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-   -   Lowe is actually helping small market teams (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=405177)

PhoenixDog 07-27-2007 01:46 AM

Lowe is actually helping small market teams
 
Despite how things look Kevin Lowe is actually helping the small market teams out..although he is driving up salaries for RFA's, on the flip side, this will probably result in lower salaries for UFA'a.

Now that their is linkage between revenues and salaries one man can't possibly drive up payrolls..this will just force teams to split the pie differently.

this definitely adds another element to the off season..gotta love the new NHL. Just goes to prove that this whole non sense of a gentlemans agreement was mythical and non-existant.

GM's still have choice..if they think the player is worth it, then match..If they think the offer is over payment, walk away and take the picks and let someone else take the hit on the bad contract.

after years and years of seeing the oilers roster get pillaged i think this is justice. after signing/trading for Pitkanen, Souray, Vanek & Penner i think this shows the NHL that edmonton can't be that bad of a place to play..

hardcore_fan 07-27-2007 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anybodybutcalgary (Post 10033885)
after years and years of seeing the oilers roster get pillaged i think this is justice. after signing/trading for Pitkanen, Souray, Vanek & Penner i think this shows the NHL that edmonton can't be that bad of a place to play..

Umm, only two of those players are Oilers at the moment.I just don't see how this redistribution from RFA to UFA (which what Oilers fans seem to saying this about) helps small markets teams including Edmonton.Now it just means that guys like JF Jaques can tell Lowe they want $4,5 mil as soon as they crack 40 pts.How does driving up the price of young what should be cheap talent help a team like Edmonton except in the VERY short term?

s7ark 07-27-2007 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardcore_fan (Post 10033921)
Umm, only two of those players are Oilers at the moment.I just don't see how this redistribution from RFA to UFA (which what Oilers fans seem to saying this about) helps small markets teams including Edmonton.Now it just means that guys like JF Jaques can tell Lowe they want $4,5 mil as soon as they crack 40 pts.How does driving up the price of young what should be cheap talent help a team like Edmonton except in the VERY short term?

If Jacques scores 29G and a GM offers him the contract, then we'll worry about it.

What he is doing, is forcing teams that hoard UFAs every summer (TO, NYR, Det. Col. etc.) to spend more to keep their talented youngsters. That forces them closer to the cap so they can't sign all the UFAs they want. This opens up the UFA market to teams (like Edmonton) that have traditionally had problems signing big name UFAs.

thenextone 07-27-2007 01:58 AM

Linkage only takes place after a contract is signed, not before.

Since the cap is where it is, players will expect salaries as long as GMs will pay them.

At the end of the season, if the expenses are more than 54%, the players as a collective will have to pay back to the owners.

Even if Dustin Penner signs a deal 100% over his market value, the money he *might* have to give back in escrow is probably at most 12%. Meaning he still comes out on top. This is because the escrow is evenly shared by ALL players, even the ones who are UNDERPAID.

PhoenixDog 07-27-2007 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardcore_fan (Post 10033921)
Umm, only two of those players are Oilers at the moment.I just don't see how this redistribution from RFA to UFA (which what Oilers fans seem to saying this about) helps small markets teams including Edmonton.Now it just means that guys like JF Jaques can tell Lowe they want $4,5 mil as soon as they crack 40 pts.How does driving up the price of young what should be cheap talent help a team like Edmonton except in the VERY short term?

agreed only 2 of thos players are oilers, but by signing an offer sheet the other 2 have agreed to play in edmonton as well if the offer is not matched.


the redistribution will help lower costs on UFA's, thus giving the small market teams a fighting chance to sign these players for free without having to give up picks, players or prospects, an advantage that the rangers, flyers, avalanche, etc have right now.

voxel 07-27-2007 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardcore_fan (Post 10033921)
Now it just means that guys like JF Jaques can tell Lowe they want $4,5 mil as soon as they crack 40 pts.How does driving up the price of young what should be cheap talent help a team like Edmonton except in the VERY short term?

Who's going to pay JFJ - $4.5M? Many teams that could pay that are capped... which means they should have spent less on elder UFAs.

JFJ can ask for $4.5M and if he gets it let him walk for the picks because we'll have Penner ;-)

"driving up the price of young" is a good thing as is "driving down the price of elder UFAs" - the cap makes sure this has to happen unless revenues go skyrocketing to some insane level.

hardcore_fan 07-27-2007 02:03 AM

I don't think they agreed to play in Edmonton as much as agreed to use Edmontons offer as leverage.That is the true problem.No matter how salaries are distrubuted Edmonton will still be Edmonton.Unless you go Springfeild and throw the town on trucks to move it that's something that won't change.

voxel 07-27-2007 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardcore_fan (Post 10033964)
I don't think they agreed to play in Edmonton as much as agreed to use Edmontons offer as leverage.

