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-   -   My thoughts on Jagr for Lindros and Poti... (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=34538)

LondonFan 12-09-2003 04:27 AM

My thoughts on Jagr for Lindros and Poti...
 
OK so Brooks today is saying Jagr for Lindros and Poti. Here are my brief thoughts, as I sit here at work on my lunch break:

I've been surprised by Lindros, in that he's been an excellent team guy. As far as I know anyway. On the other hand, you can't really say he's our number 1 centre, can you...because he gets injured so much. The line that he was supposed to be part of (Rucinsky-Lindros-Bure) just isn't gonna happen - one third of it is in retirement, the other third has found himself a different linemate.

Now I know noone wants Jagr because of the whole money thing, but aside from that, he's a guy who can score goals, and he isn't 34 years old. And he wants to play here. And can you imagine a PP with him and Kovalev on it?

With Lindros out and Jagr in, would this mean more room for younger players, like Lundmark?

And how about Poti - not exactly setting the world on fire is he.

So in other words, my thoughts are:

If the deal is Jagr for Lindros and Poti, I wouldn't be too bothered.

True Blue 12-09-2003 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LondonFan
Now I know noone wants Jagr because of the whole money thing, but aside from that,

Can't really say "aside from that". It IS a MAJOR sticking point. There WILL be changes in the way $$$ is spent. Be it through a hard cap or some sort of a luxury tax. Anyway, with said changes coming, you just cannot pay one guy $11m/per for the next 4 years. Let's say for argument's sake that the cap is $60m ( a nice middle-ground #). With Holik getting $9m, can a team really afford to have 1/3 of it's cap tied into 2 players?
Even if the Caps pick up half of his money, it needs to be seen how the #'s affect the cap. Will Jagr's $$$ count entirely against the Rangers since that is the team that he will be on? Or will he count half against the Caps and half against the Ragners? I'm betting that it is the former as opposed to the latter. And if that is the case, this team just cannot affort to have him here.
Not to mention, that ONCE AGAIN, Sather would be making a trade for what the Rangers do not need. There are holes on this team and Jagr does not fill one of them. The only thing that this would do is free up Jackass from that pesky question about how is Messier a top 3 center on a team that has Lindros, Nedved, and Holik. Get rid of Lindros and he no longer has to answer questions about why either Lindros or Nedved are shoved out of position so that Messier can be a top 3 line player.

SingnBluesOnBroadway 12-09-2003 04:45 AM

I also would want another player from the Caps. Someone like Grier, Halpern, Gonchar or Witt.

Fletch 12-09-2003 04:48 AM

I'd rather have a center...
 
than a right wing at this point. In my opinion, Lindros has played pretty strong this year. He hasn't been playing with the hottest teammates, and hasn't always been more than a 'fourth' line center, but he's been skating well, taking the body, and doing some nice work out there. Holik and Messier have been this team's main centermen. Nedved has largely disappointed thus far, and Lindros has been injured a bit, and has played the 'fourth' line a bit. It's a long season. Mess may not be healthy all season long. Nedved may struggle too (as may Jagr, with Nedved). Lundmark's hurt. Moore's not going much in Hartford. To me, it's not worth it.

Further, I want the Rangers to start gaining a bit of respect around the league. Getting Jagr is just another example of buying a player and I'm dead sick of it. It's something that makes this team marginally better, if any better, but it raises the marquee. If the Rangers want to get rid of Lindros and Poti, look for someone a bit younger. Lindros isn't a huge salary burden because, I believe, he's UFA at season's end. Pay 1/2 his salary for the rest of the season and get someone young and hungry. I'm just sick of this s---.

