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417 02-19-2007 10:00 AM

Dump and chase mentality
 
I'm watching the game yesterday, and at one point I see Guillaume Latendresse get a nice pass through the neutral zone with a head of steam, the Blue Jackets defense is actually backing up giving up their blueline because Latendresse is gaining the zone with speed.

Then, inexplicably, after crossing the Jacket's blue line with the puck, he mysteriously dumps the puck in the corner, result: The Blue Jacket's dman gets to the puck first and sends it up ice.

:shakehead

I'm wondering if this lack of creativity comes from the coaching staff asking the players to practice a dump and chase approach, which doesn't make sense considering we almost always only send one man in on the forecheck, or if it's the players lacking total confidence in themselves to make a play.:dunno:

What's even more frustrating, is when they do actually dump the puck in, usually you try to send it in on a side where you've got players coming in through the neutral zone with speed so they can forecheck, but they actually send it in where there's no chance for puck retrieval

Little details like that, go a long way...

AH 02-19-2007 10:06 AM

I keep saying it over and over again. You will behave as you are conditioned.

Our coaching is TERRIBLE. Carbonneau seems to think that if you can hold the fort 5 on 5, while exploiting the special teams, that's how you win. In theory that's not a bad strategy but at the same time, putting pressure on opposing D's will give you that many more PP opportunities and keep the puck 180 feet away from your net.

It's a short-sighted mentality and it's costing the team big time.

417 02-19-2007 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AH (Post 8132724)
I keep saying it over and over again. You will behave as you are conditioned.

Our coaching is TERRIBLE. Carbonneau seems to think that if you can hold the fort 5 on 5, while exploiting the special teams, that's how you win. In theory that's not a bad strategy but at the same time, putting pressure on opposing D's will give you that many more PP opportunities and keep the puck 180 feet away from your net.

It's a short-sighted mentality and it's costing the team big time.

Not sure if it's Carbonneau...it seemed to me in the first half of the season, the players were more willing to carry the puck, even take a hit to make a play...now a days it's like hot potato.

You could be right or it could just be a confidence issue:dunno:

ngc_5128 02-19-2007 10:10 AM

If it was during a line change, as a rookie it is a safe, decent play, IMO; it's not like Latendresse is a speedster that can rush the other way if he turns it over. I get miffed when I see a veteran just dumping it when the defence is backing up, line change or no.

That is one of the things Perez is really good at, bringing it deep during a line change. I secretly think he does it to increase his shift, but it usually creates a scoring chance, so I don't mind ;)

Ross MacLochness 02-19-2007 10:11 AM

I watched the game last night and wanted to cry. Our offensive system is in shambles and needs a complete overhaul. (Improvements in players are also needed, but our system isn't helping anything)

Almost everytime we wanted to change last night we dumped it in a gave them the puck while applying no support pressure. And everytime the puck ended right back in our zone.

ngc_5128 02-19-2007 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 417 (Post 8132741)
Not sure if it's Carbonneau...it seemed to me in the first half of the season, the players were more willing to carry the puck, even take a hit to make a play...now a days it's like hot potato.

You could be right or it could just be a confidence issue:dunno:

I hope it is a confidence issue, because since the slump started, the hitting is the one thing we had going for us that made us really hard to paly against. The last couple of games, things are starting to turn around...becuase we started to hit again. You can tell Higgins and Ryder are starting to get their confidence back, they are hitting alot more.

ngc_5128 02-19-2007 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slip Slidin' Slim (Post 8132765)
I watched the game last night and wanted to cry. Our offensive system is in shambles and needs a complete overhaul. (Improvements in players are also needed, but our system isn't helping anything)

Almost everytime we wanted to change last night we dumped it in a gave them the puck while applying no support pressure. And everytime the puck ended right back in our zone.

Except for the 2nd period. I wonder if the coaching staff, or a player for that matter, said something in the 1st intermission. Columbus was playing as bad as we were in the first. They started to hit in the 2nd period and actually forecheck *gasp* and it paid off. As usual, they slacked in the 3rd cause they had a lead. I hope the players can come away from that game with a lesson. They win if they forecheck.

AH 02-19-2007 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 417 (Post 8132741)
Not sure if it's Carbonneau...it seemed to me in the first half of the season, the players were more willing to carry the puck, even take a hit to make a play...now a days it's like hot potato.

