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-   -   Crazy OTT/DAL proposal (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=43074)

Burke's Evil Spirit 01-11-2004 10:01 PM

Crazy OTT/DAL proposal
 
I'm feeling insane, the insanity of a man who thinks Ottawa is an elite defenceman away from bringing the Stanley Cup back to Canada.

To DAL: Karel Rachunek, Martin Havlat, Antoine Vermette, 1st round pick (2004)
To OTT: Sergei Zubov, Stu Barnes

I think I'll prepare to get flamed now.

thestonedkoala 01-11-2004 10:03 PM

To me that's a little bit of an overpayment by the Sens.

Jeffrey 01-11-2004 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thestonedkoala
To me that's a little bit of an overpayment by the Sens.

:eek: that's big time overpayment :eek:

Vlad The Impaler 01-11-2004 10:22 PM

That big *thump!* you just heard is Modano=God dropping dead after reading the thread start :joker:

thestonedkoala 01-11-2004 10:23 PM

ROFLMAO! Good one Vlad...

Puck 01-12-2004 04:18 AM

THUD, not just with M=G but a sound heard throughout Ottawa while reading this...just think of the billions of wasted electrons going to their deaths so this thread can live *shudder* ;)

sensfan18 01-12-2004 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
I'm feeling insane, the insanity of a man who thinks Ottawa is an elite defenceman away from bringing the Stanley Cup back to Canada.

To DAL: Karel Rachunek, Martin Havlat, Antoine Vermette, 1st round pick (2004)
To OTT: Sergei Zubov, Stu Barnes

I think I'll prepare to get flamed now.

Crazy is right, go put on your straight jacket. This deal in no way puts Ottawa any closer to bringing the cup back to Canada. You do this deal and all of a sudden our forward depth is gone, Ottawa strives off of rolling 4 good solid lines, this would desimate it. The only way havlat goes to dallas is if Morrow comes back, not going to happen. Our defence is fine, quite good actually and will have no problem when the playoffs roll around. I think that you would be hard pressed to find a sens fan willing to give Vermette and a 1st for Zubov, he is worth it, but Vermette has been lights out this year and is our only good young LW (a weakness in our organization). The only thing I can say about this deal is "terrible".

Oiltalk 01-12-2004 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sensfan18
pressed to find a sens fan willing to give Vermette and a 1st for Zubov, he is worth it, but Vermette has been lights out this year and is our only good young LW (a weakness in our organization). The only thing I can say about this deal is "terrible".

Please! Your GM would be all over Zubov if money wasn't an issue and Dallas was only asking for Vermette and a 1st. For a team that want's the cup this year, I don't see why Sens fans would cry over a deal like that. Of course it would never happen from a Dallas point of view though. :p

The above trade is far too much however. Havlat is only going to get a lot better.

Burke's Evil Spirit 01-12-2004 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sensfan18
You do this deal and all of a sudden our forward depth is gone, Ottawa strives off of rolling 4 good solid lines,

Bull. Ottawa does not roll 4 offensive lines, it rolls three, and after this trade it still has the capability to do so, although swapping Havlat for Barnes is a definite downgrade. However, Zubov represents something Ottawa has never had and will not win the Cup without: An elite puck-rushing defenceman. No, Redden doesn't cut it.

IMO, all this depth Ottawa has is over-rated - you need elite talent up-front, too, and Ottawa is lacking in this department on defense.

V for Voodoo 01-12-2004 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
I think I'll prepare to get flamed now.

Yep. It's what happens when you make stupid trade proposals.

Other Dave 01-12-2004 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
IMO, all this depth Ottawa has is over-rated - you need elite talent up-front, too, and Ottawa is lacking in this department on defense.

Though I disagree with your specifics, I share your (minority) opinion that the Sens really need a skilled veteran defenceman for the playoffs this year. I suspect, though, that a rentaplayer might be had for picks and prospects at the deadline.

Other Dave

hockeyhomer99 01-12-2004 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
I'm feeling insane, the insanity of a man who thinks Ottawa is an elite defenceman away from bringing the Stanley Cup back to Canada.

