34
Flyers -18
Sabres -16
Isles -14
Blues -13


Blue Jackets +26
Predators +22
Lightning +22
Kings +20

Wild +14
Penguins +13
Hurricanes +13
Thrashers +12
Stars +10

True Blue 12-09-2003 08:03 AM

The above just proves my point. We have been shorthanded 36 more times than than we've been given PP's. I'm sure that the refs have ovelooked something as the 'Yotes are actually worse, alibeit by only 5. Eventually, the "How could they not call that on the opposing player" and "How could they call that a penalty on us" all add up. The proof is in the pudding. Rangers go into games with a preset disadvantage.

John Flyers Fan 12-09-2003 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
The above just proves my point. We have been shorthanded 36 more times than than we've been given PP's. I'm sure that the refs have ovelooked something as the 'Yotes are actually worse, alibeit by only 5. Eventually, the "How could they not call that on the opposing player" and "How could they call that a penalty on us" all add up. The proof is in the pudding. Rangers go into games with a preset disadvantage.


I'm not going to comment on whether or not the Rags get screwed or not, as I've only seen them play 4 or 5 times this year.


One point I would like to make is that there SHOULD be a discprency as to the # of PP's teams get.

It's an absolute joke that in 90% of games in the NHL you can look at the boxscore at the end of the game and the PP's for each team are identical or within one.

If one teams deserves 8 PP's to another teams 2, then that is how the game should be called. It's a joke that as a general rule the worse a team is the more PP's they seem to get.

It makes sense that if Team A is dominating Team B, on most nights Team A should get more PP's (as most penalties are taken when stuck in your own end for a time, or when the other team has the puck)

The fact that team like the Pens, who never have the puck, have 13 more power play chances than their opposition is a travesty.

Fletch 12-09-2003 09:19 AM

Tb...
 
the Leafs are one of the league's most penalized teams. With that comment I made it really only addressed the penalties-for.

As for the non-calls...one thing the Rangers need to start doing is diving a bit. While every team has divers, it's done (and works) more against the Rangers than for. I think that will be a lot better for the game too.

RANGERDIEHARD 12-09-2003 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger
Poor, Poor Rangers! Everyone is conspiring against them making the playoffs!

Ya know what? It gets old fast. And it's really old. Go to any hockey board, for any team--NHL or AHL--and you will find the same complaints about the officiating. Other teams manage to make the playoffs, even though they suffer from the same lack of consistancy and poor calls. It happens and it costs more than the Rangers games.

But let's also be very clear--good teams make their own luck and are capable of overcoming bad calls because they continue to work hard shift in and shift out. They fight through the holding and the clutching and grabbing and they force the officials to call things their way because of their hard work. When the Rangers start doing that on a regular basis, I will be much more tolerate of their moaning and groaning about all the bad calls they get. Until then, it's just another excuse from group that is not willing to play like it matters. They lose because they are not good enough to win.


Take a look at the over/under on how many penalties have been called on us as opposed to for us and I think that you'll be very surprised; we have the widest margin in the NHL of calls against us vs. calls for us. However it's not the only reason why we are losing half the games we play in, but it does contribute somewhat - plus it's very frustrating.

SingnBluesOnBroadway 12-09-2003 10:47 AM

My biggest problem with the officiating in the home and home with the Leafs was the three penalties that should have been offsetting which resulted with a Leaf powerplay (the extra 2 that Barnaby got with Nolan, the two extra twos that Simon got).

True Blue 12-09-2003 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
My biggest problem with the officiating in the home and home with the Leafs was the three penalties that should have been offsetting which resulted with a Leaf powerplay (the extra 2 that Barnaby got with Nolan, the two extra twos that Simon got).

Not even mentioning the pick plays that should have been called as interference that resulted in the last 2 'Leaf goals, those penalties mentioned above were pretty bad. However, equally as bad were several non-calls. To wit, Sundin yanking Kovalev by back of his jersey, Pilar falling on the puck in front of the 'Leafs goal, picking up the puck and throwing it, and Kasper getting blatantly cross-checked into the goalie.

"the Leafs are one of the league's most penalized teams. With that comment I made it really only addressed the penalties-for"

I know that, Fletch. However, to see a scope of how one-sided the reffing has been in Ranger games, one needs to also look at the amount of non-calls that go the other team gets away with.

Like I said, I am not blaming the refs for the 10 Ranger losses this year. However, if nothing else, the last 5 games or so have brought into light just how one-sided the officiating is when it comes down to game time. Certainly, in the last 3 losses, if one looks closely enough, one will see that the refs seemingly go out of their way to help the other team along.

Brooklyn Ranger 12-09-2003 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RANGERDIEHARD
Take a look at the over/under on how many penalties have been called on us as opposed to for us and I think that you'll be very surprised; we have the widest margin in the NHL of calls against us vs. calls for us. However it's not the only reason why we are losing half the games we play in, but it does contribute somewhat - plus it's very frustrating.

And you know what? If the players on the Rangers actually worked harder and kept moving their feet and getting into position instead of taking the easy way out, they would get more penalties called for them. Teams that work hard get the calls, until the Rangers realize that winning hockey games means working hard every single shift, they will be the ones in the penalty box.

SingnBluesOnBroadway 12-09-2003 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Not even mentioning the pick plays that should have been called as interference that resulted in the last 2 'Leaf goals, those penalties mentioned above were pretty bad. However, equally as bad were several non-calls. To wit, Sundin yanking Kovalev by back of his jersey, Pilar falling on the puck in front of the 'Leafs goal, picking up the puck and throwing it, and Kasper getting blatantly cross-checked into the goalie.