You could be right or it could just be a confidence issue:dunno:

If indeed it is a confidence issue, then the coach has to bare responsibility for it with his constant tirades over the last 2 months. It doesn't help anyone. Instead of throwing a carrot out there for the forwards by opening it up, we have gone into a defensive shell of epic proportions.

Carbonneau sucks and I dont care how many players are dogging it. A team just doesn't collapse like that without a guiding hand being responsible for it.

mcphee 02-19-2007 10:16 AM

Not sure that I see it the same way. I've thought that too many players try and make a play that isn't there rather than simply getting it deep. Ryder and Samsonov being the 2 worst culprits. I don't believe they are coached to pass up plays on the rush. Recognition's the key, if a d man isn't giving you the line and you don't have a clear passing option, you have to get it deep.

Last night's play, I don't remember the specific play, but could it have been late in a shift ? Lats has struggled lately, just awful on Saturday I thought. He's back to thinking rather than reacting it seems.

My impression as to forechecking is that they are supposed to read the play, if you have a chance to get the puck, go with 2, but if you're late, set the trap. I think they're playing with so little confidence right now, that they aren't on the same page a whole lot. There were instances yesterday that 2 men forechecking were losing battles with 1 d man.

Le depisteur 02-19-2007 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 417 (Post 8132685)
I'm watching the game yesterday, and at one point I see Guillaume Latendresse get a nice pass through the neutral zone with a head of steam, the Blue Jackets defense is actually backing up giving up their blueline because Latendresse is gaining the zone with speed.

Then, inexplicably, after crossing the Jacket's blue line with the puck, he mysteriously dumps the puck in the corner, result: The Blue Jacket's dman gets to the puck first and sends it up ice.

:shakehead

I'm wondering if this lack of creativity comes from the coaching staff asking the players to practice a dump and chase approach, which doesn't make sense considering we almost always only send one man in on the forecheck, or if it's the players lacking total confidence in themselves to make a play.:dunno:

What's even more frustrating, is when they do actually dump the puck in, usually you try to send it in on a side where you've got players coming in through the neutral zone with speed so they can forecheck, but they actually send it in where there's no chance for puck retrieval

Little details like that, go a long way...

I completely agree with you... i'm not a fan of dump-and-chase as well than actual Latendresse's play...

Ross MacLochness 02-19-2007 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngc_5128 (Post 8132791)
Except for the 2nd period. I wonder if the coaching staff, or a player for that matter, said something in the 1st intermission. Columbus was playing as bad as we were in the first. They started to hit in the 2nd period and actually forecheck *gasp* and it paid off. As usual, they slacked in the 3rd cause they had a lead. I hope the players can come away from that game with a lesson. They win if they forecheck.

I totally I agree except that I think Columbus outplayed us in the 1st. They didn't get many scoring chances, but we got practically none and they were starting to break down our "trap".

Maybe it's because I haven't seen Columbus this year and I was suprised how big they are. That team is HUGE for the most part and they can all skate. Modin, Chimera, Fedorov, Nash, Klesla, Malholtra, Svitov, Hainsey, Shelly, Foote, Zherdev... Theres no way any of those guys are under 6'2-3. I think Columbus would have alot of success in the east.

milou 02-19-2007 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AH (Post 8132724)
I keep saying it over and over again. You will behave as you are conditioned.

Our coaching is TERRIBLE. Carbonneau seems to think that if you can hold the fort 5 on 5, while exploiting the special teams, that's how you win. In theory that's not a bad strategy but at the same time, putting pressure on opposing D's will give you that many more PP opportunities and keep the puck 180 feet away from your net.

It's a short-sighted mentality and it's costing the team big time.

I don't know where you got this idea about Carboneau , but may be you should try another road . This one is not a good one .

417 02-19-2007 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AH (Post 8132803)
If indeed it is a confidence issue, then the coach has to bare responsibility for it with his constant tirades over the last 2 months. It doesn't help anyone. Instead of throwing a carrot out there for the forwards by opening it up, we have gone into a defensive shell of epic proportions.

Carbonneau sucks and I dont care how many players are dogging it. A team just doesn't collapse like that without a guiding hand being responsible for it.

When you're struggling offensively, alot of times, if you play well defensively you cause turnovers and that's how you can get your confidence back.

