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Guy Caballero 12-21-2003 07:51 AM

Bouillon poll
 
We've gone over this topic in various threads, but I'm interested in seeing some numbers--it's often difficult to gague the fans' general feelings towards a player sometimes, since the people on either side of an issue tend to argue so loudly.

montreal 12-21-2003 07:59 AM

It's not really fair, cause he's coming off a bad game and memories can be short. That said I am not much of a Bouillon fan. I'd rather see Beauchemin get a shot over him, but that's just me. Bouillon has done an ok job, except the last few games I feel he's been out of position at times and has trouble clearing the crease. If Rivet and Quintal would play half as hard as Bouillon does, we'd have a Defense with grit and heart.


Sorry guys but I look forward to the days when Bouillon Quintal Dackell Perreault Juneau Audette are replaced by more skilled players.


And call up Ward already Damn it!

Thomas 12-21-2003 08:02 AM

I don't care if he drops the gloves or plays with heart, hes got limited skill and size and is useless on our blueline. Why a 28 year old journey man is still playing on our D when we have some good young guys who have been sent down and/or benched is beyond me. The recent play of Souray, Rivet becoming more physical and the addition of Komisarek into the line up have made Francis' role unimportant to this team.

In the few games Hainsey has played in this year he was on the ice for only one goal against, and was on the ice for at least 3 goals for (having scored one of them, and assisted on one). Bouillon is even getting more icetime than Markov, our top defenseman for the future. We have a very good young defensive core in Markov, Hainsey and Komisarek but we arent letting them play because CJ prefers a talentless Bouillon as our 4th dman.

Guy Caballero 12-21-2003 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by montreal
It's not really fair, cause he's coming off a bad game and memories can be short.

Yes, but I think most people here have formed an opinion about him already. It wasn't the quality of last night's performance that really has me concerned, it was the quantity. I got to thinking, "Should the Habs, if they want to take that next step, really be playing a guy like Bouillon for 20+ minutes a game?"

Thomas 12-21-2003 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by montreal
It's not really fair, cause he's coming off a bad game and memories can be short.

And call up Ward already Damn it!

I think his bad play goes back to the Calgary game, maybe even before. Last nights game just amplified the feeling. His heart and physical play doesnt impress me. I dont think he has the right motivation behind dropping the gloves, its a reaction mechanism because if he fights, he will most likely keep his job. He takes himself out of the play to make his checks, but they dont result in anything except maybe slowing down the player a bit, but it still allows the player to get around him when Bouillon backs off.

I agree on the Ward part however, we need some more size and finish in the line up. Hopefully we see Audette go down again and Ward called up.

Minos 12-21-2003 09:51 AM

I think he's a usefull depth defenseman who's being misused by the coach. With limited ice time/responsibilities he can be a 'safe' player to put on the ice with the main defensemen catch their breath. When he's put into critical situations, he often panics and makes mistakes - but its the coach's job to realize that and to not put he player in that position (ie PP, PK or the last 2 minutes of the game).

Mike8 12-21-2003 10:05 AM

I share Minos' sentiments regarding Bouillon.

I think he has a place on this team. I don't think it's a coincidence that Rivet's game has improved and become more physical after being paired with Bouillon. Bouillon is a good skater and can make good decisions when jumping into the play. He's a spirited, feisty player that will drop the gloves for teammates, make momentum-changing hits, and generally be a player that opponents don't enjoy facing. Who likes being drilled by a guy half your size, who's also willing to drop the gloves and embarrass you?

With that said, Bouillon's seen his role expand far too much. He's now seeing his faults being exposed more, and I don't think he has the ability to play more than 15-16 minutes a night on a consistent basis. Not just talent-wise, but his game is all about intensity, and reckless abandon, that combined with his lack of size leads me to believe his body just can't take too many minutes.

Bouillon is exposed down low. He is outmuscled in the crease. He can be prone to making bad decisions with the puck and sometimes putting himself out of position to make hits. These would all be minimalized if his ice time was slated as a number six defenseman.

The bottom line is this: Bouillon is one of three additions who have made this current Hab team a harder working club with more intensity, consistency, grit and determination (two others being Souray and Begin). I like the grit he's brought. I like that he'll drop the gloves on a dime to protect his goalie or teammate.

I think he's deserving of playing more than Hainsey, and that Hainsey has some significant fundamental flaws in his game that need to be worked on in the minors. I wouldn't like to see someone like Dykhuis, who strikes me as an individual in a team-game and seemingly has his head out of the game at some points, play ahead of Bouillon. It's a numbers game for Bouillon, and this time in his favour. There's no one deserving of playing ahead of him. Once Hainsey develops a bit more, he can split time with Bouillon. In the meantime, keep Bouillon where he is, minimize his time on ice and in key situations, and he'll be a fine depth defenseman.

Corey 12-21-2003 10:06 AM

He's a 7th D/utility player who's been used as a regular. Too bad Hainsey hasn't earned a regular position. The situation will only get worse next season, assuming Q retires. Gainey simply must sign or trade for another competent D.

Habsolution 12-21-2003 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike8
...

My thoughts exactly ! I couldn't have said it better.