Then why even sign? Just take the offer sheet to your GM and say - here's what I got... match it! (or as close to it).

hardcore_fan 07-27-2007 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by voxel (Post 10033956)
Who's going to pay JFJ - $4.5M? Many teams that could pay that are capped... which means they should have spent less on elder UFAs.

JFJ can ask for $4.5M and if he gets it let him walk for the picks because we'll have Penner ;-)

"driving up the price of young" is a good thing as is "driving down the price of elder UFAs" - the cap makes sure this has to happen unless revenues go skyrocketing to some insane level.

Who's to say the UFAs even having the market drive salaries down still just won't go to the large markets for even less just for quality of life reasons?This whole redistribution stuff sounds more like pablum than an actuality.

hardcore_fan 07-27-2007 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by voxel (Post 10033973)
Then why even sign? Just take the offer sheet to your GM and say - here's what I got... match it! (or as close to it).

Because signing it guarantees you'll get the cash no matter what.Seems simple no?

JonQuixote 07-27-2007 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardcore_fan (Post 10033921)
Umm, only two of those players are Oilers at the moment.I just don't see how this redistribution from RFA to UFA (which what Oilers fans seem to saying this about) helps small markets teams including Edmonton.Now it just means that guys like JF Jaques can tell Lowe they want $4,5 mil as soon as they crack 40 pts.How does driving up the price of young what should be cheap talent help a team like Edmonton except in the VERY short term?

Actually, because Edmonton does have a lot of young players, it might hurt them in the short term. But it will probably help them in the long term.

If there are loads of teams with good young players and lots of cap space, in a market where RFAs have no leverage, and cap space is equal, a city like Edmonton just won't be able to compete with cities where the weather is gorgeous or the travel is very light. If the money is the same, why wouldn't you choose to live in Tampa or New York? I love Edmonton, but c'mon... if I can make 7 million a year anywhere, I'll pick Phoenix or Anaheim.

But if the price is driven up on RFAs, then cap space is more of a commodity. Players therefore may be more inclined to follow money. And if that's the case, then it's a more level playing field - because there will be years where the Oilers (or Flames or Sens or Sabres or whomever) can offer more money to the top free agents, enough that it's a difference maker.

If Edmonton can compete financially with teams, then it makes perfect sense for them to make financial incentive as much of a factor as possible. Because, let's face it, we can't compete with the Rangers' nightlife, the Leafs' travel, and the Phoenix weather. So you sign the players where you can offer that financial incentive, and you hopefully either get them or you change the market dynamics to something more favorable.

Let's face it, the current dynamics weren't working for the Oilers. And, to be honest, the 'unwritten code', it wasn't really fair to the players either.

matthew94 07-27-2007 02:10 AM

Quote:

Just goes to prove that this whole non sense of a gentlemans agreement was mythical and non-existant.
No, it actually just proves that 1 or 2 guys stopped being gentleman! :)

JonQuixote 07-27-2007 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardcore_fan (Post 10033974)
Who's to say the UFAs even having the market drive salaries down still just won't go to the large markets for even less just for quality of life reasons?This whole redistribution stuff sounds more like pablum than an actuality.

Maybe they will. I'm sure some will. There's nothing that can be done about those.

But comments about how excited he was to play in Edmonton aside, Souray signed here because we gave him the best contract he was offered. There will always be players who follow the cash. God bless'em.

State of Hockey 07-27-2007 02:15 AM

The chance of this lowering UFA salaries is virtually zero.

hardcore_fan 07-27-2007 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonQuixote (Post 10033990)
Actually, because Edmonton does have a lot of young players, it might hurt them in the short term. But it will probably help them in the long term.

If there are loads of teams with good young players and lots of cap space, in a market where RFAs have no leverage, and cap space is equal, a city like Edmonton just won't be able to compete with cities where the weather is gorgeous or the travel is very light. If the money is the same, why wouldn't you choose to live in Tampa or New York? I love Edmonton, but c'mon... if I can make 7 million a year anywhere, I'll pick Phoenix or Anaheim.

But if the price is driven up on RFAs, then cap space is more of a commodity. Players therefore may be more inclined to follow money. And if that's the case, then it's a more level playing field - because there will be years where the Oilers (or Flames or Sens or Sabres or whomever) can offer more money to the top free agents, enough that it's a difference maker.

If Edmonton can compete financially with teams, then it makes perfect sense for them to make financial incentive as much of a factor as possible. Because, let's face it, we can't compete with the Rangers' nightlife, the Leafs' travel, and the Phoenix weather. So you sign the players where you can offer that financial incentive, and you hopefully either get them or you change the market dynamics to something more favorable.

