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-   -   Edmonton/NYI proposal (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=44640)

shoyen 01-17-2004 01:25 PM

Edmonton/NYI proposal
 
It sounds as if Niinimaa is not fitting in very well with the Islanders, and that they would like a hard hitting, gritty top 4 d-man instead.

Would a straight up deal of Jason Smith for Niinimaa work?

hb6947 01-17-2004 01:29 PM

I posted the Niniima post on your board and that is just my opinion. To answer your question here, no that would not work as I would rather keep Niniima. What we need is a yound defenseman to bridge a gap we have in our farm system.

CREW99AW 01-17-2004 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyen
It sounds as if Niinimaa is not fitting in very well with the Islanders, and that they would like a hard hitting, gritty top 4 d-man instead.

Would a straight up deal of Jason Smith for Niinimaa work?

not really.Smith's 1-2 yrs older then Niinimaa.

unless the cba lowers the ufa age,Niinimma is the nyi top 4 d-man who's furthest from unrestricted free agency.

July 2005, when both Hamrlik and Aucoin are ufas,Niinimaa will still be restricted.

Isles will move either Hamrlik or Aucoin before that happens and re-sign the other to an extension.

jumptheshark 01-17-2004 02:18 PM

If you all recall--one reason why Janne was traded was because he lacks sense in his own D

Darth Milbury 01-17-2004 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyen
It sounds as if Niinimaa is not fitting in very well with the Islanders, and that they would like a hard hitting, gritty top 4 d-man instead.

Would a straight up deal of Jason Smith for Niinimaa work?


Smith and what else? Smith is not the equal of Niinimaa, contract issues asside.

Brewer for Niinimaa would be closer to fair.

kacz 01-17-2004 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Smith and what else? Smith is not the equal of Niinimaa, contract issues asside.

Brewer for Niinimaa would be closer to fair.

Brew back to NYI? Niinimaa back to Edmonton? Can't see that happening...

Darth Milbury 01-17-2004 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumptheshark
If you all recall--one reason why Janne was traded was because he lacks sense in his own D


Riiiiight. Janne N. was trade for $ reasons and $ reasons only.

Last year at this time, Oiler fans were telling us that Janne N. is elite and belongs in the top 10. Now, he "lacks sense in his own D."

Not trying to diss you, but that is not close to being true.

elphy101 01-17-2004 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Riiiiight. Janne N. was trade for $ reasons and $ reasons only.

Last year at this time, Oiler fans were telling us that Janne N. is elite and belongs in the top 10. Now, he "lacks sense in his own D."

Not trying to diss you, but that is not close to being true.

Yep Janne is still a stud defensemen imo. Although he has really struggled in NYI, and he was moved because of money. However Jason Smith is a pretty good defensemen as well. If I were to rate defensemen that I would like to have of Smith, Brewer and Niinimaa it would be like this. Brewer>Niinimaa>Smith.

The difference between Niinimaa and Brewer is probably about the same between Smith and Niinimaa in terms of trade value. In terms of performance this year, Jason Smith is having an outstanding season and would fly to the top of that list. However Brewer has finally turned it around, recently he is averaging almost 30 Minutes per game, most of those minutes against opponents top lines.

Darth Milbury 01-17-2004 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphy101
Yep Janne is still a stud defensemen imo. Although he has really struggled in NYI, and he was moved because of money. However Jason Smith is a pretty good defensemen as well. If I were to rate defensemen that I would like to have of Smith, Brewer and Niinimaa it would be like this. Brewer>Niinimaa>Smith.

The difference between Niinimaa and Brewer is probably about the same between Smith and Niinimaa in terms of trade value. In terms of performance this year, Jason Smith is having an outstanding season and would fly to the top of that list. However Brewer has finally turned it around, recently he is averaging almost 30 Minutes per game, most of those minutes against opponents top lines.

Fair enough. I do agree that Brewer's market value > Niinimaa, but I'm not sure that I would agree the difference is as great as Janne N. vs. Jason Smith. Otherwise, I agree with eernything you wrote.

jumptheshark 01-18-2004 05:42 PM

Have you all forgotten about his passing to the other teams from behind his own net. His nasty habit of running around in his own zone with the puck. Getting caught out of position so often. Money was one reason for his trade from Edmonton, but the grey hairs he was giving the oilers brass was sometiing else. (BTW---I got the oiler perspective from one of their scoutsz)

Darth Milbury 01-18-2004 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumptheshark
Have you all forgotten about his passing to the other teams from behind his own net. His nasty habit of running around in his own zone with the puck. Getting caught out of position so often. Money was one reason for his trade from Edmonton, but the grey hairs he was giving the oilers brass was sometiing else. (BTW---I got the oiler perspective from one of their scoutsz)

I watched him a lot last year. I don't think he has been the same player since the injury, but he was nowhere near as bad as you suggest. In fact, I'd say he was just a hair under elite. He was never a true #1, IMO, and probably never a top 10 guy. But, as an Oiler, he wasn't that far below the top 10. I don't think he has been great as an Islander, but he hasn't been horrible either. I think he needs a little while to get used to life on the Island, and recover from the injury. He should be fine, if not great.