Brisebois can't come back soon enough.

#44_delivers 12-21-2003 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corey
He's a 7th D/utility player who's been used as a regular. Too bad Hainsey hasn't earned a regular position. The situation will only get worse next season, assuming Q retires. Gainey simply must sign or trade for another competent D.

agreed %100
but cj has a thing for francis, putting him in key situations in a game shows it, but when patrice comes back francis will see less time.

zurg999 12-21-2003 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike8
The bottom line is this: Bouillon is one of three additions who have made this current Hab team a harder working club with more intensity, consistency, grit and determination (two others being Souray and Begin). I like the grit he's brought. I like that he'll drop the gloves on a dime to protect his goalie or teammate.

I think he's deserving of playing more than Hainsey, and that Hainsey has some significant fundamental flaws in his game that need to be worked on in the minors. I wouldn't like to see someone like Dykhuis, who strikes me as an individual in a team-game and seemingly has his head out of the game at some points, play ahead of Bouillon. It's a numbers game for Bouillon, and this time in his favour. There's no one deserving of playing ahead of him. Once Hainsey develops a bit more, he can split time with Bouillon. In the meantime, keep Bouillon where he is, minimize his time on ice and in key situations, and he'll be a fine depth defenseman.

Ditto, I was thinking along much the same lines.

I think Boullion is in a no win situation. No matter how much he does to help this team, his mistakes will be amplified because of his size and the fact that we have Hainsey in the wings. This is true agian last night, as any defenseman could have missed the coverage on Tucker.

My impression from watching him a little more closely these last few games are as follows:
Pros:
Excellent foot speed and positioning, wins most of his battles by getting himself between the opposing player and the puck/net.
Excellent decision making with the puck.
Cons:
When he does lose a step against a bigger forward along the boards, he is hard pressed to make up for it.

I still find a lot of the problems in our own end are resulting from our top two lines. The forwards down low are not able to win the little battles along the boards. Our one defenseman working behind the net can usually effectively pin down their forward. It's then the centre and whichever winger is working the boards that either can't gain possession or end up coughing it up.

I too wish we had 5 more defensemen like Souray, but our depth isn't bad, even with Boullion holding a lineup spot.

Habsaku 12-21-2003 11:44 AM

I agree with Mike8, but also with Montreal. I'd like to see Beauchemin given a chance, I think he can do anything that Bouillon can but he's much stronger and bigger(well about 6', 210 pounds).

On the other hand, he is a hard worker on a team that doesn't have many. His energy often gets picked up by his teammates who follow his example. Just look at Begin for example, remember how good Dackell was with him and Sundstrom was even better. I'd keep Bouillon but reduce his ice time drastically and think about calling Beachemin up.
The thing tahts clear to me is that Bouillon cannot face the best and strongest players in the league, he gets pushed around too easily.

rocketlives 12-21-2003 12:22 PM

I thought the Habs had learnt their lesson with JJ Daigneault. There is no place in the NHL for a small defenseman. Bouillon can't contain the big centers of the league and he ends up backing up into his own goaltender or deflecting pucks into his own net.

He should be kept only as a sub 7th dmen, if we wish to carry one. Our regular sixth defenseman on the left side should be Hainsey, Dykhouse or Beauchemin, not Bouillon. ;)

Mike8 12-21-2003 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketlives
I thought the Habs had learnt their lesson with JJ Daigneault. There is no place in the NHL for a small defenseman. Bouillon can't contain the big centers of the league and he ends up backing up into his own goaltender or deflecting pucks into his own net.

He should be kept only as a sub 7th dmen, if we wish to carry one. Our regular sixth defenseman on the left side should be Hainsey, Dykhouse or Beauchemin, not Bouillon. ;)

I find this to be a very short sighted view of things. Bouillon is the same weight as Rafalski, but a couple inches shorter. He's heavier than the best defenseman in the NHL (Lidstrom), and a couple inches shorter. That means he's thicker, and has more muscle mass than the both of them, yet he's too small for the NHL? Muscle mass is what counts, not height. Traverse is taller than most NHL players yet he's as ineffective physically as any player in the league.

Bouillon's only deflected one puck into Montreal's net, and that was when he was stopping a cross ice pass, so your comments there are unfounded.

tinyzombies 12-21-2003 01:43 PM

I'm sort of shocked by this backlash against Bouillon. What goals are we blaming him for? I have been a proponent of having Hainsey in the lineup, but then again I kind of like that he's in the minors. Maybe his head will get screwed on right. He's our long-term, and he has to develop that bedrock character now.

But Bouillon seems like a dynamic spark to me on the blueline. One goal was Zednik's fault for chasing the man he was half-heartedly backchecking behind the net, leaving Belak open at the point.

The other goals, I dunno. I don't remember being upset at Bouillon in this game whatsoever, so I don't get it.

Munchausen 12-21-2003 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike8
With that said, Bouillon's seen his role expand far too much. He's now seeing his faults being exposed more, and I don't think he has the ability to play more than 15-16 minutes a night on a consistent basis. Not just talent-wise, but his game is all about intensity, and reckless abandon, that combined with his lack of size leads me to believe his body just can't take too many minutes.