The players have to be a bit more creative offensively IMO, how many 3 on 2's did I see last night where the puck carrier had no puck support, no option to pass to, the players have to show more awareness of their surroundings so they can put themselves into scoring positions to receive a pass...I don't remember the last time i've seen the drop pass play from the Habs :dunno:

417 02-19-2007 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcphee (Post 8132808)
Not sure that I see it the same way. I've thought that too many players try and make a play that isn't there rather than simply getting it deep. Ryder and Samsonov being the 2 worst culprits. I don't believe they are coached to pass up plays on the rush. Recognition's the key, if a d man isn't giving you the line and you don't have a clear passing option, you have to get it deep.

Last night's play, I don't remember the specific play, but could it have been late in a shift ? Lats has struggled lately, just awful on Saturday I thought. He's back to thinking rather than reacting it seems.

My impression as to forechecking is that they are supposed to read the play, if you have a chance to get the puck, go with 2, but if you're late, set the trap. I think they're playing with so little confidence right now, that they aren't on the same page a whole lot. There were instances yesterday that 2 men forechecking were losing battles with 1 d man.

Don't get me wrong, it's all about recognition, I just think that for alot of players their instinct lately seems to be, dump the puck.

Which is ok, but there's somewhat of an art to the dump and chase play is there not?? I'm sick of seeing them dump it in, then set up in their passive 1-2-2, then get beat up ice because all the players are flat footed and aren't skating...it completely defeats the purpose of playing that system. Is the dump and play strategy not designed to get the puck behind the dmen to try and cause a 2 on 1 forecheck situation...the Habs seem to be dumping and chasing just to set up their 1-2-2

As for the specific play with Latendresse, i'm not sure if he was at the end of a shift, but he did go in to try and forecheck on the play...indicating he still had some gas left

Puckhead58* 02-19-2007 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngc_5128 (Post 8132769)
I hope it is a confidence issue, because since the slump started, the hitting is the one thing we had going for us that made us really hard to paly against. The last couple of games, things are starting to turn around...becuase we started to hit again. You can tell Higgins and Ryder are starting to get their confidence back, they are hitting alot more.


The whole team needs to start hitting everything that moves!!!! Thats a big part of why the Habs are slumping so bad, because we stopped hitting and started to play like a bunch of Sally's. If we are going to play dump and chase hockey we need to have 2 forwards skating into each corner and hitting. If we have the boards covered each way, we should be able to keep the puck in the zone and if we are hitting it will force the defencemen on the other team to turn the puck over faster and create more chances for mistakes. We also need someone who can carry the puck deep into the offensive zone as well....we can't dump and chase all the time....sometimes we need to carry the puck in and set plays up instead of cycling the puck downlow and having 3 guys behind the net playing.

Stefan_Latulippe 02-19-2007 10:30 AM

It is like I have been saying for all those years, Habs management and most posters prefer puck-dumpers over talented players. The HABS have not won a thing for over 10 years with puck-dumpers (see Sunny and Juneau for instance) so it would be nice to see the coaching staff to go with talent iso dumpers.

#57 02-19-2007 10:31 AM

Usually when you have the puck in the neutral zone and you see your coach calling for a change up, you just dumb the puck behind the opposing net and give away the puck. That's what the Canadiens do.

I've thought of something though. I always wondered why they made any effort to cross the red line, and then dump the puck in, instead of maybe just hanging around your side of the neutral zone, making sure no one steals the puck from you, and when most of the lineup change is completed, you make a quick pass to your goalie, making sure it won't be intercepted, and you go back to your bench, completing the change up. The goalie proceeds to give the puck to his dman, and bang we are on the offense.

If we had enough confidence to do this and enough talent, we'd have the puck 80% of the time, we'd rarely if ever get any penalties, and we'd win games 5-1. I'm pretty them sure teams like Nashville or Buffalo would be unbeatable doing this.

Just picture yourself Kovalev all alone on the ice, noticing a change up. He fakes a couple of guys, comes back in his zone with little to no pressure, gives the puck to Halak, who waits a bit and then gives to Markov coming off the bench. He waits a bit a boom stretch pass to Higgins coming off the bench, and wang we're on the offensive. They make a good play and come out of their zone, circle a bit in our zone and lose the puck, Markov gets it, pass up front Higgins gets it, instead of dumping he stickhandles a bit, comes back gives it to Halak, and repeat.

What do you think. :eek:

HuntKop 02-19-2007 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngc_5128 (Post 8132755)
If it was during a line change, as a rookie it is a safe, decent play, IMO; it's not like Latendresse is a speedster that can rush the other way if he turns it over. I get miffed when I see a veteran just dumping it when the defence is backing up, line change or no.