Let's face it, the current dynamics weren't working for the Oilers. And, to be honest, the 'unwritten code', it wasn't really fair to the players either.

That's just it, they dynamics may not be working now but if this theory, and that's what it is doesn't work then teams like Edmonton are even further up the creek with less chance of finding a paddle than before.I can see the thought process behind these moves.The thing is Lowe could be either moving the Oilers further ahead at an accelerated pace or completely screwing them.I guess it would just make me uneasy if it were my GM.Bold if it does work but franchise killing if it backfires.

Killer Sharkz 07-27-2007 02:18 AM

Let's face it, this was going to happen at some point. If it wasn't Lowe it would have been someone else. Yes there was kind of a gentlemens agreement if you will, but eventually the pressure to win and put out a good team will out weigh the agreement. I promise you all this will become a regular strategy among pretty much all of the GM's. Maybe next year maybe 5 years from now all of the GM's will being doing it and all of the people complaining about Lowe doing it will complain because their GM is not doing it. Or not doing it enough. It is just the face of the new NHL. The fact of the matter is most of the teams that went out and spent huge money this year will have lots of problems in the near future signing their own young talent, with or without offer sheets. Sure teams like the Rangers should have a better team this year, but over the next couple of years they are going to watch as their young talent walks away. Mark my words, this will happen more and more starting next year! The GM's that are smart are making sure they dont spend up to the cap to prevent these kind of things from happening to them in the future. You are also going to see more and more teams trying to sign their young talent earlier and earlier to longer and longer contracts so they dont have to go through these sorts of situations. The NHL is just evolving in its new state and these are just signs of things to come!

hardcore_fan 07-27-2007 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonQuixote (Post 10034003)
But comments about how excited he was to play in Edmonton aside, Souray signed here because we gave him the best contract he was offered. There will always be players who follow the cash. God bless'em.

I guess the phrase greed is good can work out for the best sometimes.:)

smackdaddy 07-27-2007 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardcore_fan (Post 10033964)
I don't think they agreed to play in Edmonton as much as agreed to use Edmontons offer as leverage.That is the true problem.No matter how salaries are distrubuted Edmonton will still be Edmonton.Unless you go Springfeild and throw the town on trucks to move it that's something that won't change.

Leverage, yeah right dude. Thats a pretty bold hand to play if I was an RFA. Personally, my least favorite team to ever play in right now would be either Toronto or Anaheim. If either of them offered me almost a 1000% raise to play there, and I accepted it under the tactic that I was going to use them as leverage, it would be the stupidest move ever made in pro sports next to Kariya and wherever he's went/goes. Not only do I risk going to the place I absolutely hate, but I also give up 5 years of my life to it. And no, crying foul and demanding a trade will not work with this contract, because I'm no Chris Pronger.

hardcore_fan 07-27-2007 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smackdaddy (Post 10034151)
Leverage, yeah right dude. Thats a pretty bold hand to play if I was an RFA. Personally, my least favorite team to ever play in right now would be either Toronto or Anaheim. If either of them offered me almost a 1000% raise to play there, and I accepted it under the tactic that I was going to use them as leverage, it would be the stupidest move ever made in pro sports next to Kariya and wherever he's went/goes. Not only do I risk going to the place I absolutely hate, but I also give up 5 years of my life to it. And no, crying foul and demanding a trade will not work with this contract, because I'm no Chris Pronger.

And why exactly is what you would do relevant to this in any way, shape or form?It isn't that they're going somewhere they "hate".I doubt any of them have some personal vendetta against Edmonton.What I'm saying is that regardless of the team that gives the offer sheet, signing it guarantees they'll make that amount.

qwerty 07-27-2007 03:46 AM

This doesn't help small market teams at all. All this does is push unproven and possible flash-in-the-pan players salaries up; which could possibly mean more "bad" contracts for teams to take on (i.e Zherdev).

High end proven superstar players will get their money and the only losers here will be fringe second liners who don't have first line natural talent. Seeing as they're not impact players, they'll be signed in late July and will only receive a fraction of a superstar player; that's the way I see it happening.

ThatOneGuy* 07-27-2007 04:15 AM

Lowe is insane and Oiler nation is following him right down the toilet. Edmonton is officially the trashbin of the NHL. No one wants to play there and the only way the will sign as a free agent is if you offer a hell of alot more than anyone else. All this does is make NHL parody even worse. Now teams won't even be able to keep their stars for more than three years. Why even have a draft or develope players if some terrible team like the Oilers is gonna steal them away while destroying the cap in the process.