Vyse64 01-18-2004 06:24 PM

is it his back or knee thats causing Janne N problems this season?

Darth Milbury 01-18-2004 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HemskyFreak83
is it his back or knee thats causing Janne N problems this season?


As far as I know, he is not having serious problems with either. However, it often takes players a full season to hit stride after knee surgery.

elphy101 01-18-2004 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumptheshark
Have you all forgotten about his passing to the other teams from behind his own net. His nasty habit of running around in his own zone with the puck. Getting caught out of position so often. Money was one reason for his trade from Edmonton, but the grey hairs he was giving the oilers brass was sometiing else. (BTW---I got the oiler perspective from one of their scoutsz)

Yep he did that during his 1st couple of years in the league. That's why he was nicknamed "Spaz". Did you watch him during his last couple of seasons as an Oiler? He was a stud. Not a top 10 defensemen but a damn good defensemen anyway. I think injuries are really hurting him these days. His skating doesn't seem to be improving and his back is starting to get really really bad. During his last year in Edmonton, his back was giving him serious problems.

CREW99AW 01-18-2004 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphy101
Yep he did that during his 1st couple of years in the league. That's why he was nicknamed "Spaz". Did you watch him during his last couple of seasons as an Oiler? He was a stud. Not a top 10 defensemen but a damn good defensemen anyway. I think injuries are really hurting him these days. His skating doesn't seem to be improving and his back is starting to get really really bad. During his last year in Edmonton, his back was giving him serious problems.

I don't think it's an injury.If Niinimaa was hurting or injured,I don't think the isles would be shopping Hamrlik the way they have been,knowing that Niinimaa's workload will increase once Hamrlik's dealt.

Niinimaa's struggles have come because of poor play and dumb penalties.
I also think that some of the criticism is overly harsh because fans haven't forgotten he wasn't happy leaving Edmonton for LI.

I don't feel much sympathy for him.If he wanted to stay in Edmonton,he should have signed a team friendly deal like Symth did.

Mr Sakich 01-18-2004 07:43 PM

I really like Janne. I like the way he plays hurt and I like his skill and attitude. BUT, the oilers cannot afford a guy with bad knees and a worse back. These things are chronic.

When healthy, he is a stud, but he is to fragile to be our stud.

Disgraced Cosmonaut 01-19-2004 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Sakich
I really like Janne. I like the way he plays hurt and I like his skill and attitude. BUT, the oilers cannot afford a guy with bad knees and a worse back. These things are chronic.

When healthy, he is a stud, but he is to fragile to be our stud.

overlooked in this whole discussion is the fact that he has been asked to switch sides and has never seemed completely comfortable with it. playing the right side for a lefthanded d-man is completely different for someone with other issues to begin with (eg. knee/back).
overall, niinimaa has been a disappointment on the isles and i know he can do better. if he does, i'd keep him for the reasons that dm suggests above (relative youth). if he doesn't, i suggest trading hammer for a righty d-man so niinimaa can move back to his natural position and at least be in his comfort zone. hammer for smith plus would make me relatively happy. of course, the likelihood of that happening is nil so i think the isles will wait things out or find a more suitable trading partner.
on a related note, martinek has quietly put together such a solid little year. i'm not sure i'd want to rely on him for top 4 minutes, but he's usually very smart witht he puck and has a deceptively great shot. very heady in his own zone.

Darth Milbury 01-19-2004 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Sakich
I really like Janne. I like the way he plays hurt and I like his skill and attitude. BUT, the oilers cannot afford a guy with bad knees and a worse back. These things are chronic.

When healthy, he is a stud, but he is to fragile to be our stud.



You're overstating the extent of his health problems. His knee and back are fine and neither are "chronic problems". He has been thrust into a difficult situation in NY, asked to chance his role, and is just coming off surgery. Naturally, it has taken him a little while to adjust. However, he should be fine over the longterm, and he is far from damaged goods.

Again, I love the way Oiler fans have changed their tune about this player. Last year at this time, their wasn't a single whisper as Janne's injuries. Instead, Janne was describe as an elite dman who the Oilers would never trade. Now, that he is an Islander he is "fragile."

Oiltalk 01-19-2004 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
You're overstating the extent of his health problems. His knee and back are fine and neither are "chronic problems". He has been thrust into a difficult situation in NY, asked to chance his role, and is just coming off surgery. Naturally, it has taken him a little while to adjust. However, he should be fine over the longterm, and he is far from damaged goods.

Again, I love the way Oiler fans have changed their tune about this player. Last year at this time, their wasn't a single whisper as Janne's injuries. Instead, Janne was describe as an elite dman who the Oilers would never trade. Now, that he is an Islander he is "fragile."