That is one of the things Perez is really good at, bringing it deep during a line change. I secretly think he does it to increase his shift, but it usually creates a scoring chance, so I don't mind ;)

It was on a line change, I remember the play very well. We are an annoyingly dump-and-chase team most of the time - but this is one time it was merited.

Ross MacLochness 02-19-2007 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 417 (Post 8132908)
Don't get me wrong, it's all about recognition, I just think that for alot of players their instinct lately seems to be, dump the puck.

Which is ok, but there's somewhat of an art to the dump and chase play is there not?? I'm sick of seeing them dump it in, then set up in their passive 1-2-2, then get beat up ice because all the players are flat footed and aren't skating...it completely defeats the purpose of playing that system. Is the dump and play strategy not designed to get the puck behind the dmen to try and cause a 2 on 1 forecheck situation...the Habs seem to be dumping and chasing just to set up their 1-2-2

As for the specific play with Latendresse, i'm not sure if he was at the end of a shift, but he did go in to try and forecheck on the play...indicating he still had some gas left

So true and for how many years have we been saying this? There is no "chase" to our dump-and-chase.

It's not working and time for a change.

AH 02-19-2007 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milou (Post 8132839)
I don't know where you got this idea about Carboneau , but may be you should try another road . This one is not a good one .

mmm ok. I just write what I see.

shimy1221* 02-19-2007 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 417 (Post 8132685)
I'm watching the game yesterday, and at one point I see Guillaume Latendresse get a nice pass through the neutral zone with a head of steam, the Blue Jackets defense is actually backing up giving up their blueline because Latendresse is gaining the zone with speed.

Then, inexplicably, after crossing the Jacket's blue line with the puck, he mysteriously dumps the puck in the corner, result: The Blue Jacket's dman gets to the puck first and sends it up ice.

:shakehead

I'm wondering if this lack of creativity comes from the coaching staff asking the players to practice a dump and chase approach, which doesn't make sense considering we almost always only send one man in on the forecheck, or if it's the players lacking total confidence in themselves to make a play.:dunno:

What's even more frustrating, is when they do actually dump the puck in, usually you try to send it in on a side where you've got players coming in through the neutral zone with speed so they can forecheck, but they actually send it in where there's no chance for puck retrieval

Little details like that, go a long way...

i've been saying that the whole season....all the player can do is dump and chase...its frustrating...they rarely make n e nice plays....its carbos fault im sure...

Capitano 02-19-2007 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 417 (Post 8132741)
Not sure if it's Carbonneau...it seemed to me in the first half of the season, the players were more willing to carry the puck, even take a hit to make a play...now a days it's like hot potato.

You could be right or it could just be a confidence issue:dunno:

I agree, it's really strange to me as well. In the first half it wasn't like this.

Cap

Capitano 02-19-2007 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pink_floyd_floyd (Post 8132975)
i've been saying that the whole season....all the player can do is dump and chase...its frustrating...they rarely make n e nice plays....its carbos fault im sure...

Ok, so Carbo's team has success in the first half, so he decides to completely change our system and start dump and chasing because he wanted even better results? I can't see it. Maybe they just played without thinking as much in the first half of the season. :dunno:

417 02-19-2007 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntKop (Post 8132954)
It was on a line change, I remember the play very well. We are an annoyingly dump-and-chase team most of the time - but this is one time it was merited.

It happened several times, but on that specific play...Latendresse was in full flight and wasn't ready to change, in fact he went in to try and retrieve the puck but at that point the defense had given up the blueline so much, that it only took a few strides for them to retrieve it first.

mcphee 02-19-2007 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan_Latulippe (Post 8132928)
It is like I have been saying for all those years, Habs management and most posters prefer puck-dumpers over talented players. The HABS have not won a thing for over 10 years with puck-dumpers (see Sunny and Juneau for instance) so it would be nice to see the coaching staff to go with talent iso dumpers.

I think this over simplifies. If you go situation by situation, a player has to go with his best option. The play I keep seeing is Ryder getting a lead pass from koivu, then finding himself facing a d man and an opposing winger [himself trapping] and trying to beat him. Flipping it in becomes a good option when the lane gets closed.
Then, you have to do it right, send it in hard enough so that the goalie can't play it as it rings around to Higgins side, or just push it forward while you get it yourself. When you have no confidence, you do neither and the goalie intercepts it and the puck is out of your zone before you can get on their D.

Talent is being smart. I don't see any forwards on the team unwilling to make a play on a line rush, other than Murray/Downey.


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