SingnBluesOnBroadway 12-09-2003 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch
than a right wing at this point. In my opinion, Lindros has played pretty strong this year. He hasn't been playing with the hottest teammates, and hasn't always been more than a 'fourth' line center, but he's been skating well, taking the body, and doing some nice work out there. Holik and Messier have been this team's main centermen. Nedved has largely disappointed thus far, and Lindros has been injured a bit, and has played the 'fourth' line a bit. It's a long season. Mess may not be healthy all season long. Nedved may struggle too (as may Jagr, with Nedved). Lundmark's hurt. Moore's not going much in Hartford. To me, it's not worth it.

Further, I want the Rangers to start gaining a bit of respect around the league. Getting Jagr is just another example of buying a player and I'm dead sick of it. It's something that makes this team marginally better, if any better, but it raises the marquee. If the Rangers want to get rid of Lindros and Poti, look for someone a bit younger. Lindros isn't a huge salary burden because, I believe, he's UFA at season's end. Pay 1/2 his salary for the rest of the season and get someone young and hungry. I'm just sick of this s---.

I agree that I want a center instead of a wing (especially a RW). Maybe this "deal" would send back something along with Jagr that the Rangers could package with something for Comrie? I have long felt that Comrie was going to be a Ranger.

Fletch 12-09-2003 05:31 AM

Lundmark getting hurt..
 
I think did away with any near-term play for Comrie.

Bluenote13 12-09-2003 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch
I think did away with any near-term play for Comrie.

I agree.

Barnaby 12-09-2003 06:37 AM

I say this.

NO Jagr. Too much money. Too much attitude.

Look into trading Poti, but do NOT give him away.

Let Lindros run out the last year of his contract and LEAVE.

NO Comrie. Too small. Too much attitude. Too high a price to pay for him.

Vito Andolini 12-09-2003 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LondonFan
Now I know noone wants Jagr because of the whole money thing, but aside from that, he's a guy who can score goals, and he isn't 34 years old. And he wants to play here. And can you imagine a PP with him and Kovalev on it?

This is said about every big name aquisition we make...how great they'd look with one of our other underachievers, and of course it never works out, so whats the difference this time? And the money issue isn't the only reason people dont want this guy. He's on the down side of his career, puts himself above the team at all times, and has no respect for the coaches. Who needs him, let Washington choke on his salary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LondonFan
With Lindros out and Jagr in, would this mean more room for younger players, like Lundmark?

Why would it...when Lindros missed those game earlier this year, I don't remember seeing Jamie get any significant time at center, so whats the difference whether its Lindros or Jagr taking up the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LondonFan
And how about Poti - not exactly setting the world on fire is he.

No he's not, and I'd love to deal this guy, but it has to be for something this team needs. He's one of the few trading commodities on this team, we shouldn't deal him for another guy with no trade value. We have to stop putting our backs to the wall.

Don't you see, we are just substituting one problem for another much bigger one.

NYR469 12-09-2003 06:57 AM

any deal for jagr that doesn't include washington's 1st rounder coming back is an AWFUL deal...

i don't care what players are included in that deal, jagr's contract will be absolutely devastating under the new cba (unless of course you want to argue that if will prevent the rangers from signing any more ufas for the next 7 years, which could be a good thing)...

what happens if the league gets there way and there is a hard cap?? we'd be stuck with jagr & a bunch of rookies/minor leagues cause we can't add anymore salary...now that might be an unlikely scenario, but IMO you need to prepare yourself for the worse and then if things turn out better you are ahead of the game. you don't hope things work out the way you want cause that increases the odds of you getting screwed...

so if you are going to screw yourself by adding his salary, you better get some quality young players that can fill spots for cheap

JR#9* 12-09-2003 07:05 AM

This whole handling of Lindros this year just boggles my mind.Slats is a F'in moron and he 1st fails to identify a big bodied linemate for Lindros to work with in his 3 yrs here and the way he's used and viewed Lindros as a spare part is just insane.

Lindros has played well this year and he's shown physical play, his hands have been very good since his last return and most of all he's been the best team player on the squad by remaining upbeat and keeping his mouth shut and doing exactly what he's told despite obviously getting jerked around by Slats.

