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-   -   Tampa/Edmonton proposal (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=42915)

scotchtapejr. 01-11-2004 09:01 AM

Tampa/Edmonton proposal
 
first proposal so dont get critical just yet ;)

To Tampa:

Eric Brewer, Jani Rita, 2004 1st round draft pick.

To Edmonton:

Vincent Lecavalier, 2004 3rd round draft pick.

Uhhh basically a defencemen with 1st paiiring potential for a center with allstar potential who are both no meeting expectations. Jani Rita, another 1st rounder who has a vast amount of potential and a 1st round pick to even it out.

Extra draft picks or role players could be added.... Chimera and/or Laraque?

hunter orange 01-11-2004 02:27 PM

Can't imagine Edmonton being able to swing that one without a d-man coming back. They're way to thin in the back as it is. Maybe

Brewer, Rita, Laraque, 1st rounder ----- for ----- Lecavalier, Sarich

kacz 01-11-2004 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter orange
Can't imagine Edmonton being able to swing that one without a d-man coming back. They're way to thin in the back as it is. Maybe

Brewer, Rita, Laraque, 1st rounder ----- for ----- Lecavalier, Sarich

Can't see Lowe making a blockbuster like that...

joeminus 01-11-2004 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter orange
Can't imagine Edmonton being able to swing that one without a d-man coming back. They're way to thin in the back as it is. Maybe

Brewer, Rita, Laraque, 1st rounder ----- for ----- Lecavalier, Sarich

No way in hell Tampa trades either one of those guys, especially not for a package like that. C'mon, people.

Oilers Hockey 01-11-2004 06:46 PM

Fans in Edmonton would revolt if they trade a young budding future #1 Defenceman for a player with authority issues and more propects.

dem 01-11-2004 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hemskyfan
Fans in Edmonton would revolt if they trade a young budding future #1 Defenceman for a player with authority issues and more propects.

Speak for yourself. :p If I had the chance to grab Lecavalier id be all over it.

Oilers Hockey 01-11-2004 06:55 PM

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see him in an Oil jersey, and I suppose Brewer has very high value right now, but trading him would be a mistake. Defence is our achilles heel and Brewer is too valuable because he is playing like a monster.

Habs Scout 01-11-2004 07:04 PM

Get real guys.

TB is not trading Lecavlier for Brewer. The extra picks, depth players, etc. mean very little in a deal like this.

Edmonton would jump all over the deal that this thread is about. Needs of the teams are not an issue in such a deal. Even if they were, Edmonton could easily ship Lecavlier out again to pick up a true stud dman.

Every player is tradeable, the only issue is the value being exchanged in the deal. Brewer and company are not even close to being acceptable.
I am sure that any GM would back me up on this.

Bolthed 01-12-2004 09:41 AM

If Brewer is still a "young, budding No.1 defenseman" then why are his numbers going down to crapland?

scotchtapejr. 01-12-2004 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolthed
If Brewer is still a "young, budding No.1 defenseman" then why are his numbers going down to crapland?

sorry, didnt realize Lecavalier was tearing it up.

jumptheshark 01-12-2004 10:09 AM

I see the problem being three fold

1)Depending how you look at Brewer and Vince L--both are having a baad year---this was supposed to be Vince L break oout year and he fell flat. Either he can not handle pressure or his just is not as good as we all think he is and are basing our ideas of what he should be, on all the hype that fallowed him into the league. I have been to 10 Tampa Bay games this year and he has been invisable and anything but the go to guy that he should be by now. I saw Brewer play our times last year when I was in Vancouver/Calgary and from what I have seen on TV this year he has taken a giant step back. Both players are supposed to be top level prosects and neither one is living up to the hype.

2)That first round draft pick--I assume that it the oilers 1st and not the one they got from Philly. It looks like that pick could be a high lotto pick and the way the oilers are playing and falling quick---that pick could be number one through three. The top three picks are all blue chippers with one STUD standing out big time. I think the oilers are getting ready to throw in the towel and giving up their top d-man and a first rounder for a forme first rounder that is looking more and more like Piere Turgeon does not look that good.