Ola 07-27-2007 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anybodybutcalgary (Post 10033885)
Despite how things look Kevin Lowe is actually helping the small market teams out..although he is driving up salaries for RFA's, on the flip side, this will probably result in lower salaries for UFA'a.

Now that their is linkage between revenues and salaries one man can't possibly drive up payrolls..this will just force teams to split the pie differently.

this definitely adds another element to the off season..gotta love the new NHL. Just goes to prove that this whole non sense of a gentlemans agreement was mythical and non-existant.

GM's still have choice..if they think the player is worth it, then match..If they think the offer is over payment, walk away and take the picks and let someone else take the hit on the bad contract.

after years and years of seeing the oilers roster get pillaged i think this is justice. after signing/trading for Pitkanen, Souray, Vanek & Penner i think this shows the NHL that edmonton can't be that bad of a place to play..

Yeah, the Edmonton Oilers is god sent for everyone and the NYR destroyed the game, we get the point.

danaluvsthekings 07-27-2007 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anybodybutcalgary (Post 10033885)
After signing/trading for Pitkanen, Souray, Vanek & Penner i think this shows the NHL that edmonton can't be that bad of a place to play..

Pitkanen had no choice, he was traded to Edmonton whether he liked it or not.

I don't think this shows the rest of the NHL that Edmonton is or isn't a bad place to play, I think it shows that if you throw enough money at a player, he's going to be willing to take it.

Vanek wasn't going to get an average of $7.14 mil per season from Buffalo, perhaps something like 5 years, $25 mil or so from the Sabres. Vanek would have had to be a complete moron to turn down an extra $25 or so million.

As for Penner, Burke probably thought he was going to be able to sign him for something around $3 mil per season. If Anaheim had been offered a 5 year deal for about $15 mil, Penner would have been turning down an additional $6.5 mil over the life of the deal. That's a ton of money when Penner was coming off a deal at or near the league minimum.

Souray is a nice offensive defenseman and all, but he's horrible defensively. If Souray really wanted to play with the Oilers and saw the Oilers as his first choice, isn't it likely he would have signed with Edmonton sooner than 12 days after becoming a free agent? To an outsider it looked like Souray had suitors but as free agency developed, other teams spent their money on other players (Stuart, Rafalski, Schneider, Hannan, Preissing, Hamrlik to name a few defenseman that got either big contracts or contracts from teams supposedly interested in Souray) leaving Souray scrambling to take the biggest offer that was still out there.

If Kevin Lowe's theory is to drive up prices on RFAs so teams have less money to spend on UFAs so Lowe can swoop in and sign the unrestricted free agents, I don't necessarily know that it's going to work. Players have shown repeatedly that they will take less money to play in a more desirable market. Every year around the free agency period there always are stories about players that turn down bigger offers from team X to sign a lower offer from team Y (like LA supposedly offered Chara more money than Boston last summer). If Lowe's plan is to overpay free agents to make up for whatever reasons players find Edmonton as a place that they don't want to play, aren't Oilers fans worried that Lowe's plan could end up attracting the players that are more concerned with a fat paycheck than winning?

Soundwave 07-27-2007 04:20 AM

Edmonton isn't a small market team NHL team anymore.

The novelty of the NHL wore off in the US a while ago, and it will get worse for a lot of US markets in the future. Just because they have a bigger population base doesn't mean they have even 1/10th of the hockey fanbase any Canadian city would. On top of the fact that Edmonton and the surrounding areas are experincing a monsterous population boom, that potential fanbase grows larger by the month.

After Katz buys the Oilers or gets on the ownership board, the small market thing will really be dead and buried because the Oilers will have one of the top 5 wealthiest owners in the league I believe.

Lowe sees a player he wants, deems the price paid acceptable, and is going after them. I think really that's all there is to it. There's not some grand Macchavellian plan to change the RFA/UFA structure.

Laus723 07-27-2007 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwerty (Post 10034298)
This doesn't help small market teams at all. All this does is push unproven and possible flash-in-the-pan players salaries up; which could possibly mean more "bad" contracts for teams to take on (i.e Zherdev).

High end proven superstar players will get their money and the only losers here will be fringe second liners who don't have first line natural talent. Seeing as they're not impact players, they'll be signed in late July and will only receive a fraction of a superstar player; that's the way I see it happening.

That's pretty much how I see it. More bad contracts out there, except now to guys who really haven't earned them, instead of to guys who've proved their worth through consistency over the years.

While I can see where this could possibly make teams think twice before offering a Gill-like contract, I don't see where it helps to give the younger guys unearned contracts. In other words, it doesn't seem like this would help make teams more responsible in their spending.


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