Other than Bobby Lindros has been our best center hands down.Yes mess has some opportunistic goals but if you are going to compare he and Eric head to head Eric brings so much more to the ice and has been good in his own end and physical in all 3 zones as well as getting to the front of the net frequently.

Eric's even managed a PAG since coming back despite being on mostly the 4th line and a constant cahnge of linemates.Why go through all this and make the trade with all the risk involved if only to waste what game this guy still brings.Yes, he's not Lindros of '95 but he's still MUCH better than both Mess and Nedved of '03!!!

As for trading him in a deal for Jagr it just makes zero sense.That would be as it is now a team trying to accomplish something THIS year and being that Eric is a UFA after the season it isn't needed to get rid of his slaary for the rest of the season.

Mess is hurting the team in this situation and it's total BS.This team NEEDS Eric to be a factor and to me is is physically and mentally prepared to do this and has shown that but Slats handling on both he and the entire lineup is nothing short of an absolute joke and just leaves you scratching your head as to what the F this idiot is thinking about with his decisions.

The only player that would sense in a Jagr deal would be Darius and the balance of his contract.

klingsor 12-09-2003 07:34 AM

Couldn't agree more with JR#9 on this one.

Just imagine if Jagr had gotten the same treatment as Lindros has this year.

BLACKBURN 12-09-2003 07:55 AM

No thanks. Id rather keep Lindros, let alone give you poti aswell. I heard Boston might be inteested in poti.

Could a Poti for Jillson (+picks etc) work?

Jagr sucks, why help Washington out by not only taking away their problem but infact improving their eam?

ihatenewjersey 12-09-2003 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
I agree that I want a center instead of a wing (especially a RW). Maybe this "deal" would send back something along with Jagr that the Rangers could package with something for Comrie? I have long felt that Comrie was going to be a Ranger.

ok SBOB, u seem to be a higher ranking member of the board(besides being a mod),everyone seems to respect ur opinion, and seeing a few of your posts on jagr(maybe i'm wrong), u could be in favor of a deal with jagr, if its right?,what in ur utopia would be a perfect yet legit trade propsal that you would be happy with?????

ihatenewjersey 12-09-2003 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLACKBURN
No thanks. Id rather keep Lindros, let alone give you poti aswell. I heard Boston might be inteested in poti.

Could a Poti for Jillson (+picks etc) work?

Jagr sucks, why help Washington out by not only taking away their problem but infact improving their eam?


someone wrote in an article, maybe brooks, that we told boston f -off with asking about poti

True Blue 12-09-2003 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR#9
The only player that would sense in a Jagr deal would be Darius and the balance of his contract.

Just my .02 cents regarding Kasper. He's played well in the past few weeks. He has been FAR more physical than he has been at any point last year. Just like Holik has slowly evolved into the Holik that we used to hate, could it be that Kasper is slowly doing the same thing?

JR#9* 12-09-2003 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Just my .02 cents regarding Kasper. He's played well in the past few weeks. He has been FAR more physical than he has been at any point last year. Just like Holik has slowly evolved into the Holik that we used to hate, could it be that Kasper is slowly doing the same thing?

I like Darius and he has played OK this year but he still has 4 yrs left after this at something like 4-4.5 million per and he's on our 3rd pairing.If you can rid yourself of a contract like this with the new CBA coming you do it, simple as that IMO.

That's the only reason I bring his name up in such a deal.

SingnBluesOnBroadway 12-09-2003 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihatenewjersey
ok SBOB, u seem to be a higher ranking member of the board(besides being a mod),everyone seems to respect ur opinion, and seeing a few of your posts on jagr(maybe i'm wrong), u could be in favor of a deal with jagr, if its right?,what in ur utopia would be a perfect yet legit trade propsal that you would be happy with?????


If the right deal came my way, I would seriously need to consider it. And I do think that Jagr would play well for the Rangers.