To DAL: Karel Rachunek, Martin Havlat, Antoine Vermette, 1st round pick (2004)
To OTT: Sergei Zubov, Stu Barnes

I think I'll prepare to get flamed now.


Were in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HF2002 01-12-2004 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Bull. Ottawa does not roll 4 offensive lines, it rolls three, and after this trade it still has the capability to do so, although swapping Havlat for Barnes is a definite downgrade. However, Zubov represents something Ottawa has never had and will not win the Cup without: An elite puck-rushing defenceman. No, Redden doesn't cut it.

IMO, all this depth Ottawa has is over-rated - you need elite talent up-front, too, and Ottawa is lacking in this department on defense.


I agree that ottawa does not have a legit #1 defenceman, but I disagree about the comment that their depth up front is over rated.
They already have 6 players with at least 10 goals, and they're on pace to add another 4 within a couple of weeks - although 2 would not be forwards (Chara and Redden are currently at 9 goals). I"m not about to scroll through all the other teams, but if there's another team with this same depth please let us know.

I also disagree that they don't have elite talent up front - Hossa qualifies as does Alfredsson, and Spezza is is a year away from elite status, IMO.

Burke's Evil Spirit 01-12-2004 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HF2002
I agree that ottawa does not have a legit #1 defenceman, but I disagree about the comment that their depth up front is over rated.
They already have 6 players with at least 10 goals, and they're on pace to add another 4 within a couple of weeks - although 2 would not be forwards (Chara and Redden are currently at 9 goals). I"m not about to scroll through all the other teams, but if there's another team with this same depth please let us know.

I also disagree that they don't have elite talent up front - Hossa qualifies as does Alfredsson, and Spezza is is a year away from elite status, IMO.

They do have elite talents up front. I'm saying they don't have it on the blueline.

Puck 01-12-2004 07:46 AM

IMO there was just too much talent being dealt here. If you want to find out what Zubov is worth on the Ottawa market, then delete Barnes and cut to the chase (Barnes is a bit long in the tooth to be used as bait to acquire top young talent). Dealing with large trade transactions like this is not managable. Imagine Muckler trading away Havlat, Rachunek, and Vermette and a 1st all in one transaction...not likely in reality and still difficult to swallow in fantasy. Ottawa is more likely to try to pick up some 'finishing pieces' for a playoff run but I doubt they try to land a 'ringer'. At least I doubt they trade a chunk of their team for one. The Sens build mostly from within.

Ajacied 01-12-2004 07:47 AM

This is just horrible.. Sure Zub and Barnes could be the 2 final pieces Ottawa needs, but they aren't gonna overpay to such a big degree where they give up 3 of their top youngsters, plus a first round pick.

That said, even if the deal was more realistic and not as lopsided, I still would be hesitant to deal Barnes, we still have a chance. And I personally wouldn't deal Zubov with the lack of puckmoving defensemen we have.

Puck 01-12-2004 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modano = God
This is just horrible.. Sure Zub and Barnes could be the 2 final pieces Ottawa needs, but they aren't gonna overpay to such a big degree where they give up 3 of their top youngsters, plus a first round pick.

Right on, thanks. As a Sens fan I couldn't really come out and say that without being called a homer by the other side but... yeah.

Burke's Evil Spirit 01-12-2004 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modano = God
This is just horrible.. Sure Zub and Barnes could be the 2 final pieces Ottawa needs, but they aren't gonna overpay to such a big degree where they give up 3 of their top youngsters, plus a first round pick.

Hardly overpaying. It's about on par with what Colorado gave up for Blake (Deadmarsh, Miller, Aulin, and two firsts for Blake and Reinprecht).

YellHockey* 01-12-2004 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Hardly overpaying. It's about on par with what Colorado gave up for Blake (Deadmarsh, Miller, Aulin, and two firsts for Blake and Reinprecht).

Hardly.

Deadmarsh was far less valuable then Havlat at the time of the trade because he had produced less then Havlat has so far and he had concussion problems that everyone knew about.

Miller was far less valuable then Rachunek at the time of the trade since he was only two years away from unrestricted free agency.

Aulin then is also not worth Vermette now since Vermette has proven he can play in the NHL while Aulin hadn't proven that back then.