This is a very good point. I was very impressed by Bouillon during training camp and was happy with his play when he was in a platoon with Hainsey but since Hainsey left, Bouillon has been used more and more and yet more to the point that now he's seeing top-4 Dman minutes and has seemed to slow down consistently since a few weeks. He seems to be wearing down and this is quite normal as he's usually a fire ball on the ice.

There's two other elite Dmen on the left side, Souray and Markov. Raise their minutes and diminish Bouillon's for crying out loud. Playing Souray and Markov in most situations and allowing Bouillon to condense his energy into 15 minutes of well timed shifts would solve the problem IMO. No need to bring back Hainsey if they feel he's not ready, but Markov needs to play more to get his groove back and is head and shoulder ahead of Bouillon talent wise. Frankie won't put up any kind of numbers even if you play him 30 minutes a game and will just wear down and become more prone to injuries and mistakes.

IMO Bouillon should serve the same kind of purpose Begin was, which is an energy role. He cannot sustain that rythm over the course of 82 games, 21-22 minutes a game. I think we'll see his play deteriorate much more if his ice time isn't adjusted to his capacities. There's just so far heart can bring you.

Howie Morenz 12-21-2003 03:12 PM

He isn't in our future plans and he's taking valuable learning and playing time away from Hainsey and Beauchemin. :mad:

doc lafleur 12-21-2003 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howie Morenz
He isn't in our future plans and he's taking valuable learning and playing time away from Hainsey and Beauchemin. :mad:

I guess if he is not in your future plan's we should send him down with, Quintal, Juneau, Dackell, Sundstrom, Perreault, Audette, did I forget anybody? :dunno:

goalchenyuk 12-21-2003 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchausen
This is a very good point. I was very impressed by Bouillon during training camp and was happy with his play when he was in a platoon with Hainsey but since Hainsey left, Bouillon has been used more and more and yet more to the point that now he's seeing top-4 Dman minutes and has seemed to slow down consistently since a few weeks. He seems to be wearing down and this is quite normal as he's usually a fire ball on the ice.

.

the main problem is more Rivest than Bouillon ,When Markov played wioth him , he was playing poorly and slowly have loose his confidence .Bouillon was not bad at all at that time , so Julien 've decided to play him with Rivest .

Since that time , Rivest is playing a better hockey , and i think that Bouillon is not a stranger to that ;his intensity is reflecting the game of Rivest .

But if Bouillon help Rivest to find his game ,we can't say the same from rivest about Bouillon .And as you said before , + 20 minutes minutes is too much for him ;and by the way , we also have to considere that Bouillon is adjusting his play for the NHL .May be he's 28 , but he until now he was a AHL player , so , it 's normal for him to makes mistakes sometime...

Medicine Twin 12-21-2003 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doc lafleur
I guess if he is not in your future plan's we should send him down with, Quintal, Juneau, Dackell, Sundstrom, Perreault, Audette, did I forget anybody? :dunno:

As for Bouillon, I totally agree with Mike8 on this one. Except that I think Hainsey has played fine when called up.

What I continue to have a problem with, though it's besides the point, is how people continue to dump on Sundstrom. Yes he had a rough first couple weeks of the season... but he's played excellent for us ever since. You don't have to look much further than our PK to see this. Get over it already. Sunny should be here for a few more years yet.

Munchausen 12-21-2003 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medicine Twin
Get over it already. Sunny should be here for a few more years yet.

Not a 2M per he's not. That's some serious overpaying for a 3rd line checker who isn't even physical. If he accepts to take a salary cut, I could see it. If he doesn't however, I don't think BG will be interested. Any way you look at it, I don't see Gainey making the qualifying offer which would end up at around 2.2M. Way too much for Sundstrom's contribution.

Habs 12-21-2003 09:12 PM

Blah... I have no use for the guy, unless it's on an emergency basis.
Found a picture of him and Quintal though:


http://www.lookalikesbychar.com/photos/fantasyisl2.jpeg

Howie Morenz 12-22-2003 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habs
Blah... I have no use for the guy, unless it's on an emergency basis.
Found a picture of him and Quintal though:


http://www.lookalikesbychar.com/photos/fantasyisl2.jpeg


:lol:

RichardZednik#20 12-22-2003 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchausen
Not a 2M per he's not. That's some serious overpaying for a 3rd line checker who isn't even physical. If he accepts to take a salary cut, I could see it. If he doesn't however, I don't think BG will be interested. Any way you look at it, I don't see Gainey making the qualifying offer which would end up at around 2.2M. Way too much for Sundstrom's contribution.

Sundstrom is a 1.2 to 1.4 mil$ NHL player right now. He wins 1.9 with SJ paying 25% witch means MTL pay him around 1.3 and it's OK. At 1.3 mil$, I would sign him for 2 years.

Joe Maximum 12-22-2003 07:49 AM

Many of you guys seem sold on hainsey... the guy lacks maturity. If we call him up he will spend more time clubbling than actually training. There's a reason Gainey sent him down saying he wasn't as mature as he thought he was, the guy enjoys the montreal nightlife a bit too much...


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