3)Rita---is still a very good prospect(read this site for what it has to say)

In my little opinion, to say that the Oilers would be all over that in a second--is jumping the gun. Sadly, untill Vince L become the go to guy for the TBL and remains an also ran---I think the oilers would be over paying for him.

I realize the jury is still out on Vince L, but I do not see him growing into the superstar he was projected to be and to give up what was suggested for him is a little harsh.

Bolthed 01-13-2004 01:36 AM

My goodness. Take a look at Lecavalier's career numbers before you say such ridiculous things as "this year is supposed to be his breakout year." What the hell was last year (a shade under a point-a-game)? What the hell was 67 points as a 19-year-old??? Or 4 straight seasons of 20+ goals? The truth is that expectations for Lecavalier are extremely high for a reason - he's a great young player. Yes, he's having a down season, but we're only halfway through and I'm sure his numbers stand a much better chance at looking somewhat respectable by season's end than Brewer's.

Look, I'm not saying Brewer isn't a fine young dman. But he has been vastly overrated. He's not a big scorer (never cracked 30 points or double-digit goals), he's not a plus player (only a plus once in 5+ seasons so far). And so I feel I'm reasonably justified in asking why he should be considered a budding young dman.

Lecavalier, OTOH, is an impact forward (and if you look around the NHL, there really aren't a helluva lot of those). He's a year younger than Brewer and has accomplished a lot more. He has been very inconsistent in his career, that's true. But if Vinny were to turn it on in the second half, the first half would be overlooked. If Brewer were to turn it on, he still wouldn't crack 10 goals or 30 points. Case dismissed.

Brewer + Rita + 1st + sweeter just doesn't get the job done. It doesn't equal Lecavalier. But that's just my opinion.

Timmy1973 01-13-2004 05:44 AM

Now that the Oilers have traded Comrie, there is much that the Oilers can offer. Realize that you are proposing a trade for our 'franchise' center. We'd at least have to have a center coming back in any deal.

Mr Sakich 01-13-2004 06:28 AM

i think your franchise centre is richards, not vinny. Look at their ice time in the last 25 games and brad is definately getting the 1st line centre minutes. I have watched vinny 3 times inthe last few weeks because I have this feeling that he may be available. He is really struggling.

Brewer, on the other hand, has been dominant in the last 20 games. he has really turned things around and is the true #1 dman for the oilers. While that may not be a major accomplishment, you should remember that their gaa in the last 20 games is just over 2 and many of the goals were on the penalty kill. The season turnaround happened at the same time as brewer and salo turned thier games around.

Trading a number two centre for a number one dman would not be the worst trade ever made.

Oceanic39* 01-13-2004 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Sakich
Trading a number two centre for a number one dman would not be the worst trade ever made.

Brewer isn't a #1 dman and Lecavalier isn't a #2 center.

Richards is not Tampa's #1 center. You can't throw out that opinion then comment on the deal pointing to that opinion as truth. Richards, with 21 goals in his first year, looked as though he could be a first-line center, but he and his weak shot have regressed into a strong #2 center who's almost nothing more than a playmaker. Lecavalier is worth 30 goals every year and if he were ever given decent linemates consistently, could be a 90 point player. Richards will be lucky to get 20-25 at the rate his shot is diminishing.

Lecavalier is still a franchise center.
Brewer is still a solid young dman with limited offensive upside.

oilers_guy_eddie 01-13-2004 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oceanic39
Lecavalier is worth 30 goals every year

:confused:

Are you speaking in Base-8 math?

FacelessButcher 01-13-2004 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy1973
Now that the Oilers have traded Comrie, there is much that the Oilers can offer. Realize that you are proposing a trade for our 'franchise' center. We'd at least have to have a center coming back in any deal.