I can't rationalize giving up a player like Poti or Lundmark (forget for a second that Lundmark is injured) in a deal for Jagr alone because I don't think that the Rangers would have to. Both Lundmark and Poti are worth more in other deals, IMO. The Market is more or less non-existant and the Rangers most likely will be bidding against themselves.

*Gulp* Ok, here goes.

To NYR: Jagr, Witt (Gonchar)

To WAS: Carter, Kasparaitis (Poti)

I have long maintained that the biggest asset the Caps will get in any potential Jagr deal is the financial relief from his contract. The Kaspar contract takes care of Washington throwing in more money to offset the Jagr contract. It also gives the Caps a serviceable player who replaces Witt (sort of). They also get back Carter who is on a one year deal, who has been part of their organization, and who depending on what happens with the CBA might become a very affordable and effective player for them.

The Rangers get Jagr (who more than replaced Carter), move one bad contract, and replace Kaspar with a player that they need in Witt. IMO the Caps need the Rangers more than the Rangers need the Caps in this case. And I believe it is up to the Caps to give the Rangers incentive to make this trade. Swapping Witt for Kasparaitis is that incentive. Poti and Gonchar are added if the deal is expanded.

I would then roll:
Hlavac - Nedved - Jagr
Rucinsky - Holik - Kovalev
Barnaby - Lindros - Simon
Scott/Lacouture - Messier - Ortmeyer

Leetch - deVries
Witt - Gonchar
M - M

True Blue 12-09-2003 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihatenewjersey
someone wrote in an article, maybe brooks, that we told boston f -off with asking about poti

I just read that. Given Poti's stellar play this year, how could Jackass simply say that he is unavailable? Is Sather really just being stubborn because he does not want it to be seen that he traded away Yorkie for nothing?
On the Lindros front, this is part of the Post article:

"It's bizarre, isn't it, that Lindros, who skated between Jed Ortmeyer and Dan LaCouture at yesterday's 75-minute, quarter-speed practice while Mark Messier reclaimed his spot between Chris Simon and Matt Barnaby, has become a mere afterthought on a Ranger team that takes one step back for every step it takes forward?

It's odd, isn't it, that a team that isn't especially strong on the puck and struggles to manufacture chances around the net - where nearly every goal is scored in the 21st Century NHL - wouldn't attempt to maximize No. 88's assets?"

It is simply mindboggling how in Sather's eyes Messier is viewed as a more important cog than Lindros. No, Messier is not the one telling Sather how to make a lineup, but his presence prevents normacly. I do not think that Sather is capable of making a lineup that somehow does not feature Messier in one way or another. Right now, Messier is averaging the 5th most average ice time of all the Ranger forwards. The only forwards that average more is the entire Holik line (they play the most) and somehow Nedved. That's it. Messier's average ice time should be with the bottom 5 forwards and not the top 5. Like I said, whiel Messier and Sather are here, this team will never take true steps forward.

JR#9* 12-09-2003 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
If the right deal came my way, I would seriously need to consider it. And I do think that Jagr would play well for the Rangers.

I can't rationalize giving up a player like Poti or Lundmark (forget for a second that Lundmark is injured) in a deal for Jagr alone because I don't think that the Rangers would have to. Both Lundmark and Poti are worth more in other deals, IMO. The Market is more or less non-existant and the Rangers most likely will be bidding against themselves.

*Gulp* Ok, here goes.

To NYR: Jagr, Witt (Gonchar)

To WAS: Carter, Kasparaitis (Poti)

I have long maintained that the biggest asset the Caps will get in any potential Jagr deal is the financial relief from his contract. The Kaspar contract takes care of Washington throwing in more money to offset the Jagr contract. It also gives the Caps a serviceable player who replaces Witt (sort of). They also get back Carter who is on a one year deal, who has been part of their organization, and who depending on what happens with the CBA might become a very affordable and effective player for them.

