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Nemchinov13 03-21-2007 07:58 PM

2nd Line Center
 
Ladies and Gentlemen!

Look no further - we've found our 2nd line center - none other than Sean Avery! It's a middle of the 2nd period, but boy, Avery looks good!

RangersFan 03-21-2007 08:00 PM

he looks great, but idealy he's a perfect 3rd line center on a good team.

poeman 03-21-2007 08:03 PM

if avery gets offensively better then most definetly.. but he isa ideal 3rd line center

Anthony Mauro 03-21-2007 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RangersFan (Post 8596073)
he looks great, but idealy he's a perfect 3rd line center on a good team.

those teams do not exist. fact: Sean Avery has top six talent. fact: Sean Avery can keep up and produce with skilled players. There's no reason not to use the assets you have the best you can, especially if you can save yourself the money and time of chasing a so called number one and number two.

When is this team ever going to be stacked enough down the middle to afford playing a guy like Avery on the third? And its all higlighted when we have a guy like Cullen who NEEDS to be on the third and not overwhelmed with too many responsibilities. Right now, Avery is showing he can handle it. Give it to him.

Nemchinov13 03-21-2007 08:18 PM

The way you guys talk - "on a good team" - is a bit unreal. How many teams are there that have a true 1-2 punch down the middle? And besides, I was talking about our unique situation, the Rangers situation.

The Thomas J.* 03-21-2007 09:02 PM

O man we may finally have a real second line!

If the 1st line dont shoot the puck it wont matter who our second line is

Edge 03-22-2007 12:43 AM

Uh guys not to snap the rose colored glasses off but Avery just scored his 15th and 16th goals, I don't know if I'd pencil him in as an ideal second line center just yet.

Right now Avery is a third line center and using him ideally in that role doesn't require being stacked.

The hope is that Avery can become a 20-25 goal scorer and about a 50 point player if he plays with scoring players. That's good, but that's not really an ideal fit. This team has to get away from accepting "passable" results from too many positions.

Maybe Avery can become a second line center, but I think we're getting a little two swept up in good emotions.

Last week the guy had scored 13 goals and was on pace for 15. Let's not get carried away here.

Nemchinov13 03-22-2007 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge (Post 8599878)
Uh guys not to snap the rose colored glasses off but Avery just scored his 15th and 16th goals, I don't know if I'd pencil him in as an ideal second line center just yet.

Right now Avery is a third line center and using him ideally in that role doesn't require being stacked.

The hope is that Avery can become a 20-25 goal scorer and about a 50 point player if he plays with scoring players. That's good, but that's not really an ideal fit. This team has to get away from accepting "passable" results from too many positions.

Maybe Avery can become a second line center, but I think we're getting a little two swept up in good emotions.

Last week the guy had scored 13 goals and was on pace for 15. Let's not get carried away here.

Such a party pooper.

Avery, without doubt, has become one of the best 3rd liners in the game in the last couple seasons. But I want to quote Joe Micheleti from the Philly game - "Avery is just a good hockey player." And that's what Avery is - a good hockey player. He can be a complete a-hole (and I just shudder at a thought of facing him as a fan, if he wouldn't have been a Ranger), he can pass, he can win draws (albeit against Hamburger), he wins battles for lose pucks anywher on the ice surface - just like Joe has said - a good hockey player. With that being said, yes, Edge - even with my rather small hockey knowledge I'm not blind to your opinion - Avery is not a perfect 2nd line center. But for now, he is the best of what we got. And that's what I meant when I've started the thread.

Edge 03-22-2007 01:10 AM

Well I think we have a chance to develop a third line over the next few years with guys who are considered to be amongst the top third liners (not the usual retreads).

But I also see that people tend to have the notion that being "only" a third line player is a kind of insult.

They get images of aging Brian Skrudland's and Mike Keane's and Adam Hall's in their head and so when you say "third line player" they tend to think of the failed players they've seen for the last decade.

I see the Rangers as possibly being able to put together a team similar to what you see in NJ or even Buffalo right now. There is no shame in being a third line player on those teams and IF the Rangers build correctly, the same can be said for them someday.

But I also think we're focusing on lines too much and not on actual play. Shanahan is leading the team in goals and is a core player, but technically he is a second liner on this team.

I think if the Rangers do this thing right, the actual line numbers will matter less and less.

eco's bones 03-22-2007 01:27 AM

To me Avery is a 3rd line player and maybe Cullen too. Callahan probably projects to that. We have a lot of other pieces coming along. A good third line has players that can hit for 30 or 40 or even a little more than 40 points for each a year. That's a contending team if you have a good top line and a good goaltender.

Nemchinov13 03-22-2007 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge (Post 8600018)
Well I think we have a chance to develop a third line over the next few years with guys who are considered to be amongst the top third liners (not the usual retreads).

But I also see that people tend to have the notion that being "only" a third line player is a kind of insult.

They get images of aging Brian Skrudland's and Mike Keane's and Adam Hall's in their head and so when you say "third line player" they tend to think of the failed players they've seen for the last decade.