Maybe this is the reason your scouting Zhamnov.
------------------------------------------------------------

(not trying to say Smyth is equal to Lecavalier just demonstrating he is not the second coming of Lemieux as some seem to think he is)
Career PPG for Lecavalier= 0.665PPG
Career PPG for Smyth= 0.658PPG
Career PPG for Richards= 0.789PPG
------------------------------------------------------------

Richards average ice-time 2003-04= 20.17min
Richards average ice-time 2002-03= 19.91min
Richards acerage ice-time 2001-02= 19.79min

Lecavalier average ice-time 2003-04= 18.07min
Lecavalier average ice-time 2002-03= 19.51min
Lecavalier average ice-time 2001-02= 17.13min

Sure seems like your coach prefers Richards as the #1 center

Timmy1973 01-13-2004 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FacelessButcher
Maybe this is the reason your scouting Zhamnov.

(not trying to say Smyth is equal to Lecavalier just demonstrating he is not the second coming of Lemieux as some seem to think he is)
Career PPG for Lecavalier= 0.665PPG
Career PPG for Smyth= 0.658PPG
Career PPG for Richards= 0.789PPG

Richards average ice-time 2003-04= 20.17min
Richards average ice-time 2002-03= 19.91min
Richards acerage ice-time 2001-02= 19.79min

Lecavalier average ice-time 2003-04= 18.07min
Lecavalier average ice-time 2002-03= 19.51min
Lecavalier average ice-time 2001-02= 17.13min

Sure seems like your coach prefers Richards as the #1 center

Zhamnov isn't a replacement for Lecavalier. He's ten years older, injury prone and has almost no physical game in him. He's got skills and can do great things with the puck don't get me wrong but how many years does he really have left? As far as Richards goes, wait until playoff time. When the physical play really picks up Brad Richards disappears. Vinny can hold his own, but he does need some linemates to help him out. Rick Dudley tried to deal with Lecavalier; who won that one? If this fued between Tortorella and Vinny continues, Tortorella will not be the coach in Tampa next year. Especially if the Lightning don't make the playoffs. Vinny sells tickets in a market where they need every fan they can get. I don't know how much you can make off a marketing plan centered around Patton want-to-be coach. I know I wouldn't care if I saw a billboard with Tortorella's mug on it.

Mr Sakich 01-13-2004 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oceanic39
Brewer isn't a #1 dman and Lecavalier isn't a #2 center.

Richards is not Tampa's #1 center. You can't throw out that opinion then comment on the deal pointing to that opinion as truth. Richards, with 21 goals in his first year, looked as though he could be a first-line center, but he and his weak shot have regressed into a strong #2 center who's almost nothing more than a playmaker. Lecavalier is worth 30 goals every year and if he were ever given decent linemates consistently, could be a 90 point player. Richards will be lucky to get 20-25 at the rate his shot is diminishing.

Lecavalier is still a franchise center.
Brewer is still a solid young dman with limited offensive upside.

1 actually, brewer is our #1 dman. Yeah, I know it sucks to be us but he is the best we have. He has played in the olympics for the best team ever assembled and he may have led their dmen in goal scoring despite being the youngest, he also may have been to an all-star game or two.

2 Vinny is a true #1 centre, but he isn't your number one centre. I am way too lazy to look it up but he is not getting the ev or pp ice time that brad is getting and I have been following this for the last month. It doesn't suck to be you guys because that is a sweet 1/2 combination.

Peter Griffin 01-13-2004 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Sakich
1 actually, brewer is our #1 dman. Yeah, I know it sucks to be us but he is the best we have. He has played in the olympics for the best team ever assembled and he may have led their dmen in goal scoring despite being the youngest, he also may have been to an all-star game or two.

2 Vinny is a true #1 centre, but he isn't your number one centre. I am way too lazy to look it up but he is not getting the ev or pp ice time that brad is getting and I have been following this for the last month. It doesn't suck to be you guys because that is a sweet 1/2 combination.