The Rangers get Jagr (who more than replaced Carter), move one bad contract, and replace Kaspar with a player that they need in Witt. IMO the Caps need the Rangers more than the Rangers need the Caps in this case. And I believe it is up to the Caps to give the Rangers incentive to make this trade. Swapping Witt for Kasparaitis is that incentive. Poti and Gonchar are added if the deal is expanded.

I would then roll:
Hlavac - Nedved - Jagr
Rucinsky - Holik - Kovalev
Barnaby - Lindros - Simon
Scott/Lacouture - Messier - Ortmeyer

Leetch - deVries
Witt - Gonchar
M - M

Agree 100% with you SBOB.

Of course there is major concern about adding a Jagr due to the contract but IF and that's a big IF Slats persues it this is exactly the way I'd like it to go down, players and lines both.

Fletch 12-09-2003 09:27 AM

Messier's become that COG..
 
with solid all-around play this season, in addition to leading the team in goals, all this while playing with 3/4 liners mostly. While I'd like to see Lindros get those minutes, and I believe Lindros is playing well and with energy and aggression, Messier hasn't done anything to deserve less ice time.

Laches 12-09-2003 09:29 AM

How many superstars have to come here and fall flat on their faces before some Ranger fans stop craving them? Jagr, his attitude and his ego can stay in Washington as far as I'm concerned.

JR#9* 12-09-2003 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch
with solid all-around play this season, in addition to leading the team in goals, all this while playing with 3/4 liners mostly. While I'd like to see Lindros get those minutes, and I believe Lindros is playing well and with energy and aggression, Messier hasn't done anything to deserve less ice time.

If Mess ain't scoring he's not bringing much else.He's been good on faceoffs and he's been OK on the PK but he isn't a factor in the offensive zone if he isn't scoring he isn't bringing much and his playmaking has been nil this year.

Lindros w/o any doubts deserves more icetime then Mess and he's been playing a very physical and involved game both on the boards and on the cycle and he's gotten to the net effectively, probrably been the teams best playmaking forward and he's skating well and has confidence in both his hands again and overall game.

All that needs to be done now is give the guy the right linemates and type of minutes that a guy like Eric needs to thrive.

NYR469 12-09-2003 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Just my .02 cents regarding Kasper. He's played well in the past few weeks. He has been FAR more physical than he has been at any point last year. Just like Holik has slowly evolved into the Holik that we used to hate, could it be that Kasper is slowly doing the same thing?

regardless of kaspar's play, his contract simply fits into the deal because of the length of the contract...

everyone takes the salaries of players for the current year when looking to cancel out, but ignore the fact that the guys the rangers would be sending back (like lindros) are in the final year of their contracts, while jagr has 5 years left on his...

so this year jagr for lindros is almost a wash, but over the remainder of the contract we'd be adding $45 mil...

but if you send kaspar back, it would be basically the same as the caps picking up $20 mil worth of the remaining contract and us getting jagr for $7 mil/year (with the other $4 mil being what we owed kaspar anyway)

i'm not in favor of any jagr deal, but sending kaspar to washington makes the most sense financially

NYR469 12-09-2003 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
I just read that. Given Poti's stellar play this year, how could Jackass simply say that he is unavailable?

first off i guarantee that sather didn't simply tell the bruins to go 'eff themselves' as someone here suggested...

there has been NO mention of who boston would give up, so the most likely events were that the bruins called offering crap and sather hung up...

sather isn't looking to give poti away, however him saying no to boston does NOT mean he is unavailable, it just means he isn't available at that price...

further you are taking this from larry brooks article in which brooks claims that the reason sather isn't willing to trade poti to boston is because sather plans to send poti to washington. so if you believe the report (and imo you can't believe just the part you like) that means that poti is only unavailable to the bruins cause he is being moved in another deal and you can't trade him twice (unless of course you are the nords moving lindros), not that sather won't trade him


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