I see the Rangers as possibly being able to put together a team similar to what you see in NJ or even Buffalo right now. There is no shame in being a third line player on those teams and IF the Rangers build correctly, the same can be said for them someday.

But I also think we're focusing on lines too much and not on actual play. Shanahan is leading the team in goals and is a core player, but technically he is a second liner on this team.

I think if the Rangers do this thing right, the actual line numbers will matter less and less.

That's exactly what I want! You are so right, Edge. In a few years, we can have the best 2 checking lines in the game: we already have Betts as an excellent checking center (4th line), we already have Hollweg and Ortmeyer (same story), Callahan is a pretty good 3rd liner already, Cullen and Avery are some of the best "3rd liners" already.

I Am Chariot 03-22-2007 07:22 AM

shoulda woulda blah blah blah

Sean Avery IS our 2nd line Center right now and he is making the most of his opportunity. What else do you want the guy to do?

I know this sounds a bit crazzzzzy , but Sean Avery may very well be our best player right now. He certainly gets consideration.

johnny_rudeboy 03-22-2007 08:21 AM

What do one do with Nylander then? He for sure isnt a "true" first line center and I was hoping he would be pushed down to 2nd line for next season and try to trade a first line center from a team. Not that I can see any teams having one to many... :(

I Am Chariot 03-22-2007 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny_rudeboy (Post 8601100)
What do one do with Nylander then? He for sure isnt a "true" first line center and I was hoping he would be pushed down to 2nd line for next season and try to trade a first line center from a team. Not that I can see any teams having one to many... :(

What is this "true' first line center ********. Nylander is so under rated. He's been great. Yea he could shoot the puck more, but that can be worked on. He's a evolved into great playmaker. His puck possesion is awesome. He can skate it end to end and set up his linemates.

What more do you want from your C?

Nemchinov13 03-22-2007 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cycleandshoot (Post 8601884)
What is this "true' first line center ********. Nylander is so under rated. He's been great. Yea he could shoot the puck more, but that can be worked on. He's a evolved into great playmaker. His puck possesion is awesome. He can skate it end to end and set up his linemates.

What more do you want from your C?

Aye!

johnny_rudeboy 03-22-2007 10:24 AM

Well call me a romatic but I was hoping for some one like Vinny or Thornton. Neither will be traded I know but one are allowed to dream...

Nich 03-22-2007 10:26 AM

prucah - drury - jagr
cally - avery - shanny

top 2 lines next year ;-)

johnny_rudeboy 03-22-2007 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nich (Post 8602108)
prucah - drury - jagr
cally - avery - shanny

top 2 lines next year ;-)


Drury is another great 2nd line center IMHO.

It is not a question about liking the players, I like both Drury and Nyllet. And yes, "Nyllet" Nylander is underrated, atleast underpaid. But I want a big though center who have guts and skills in one package and also a thouch of flair over him. Nylander is to much flair and to little guts if you know what I mean. With one or two quality D-man and a big first line center, this would have been a time to rest the star players for the oncoming play off.

Ola 03-22-2007 10:55 AM

Great discussion in this thread. I kind of agrees with both sides.

I've looked close on the 4 top teams in the league, and their lineup, and how much the best teams lines scores. These are all projected numbers for 82 games. Just dividing their goaltotals, with numberplays, *82=x. A team like Buffalo with allot of injurys got a bit inflated numbers due to they getting allot more PP time per game then they would have had with everyone healty. Nashvilles top line would probably have scored allot more if they were together all year.

Anyway, I think it gives good hints.

Buffalo
Pommonville-Briere-Hect= 34+34+19=77
Zubrus-Drury-Afinegenov= 25+42+35=102
Vanek-Roy-Stafford (Kotalik)=40+19+25=84
Peters&co.

Anaheim
Kunitz-McDonald-Sellane = 26+27+49=102
Moen-Pahlsson-Niedermayer= 11+9+6=26
Penner-Getzlaf-Perry= 29+26+19=74
Thornton-Marchant-Shannon

Nashville
Karaiya-Forsberg-Erat =25+20+19=64
Sullivan-Legwand-Hartnell =31+26+24=81
JP Dumont-Arnott-Radulov =20+34+21=75
Nichol-Fiddler-Tootoo

NJD
Gionta-Gomez-Elias =25+14+25=64
Parise-Zajac-Langenbrunner =31+18+24=73
Brylin-Madden-Pandolfo =16+10+11=37

NYR 06-07
Straka-Nylander-Jagr=32+25+28=85
Callahan-Avery-Shanahan=20+18+40=78
Prucha-Cullen-Ortmayer=21+17+5=43
Holly/Orr-Betts-Hossa

What conclusions can be draw from this? Well, I do think its pretty obvious that these teams aren't getting a ton of scoring from all lines. NSH 2nd line can be described as a perfect 2nd line, thoose three are avg something like 27 goals each per season.