Just because Brewer is Edmonton's #1 d-man, that doesn't mean he's worth as much as other team's #1's, players who actually deserve the role. Same goes for Lecavalier in Tampa. He may not be Tampa's #1 center(I disagree), but that doesn't mean his trade value is that of a #2 guy. That's rediculous logic.

elphy101 01-13-2004 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Just because Brewer is Edmonton's #1 d-man, that doesn't mean he's worth as much as other team's #1's, players who actually deserve the role. Same goes for Lecavalier in Tampa. He may not be Tampa's #1 center(I disagree), but that doesn't mean his trade value is that of a #2 guy. That's rediculous logic.

Brewer would be the #1 in Tampa Bay too. Actually he would be a top 2 guy on most teams. Yeah Brewer's numbers aren't too impressive but then again he does have some solid offense. Plus his +/- is around even usually because he constantly plays against the other teams best players. Brewer is a stud. So is Lecavalier, I don't think the gap is nearly as big as Tampa fans would like to think.

Donnie D 01-13-2004 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FacelessButcher
Sure seems like your coach prefers Richards as the #1 center

No - I think our coach prefers St. Louis, who happened to be on Richard's line most of the year in an attempt to split his 2 best scorers (Vinny and St. Louis). Richards also was moved to the point to play with Vinny during the power play, so they are both on the ice for the same amount of time when they have a man advantage.

Growing up in Chicago (and I'll show my age), Bobby Hull never played on the "1st line" either. Or was it Mikita that didn't play on the 1st line? Hard to tell which was the 1st line, but they didn't play at the same time, so someone must have been on the 2nd line. Then again, maybe this concept that your 3 best players are all on put on the 1st line is a line of crap.

Bottom line - Vinny is the Lightning's top center, in talent, no matter what line or for how long he plays each game.

Mr Sakich 01-13-2004 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Just because Brewer is Edmonton's #1 d-man, that doesn't mean he's worth as much as other team's #1's, players who actually deserve the role. Same goes for Lecavalier in Tampa. He may not be Tampa's #1 center(I disagree), but that doesn't mean his trade value is that of a #2 guy. That's rediculous logic.

easy there big fella, I was just replying to a statement that said brerer wasn't a #1 dman and vinny was a #1 centre. I just pointed out that brewer is the oilers' #1 and vinny is the #2 centre.

If you read my post, what I said was - Trading a number two centre for a number one dman would not be the worst trade ever made maybe what I should have said is trading YOUR number 2 centre for someone elses' # 1 dman would not be the worst trade ever made, especially since dmen are over-priced right now.

jumptheshark 01-13-2004 01:47 PM

Vinny was supposed to be the go to guy, team leader, and all around player. Being in Florida and seeing him play, either he has lost a lot of heart for the game or he wishing to get traded. Brad Richards in the team leader and is starting to be the go to guy.

Vinny is supposed to be a 40goal.90pts man. Everytime it looks like he is about to take a stept forward, he takes two steps back. He is not a 19 year old prospect, he is now a vetren and has to put up the numbers he can, or the comparisons between him and Pierre Turgeon will start again.

What has Vinny L done in the last two years? He is not even a point a game player. I am not saying his not good, but he is not living up to his potential and when it comes to trades that incluede him---I have to point out the fact that he has not done all that he is supposed to have done. Compare his stats numbers to that of Turgeon when he was the age and they are very similier. I think Turgeon's where even better.

If Vinny was a point a game player--the TB would laugh at the original deal. But, he is 4th in team scoring and fighting with the coach again!!! yet again.
Right now Vinny show's no signs of being able to take that next step and until he takes that step that nearly everyone thinks he can---he is a huge underachiever and his market value will reflact that.

Vlad The Impaler 01-13-2004 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Sakich
i think your franchise centre is richards, not vinny. Look at their ice time in the last 25 games and brad is definately getting the 1st line centre minutes.

To hell with the minutes. If Tampa have a potential franchise centre, it is definitly Lecavalier, not diminutive Richards and his super-playmaking bias.

Get real here.

Lecavalier is struggling in part right now because Tortorella is a clueless **** holding grudges who is unable to sell his poor system properly.


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