"the Leafs are one of the league's most penalized teams. With that comment I made it really only addressed the penalties-for"

I know that, Fletch. However, to see a scope of how one-sided the reffing has been in Ranger games, one needs to also look at the amount of non-calls that go the other team gets away with.

Like I said, I am not blaming the refs for the 10 Ranger losses this year. However, if nothing else, the last 5 games or so have brought into light just how one-sided the officiating is when it comes down to game time. Certainly, in the last 3 losses, if one looks closely enough, one will see that the refs seemingly go out of their way to help the other team along.


I agree TB. My point is, the biggest problem I had were not the calls, non calls, missed calls. It was the calls additional calls made that made offsetting penalties into Leaf power plays.

True Blue 12-09-2003 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger
If the players on the Rangers actually worked harder and kept moving their feet and getting into position instead of taking the easy way out, they would get more penalties called for them.

Come on, Brook. Much as we still do not like the way things have gone on the ice, I think that we can agree that this year's version has been much better than prior ones. This year's verison has worked harder. But the officiating results are still the same. You cannot argue with facts. And the facts are that the Rangers have the 2nd worst differntial between PP's and PK's in the league. Add that to the amount of non-calls that we witness nearly every game and you have one-sided reffing.
Again, do not misconstrue what I am saying. The refs ARE NOT solely responsible for the 10 losses. The refs cannot cause Poti to clear the crease anymore than they can prevent Hlavac from overpassing. However, they can have a direct effect on the amount of times the Rangers are shorthanded or have the extra man. And they have had a direct effect on that. Facts are facts and like in a court of law, they are hard to dispute.

Brooklyn Ranger 12-09-2003 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Come on, Brook. Much as we still do not like the way things have gone on the ice, I think that we can agree that this year's version has been much better than prior ones. This year's verison has worked harder. But the officiating results are still the same. You cannot argue with facts. And the facts are that the Rangers have the 2nd worst differntial between PP's and PK's in the league. Add that to the amount of non-calls that we witness nearly every game and you have one-sided reffing.
Again, do not misconstrue what I am saying. The refs ARE NOT solely responsible for the 10 losses. The refs cannot cause Poti to clear the crease anymore than they can prevent Hlavac from overpassing. However, they can have a direct effect on the amount of times the Rangers are shorthanded or have the extra man. And they have had a direct effect on that. Facts are facts and like in a court of law, they are hard to dispute.

Sorry TB, I disagree, first and foremost with the idea that is group is "much better" than past seasons. Have the Rangers suffered from bad calls? Sure, just like every other team. But, I also see a group on the ice that doesn't consistantly try and skate through the clutching and the grabbing, that uses stick checks instead of body checks, that doesn't get into position and then hooks or slashes the player that has just beaten them. Until that changes, the officials are not going to give the Rangers the benefit of the doubt and start calling the little things in their favor.

We can moan and groan over the officating all we want, but until the Rangers actually play to win, they have only themselves to look into the mirror when they lose. And no matter what Sather says, that's the bottom line. When teams play to win, they win and so far his "team" has mostly been playing not to lose.

Edge 12-09-2003 03:13 PM

every team has bad calls against them, the good one's overcome them. That about says it all.

This team can blame officiated all it wants, but officiating doesnt lose 4 games, not trying for all 3 periods does.

if the rangers put themselves in situations where a bad call can cost them 4 games then they didnt deserve to win. they have no one to blame but themselves.

Janerixon 12-09-2003 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge
if the rangers put themselves in situations where a bad call can cost them 4 games then they didnt deserve to win. they have no one to blame but themselves.

thats not really my point of this thread, maybe thats what it has evolved too. i clearly blame the rangers for the loss to the lightning and the 1st loss to the leafs, to be honest though i cant blame them for the loss to the leafs in toronto, they came back and fought hard minus de Vries, simon, and messier while the officiating was horrendous causing 2 goals that should have been called back

but back to the point... NHl officiating is just terrible, it ruins the game, period

if the NHL plans to be successful in the future (if we have a lockout then i guess not) the officiating needs to be looked at

things need to change because the 2 ref system is a failure, refs dont call penalties, some refs call everything while others call nothing, the refs arent going to determine what the rangers do 82 games a year, but the fact they have had such a huge impact on the last 4 really shows how bad NHL officials have become

again the refs are not my scapegoat, ill say it here this team still has a ways to go before they deserve to be a playoff team, but as a fan of hockey it is clear that officiating is hampering and ruining the games this year, what does that mean for people who are trying to just get into hockey? how confusing must it be for them, ***** the refs dont even know what penalties are these days so how can a newer fan or someone trying to play hockey understand either? its just sad that the last 4 games have been so largely impacted by poor officiating

that is the point

True Blue 12-11-2003 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger
And you know what? If the players on the Rangers actually worked harder and kept moving their feet and getting into position instead of taking the easy way out, they would get more penalties called for them.

Now how does this apply to last night? When working hard, the Rangers were intefered with all over the ice and in front of refs and the refs still choose not to call anything on the Habs. The refs were not behind the loss to the Habs, but their refusal to call the most blatant of obstruction was obvious last night.

Brooklyn Ranger 12-11-2003 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Now how does this apply to last night? When working hard, the Rangers were intefered with all over the ice and in front of refs and the refs still choose not to call anything on the Habs. The refs were not behind the loss to the Habs, but their refusal to call the most blatant of obstruction was obvious last night.

Working hard? Sorry, I must have seen a different game. And since the Rangers never led and only scored one goal I would suggest that the lack of scoring cost them the game.

And the Blueshirts got away with a few really obvious ones too.


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