Though, they got lines that wins the games in the games, all of them.

And thats really what its all about. There are in reality no diffrence between a line that scores 80 and lets in 60, and a line that scored 60 and lets in 40. So here I think Edge is a bit wrong with his thinking, a 2nd line center don't have to be a 70 pts player to be successful.

But on the other hand, its here I think Edge makes a great point, its also allot about beeing able to have an edge. To be able to score on will when the game in on the line, to have players that can do that little extra and put games away.

The bottom line, I don't think we must have all guys slotted in, like a typical 2nd line C on the 2nd line, a typical 1st line LW on the first, a typical 3rd line C on the third. ect. But we must have units that can win the games in the games, and have that little extra spice with players that are great at scrambling forward that little extra offense thats needed at certain times. Like Jagr and maybe Shanahan.

I think we would be able to have 4 solid lines next season;
Hossa-Nylander-Jagr
Callahan-Avery-Shanahan
Straka-Cullen-Prucha
Hollweg/Orr-Betts-Ortmayer


I think the research above show that comparing with the rest of the league, none of thoose players really are in over their heads, our 4th line would be a excellent checkingline too. I would bet that both our 2nd and 3rd lines would get around 70 goals, and thats great. If our first can get like 80 (30+20+30) we are on pair with the best.

We would IMO be a little short in the top end, its uncertain if we got thoose extra game winners. But at the same time, there are some potential for players to step up in that aspect, Hossa, Callahan, Avery and Prucha, all 4 IMO got potential to have big years. Like Prucha had last season.

Ola 03-22-2007 12:29 PM

Pretty interesting to see too that two of the teams who have a extreme shutdown line is among the top 4 in the league, not many teams have thoose anymore. Detroit got a greatone with Franzen and Draper, and aren't much behind the top 4.

True Blue Bleed Blue 03-22-2007 03:17 PM

Really did do it all last night. Hitting, scoring, crashing the net, etc. I love that whole line baby

Nemchinov13 03-22-2007 04:32 PM

Ola,

great research. I haven't been following the game lately as intensly as, say 5 years ago, but one thing that has stricken me from your post was Anaheim. The Ranger fans complain about lack of a "1st line center" or lack of a "2nd line center" but look at Anaheim - can anyone call Andy MacDonald as a prototypical 1st line center? Is Ryan Getzlaf a great 2nd line center?

Take a look at NJ - Zajac is their 2nd line center (yes, he is a rookie, but that's not the only advantage Devils organization has over ours). Is Zajac that much better than Avery?

We all clamour for Drury to be signed in the off season. Avery is younger than Drury. Could it be possible for Avery to be better than Drury? I don't think Avery has ever gotten a chance to play with a talent such as Shanahan until now, while Drury spent most of his NHL life on offensive teams such as Colorado and Buffalo, playing with offensive players in offensive situations. I don't know. But I think our priority in the off season to lock up Avery.

Ola 03-22-2007 05:23 PM

Nemchinov- Yeah, and look at Anaheim's checking line, playing a ton for them, thoose guys aren't that much ahead of Betts, and Niedermayer and Pahlsson aren't that shabby talent wise.

Edge 03-25-2007 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ola (Post 8606980)
Nemchinov- Yeah, and look at Anaheim's checking line, playing a ton for them, thoose guys aren't that much ahead of Betts, and Niedermayer and Pahlsson aren't that shabby talent wise.

You have to be careful with just going off points Ola.

I get the point that you're trying to make but the problem is that our third line has points boosted by playing with guys on higher lines, not by playing together as a third line this season.

That's kind of the problem with comparing them to any of those teams. Cullen without Shanahan takes a big hit, as does Prucha without his second line chances.

The other problem is that those lines, though third line have also been going up first and second lines VERY frequently because they are so balances. You put our lines in that situation and this team is in trouble.

So I get what you're trying to do, I just think it goes more beyond the numbers. It includes their ability to wear team's down, balance their efforts and compliment each other. Right now the Rangers scoring isn't balanced. The lines we're quoting are HIGHLY impacted by two players - Jagr and Getzlaf. Shut them down and you shut down the offense because the third line isn't going to score (as said their number aren't inflated by chances on higher lines).

And that is the reason those teams are amongst the top 4 and the Rangers have been struggling to make the playoffs.

I think ideally you need a 70-point center to build a team, but you can get away with it if you have a guy who is complimented by his linemates. Sean Avery is good, but even with linemates 16 goals and 30 some odd points is pushing for a second line center.

Avery is a good player, but I also know how this board tends to raise the bar on good players and set them up to disappoint.

Fletch 03-25-2007 08:16 AM

If Nylander is resigned...
 
and noone is signed as a UFA over the Summer, then perhaps Avery is a decent fall-back option for the role, but he may not be ideal. I actually think second or third line left winger is a great role for him.

EDIT: reason being, I think you may want a little bit better playmaker. The goals are nice (although many have been scored as a winger), but ideally you may want someone feeding Avery and not vice versa.


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