And Reinprecht had more value back then that Stu Barnes has now.

HF2002 01-12-2004 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
They do have elite talents up front. I'm saying they don't have it on the blueline.


Fair enough.

But at what point does a defenceman become elite and others remain very good? I am critical of Redden at times, but he rides that line of being a legit 1st dman and a very good 2nd dman. Chara is the same way. Fortunately, the Sens have excellent team defence and above ave 3rd and 4th dmen. Now all they need is a real #1 goalie.

kidchrome 01-12-2004 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Hardly overpaying. It's about on par with what Colorado gave up for Blake (Deadmarsh, Miller, Aulin, and two firsts for Blake and Reinprecht).

but why would Ottawa(who is now not as cash-strapped as LA was at the time of the deal- which was strictly a salary dump because of Blake's impending contract status) want to give up that much to get a fourth - liner who has leadership qualities and a little offence in his game and a d-man who in all likelyhood be heading into the downside of his career???? Not for the players you mentioned . No offence to M=G who I kind of agree with. As he said...Zubov is not going anywhere for that offer, and IMO Ottawa would look at someone who was more defensively responsible.

Master Lok 01-12-2004 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDaddyMeatWhistle
Hardly.

Deadmarsh was far less valuable then Havlat at the time of the trade because he had produced less then Havlat has so far and he had concussion problems that everyone knew about.

Miller was far less valuable then Rachunek at the time of the trade since he was only two years away from unrestricted free agency.

Aulin then is also not worth Vermette now since Vermette has proven he can play in the NHL while Aulin hadn't proven that back then.

And Reinprecht had more value back then that Stu Barnes has now.

Agreed. All the players you've suggested from Ottawa's side are young and are not anywhere near approaching free agency. Notice that not one poster has supported your proposal? I'm not from Ottawa or Dallas, I'm from Edmonton and even I can see what a wretched overpayment this proposal is.

Ajacied 01-12-2004 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Hardly overpaying. It's about on par with what Colorado gave up for Blake (Deadmarsh, Miller, Aulin, and two firsts for Blake and Reinprecht).

I can see where you are comming from judging on that deal, and suddenly it doesn't look as bad. But the Sens are giving up younger and cheaper players, with more upside then what the Avs had to give the Kings (Deader was 26 at the time and Miller was approaching his 30's)..

In this deal, the Sens give up 3 players at 23 or under, who make a combined 3.5 million and who all have yet to hit their peaks. That, and Zubov is enjoying a sub-par season, while Blake (at the time 30, Zubov is now 33) was in the mids of a second Norris trophy run, much less add the fact that Reinprecht was younger and in the run for the Calder, it might not be as good as messure as you would imagine..

Zubov has a NTC and won't be dealt solely for the reason he's one of just two defensemen locked up beyond next season, and with the lack of puck rushing defensemen both now and especially down the road, I wouldn't even deal him if the playoffs were impossble to make.

I perfectly understand why either team would do it on (Sens need more experience and could need a standout #1 defenseman) while the Stars might turn the other direction amnd start rebuilding. But even then, the Sens are overpaying, and Muckler would never do this, despite that he would have little trouble replacing the assets he gives up. Zubov more then easily replaces Racoon, while Barnes might be suited more for a 3rd line/checking role then Havlat.

I say take out Vermette and the first at least..

Ajacied 01-12-2004 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDaddyMeatWhistle
And Reinprecht had more value back then that Stu Barnes has now.

I'd question that, personally. At the time, Reinprecht had about 17 points in 39 games as a rookie. Might've seen promesing, but I can guarentee you that Barnes has more value then Jason King.

SensGod 01-12-2004 09:43 AM

Also keep in mind...Muckler has been stating ever since last year that he won't trade any current roster players.

But if push came to shove and he decided to move a roster player...and Havlat was being moved, it would be for another young player, who can play the LW, has a scoring touch with a nasty edge...Hmmm...Morrow anyone?

sure zubov would be good to have...but we're not giving up some of our best young talent for a guy who might never play in the NHL past this year. That wouldn't make any sense what so ever.


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