I never thought of Niinimaa as an elite defenceman. I figured he was a decent #1 but nothing more. The thing I remember most about Janne last year, is him being on the ice in front of our goalie for just about every goal against during the Oilers big losing streak in February. I still wouldn't mind getting him back, but he wouldn't improve the defence too much, and it wouldn't happen at the cost of Brewer.

Darth Milbury 01-19-2004 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oiltalk
I never thought of Niinimaa as an elite defenceman. I figured he was a decent #1 but nothing more. The thing I remember most about Janne last year, is him being on the ice in front of our goalie for just about every goal against during the Oilers big losing streak in February. I still wouldn't mind getting him back, but he wouldn't improve the defense too much, and it wouldn't happen at the cost of Brewer.


He wouldn't improve the defense much? Right. He'd easily be your number one dman.

I agree that Brewer's trade value is a good bit higher. But, I still think a lot of Oiler fans are being pretty hypocritical here. Again, the superlatives applied to him last year were remarkable. Oiler fans insisted that he was a top 10 dman, and just a notch below Pronger et al. Now, that he is traded, you guys make him out be be mediocre at best.

The reality is that Niinimma is still what he has been for years - a very good dman who could be number 2 on most teams in the league, and a number one on many (including EDM). He is off to a rough start on the Island, but he should be able to reach his former level once he puts it all together.

Oiltalk 01-19-2004 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
He wouldn't improve the defense much? Right. He'd easily be your number one dman.

I agree that Brewer's trade value is a good bit higher. But, I still think a lot of Oiler fans are being pretty hypocritical here. Again, the superlatives applied to him last year were remarkable. Oiler fans insisted that he was a top 10 dman, and just a notch below Pronger et al. Now, that he is traded, you guys make him out be be mediocre at best.

The reality is that Niinimma is still what he has been for years - a very good dman who could be number 2 on most teams in the league, and a number one on many (including EDM). He is off to a rough start on the Island, but he should be able to reach his former level once he puts it all together.

Easily be our number one? He sure wasn't showing it last year, and he isn't showing anything for the Isles either. The Oilers defence for the last few weeks has been looking better than it has been anytime last season. Moving Brewer for Niinimaa won't be much of an upgrade if at all. I personally think it would be a downgrade. Niinimma is a good defenceman, but he has always been a bit overrated. Top 20 in the NHL perhaps, but not top 10.

Darth Milbury 01-19-2004 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oiltalk
Easily be our number one? He sure wasn't showing it last year, and he isn't showing anything for the Isles either. The Oilers defence for the last few weeks has been looking better than it has been anytime last season. Moving Brewer for Niinimaa won't be much of an upgrade if at all. I personally think it would be a downgrade. Niinimma is a good defenceman, but he has always been a bit overrated. Top 20 in the NHL perhaps, but not top 10.


He was your number one for quite some time and , yeah, he isn't playing that great on the Island right now. But, the statement that he "wouldn't help the Oiler defense" is pure nonsense (with all due respect). At worst, he'd be your number 2 dman and probably your number one (because he is much more talented offensively than Brewer).

And Brewer, for all the hyperbole you guys apply to him, has had a so-so season at the very best. He is a minus 2 with a grand total of 11 points in 42 games. Hardly all star numbers, or the numbers of a number 1 dman on halfway decent team.

Rumors have it that Brewer is on the trade market. I do not believe that to be true, personally and I still believe he is one of the better young dmen in the league. However, if he does get moved, I'll bet you'll be on this website a few weeks later talking about how overrated Brewer is, and arguing that he added nothing to the Oiler defense.

Oiltalk 01-19-2004 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Milbury

Rumors have it that Brewer is on the trade market. I do not believe that to be true, personally and I still believe he is one of the better young dmen in the league. However, if he does get moved, I'll bet you'll be on this website a few weeks later talking about how overrated Brewer is, and arguing that he added nothing to the Oiler defense.

I was one of the few that liked the Janne trade in the first place, so it's kind of hard to pair me up with others that have changed their opinions about him. Brewer is just as overrated as Niinimaa, but a lot younger, has more potential, and has size. Something Niinimaa didn't bring. I wouldn't do that trade and that's that.

Darth Milbury 01-19-2004 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oiltalk
I was one of the few that liked the Janne trade in the first place, so it's kind of hard to pair me up with others that have changed their opinions about him. Brewer is just as overrated as Niinimaa, but a lot younger, has more potential, and has size. Something Niinimaa didn't bring. I wouldn't do that trade and that's that.


Nobody is trying to convince you that Brewer for Niinimaa is fair or doable. I think I acknowledged from the start that Brewer had more market value. I simply don't care for these post-hoc attempts by Oiler fans to describe Niinimaa as some sort of oft-injured fragile scrub. He is still every bit the player you guys expected the sun and the moon for.

Mr Sakich 01-19-2004 02:00 PM

actually, any oiler fan who listens to 630 ched would have heard rod phillips say that janne lacked any lateral movement because of his knee. Rod would then rave about janne's heart.

Darth, almost alll oiler fans loved janne but most of us knew about his back problems that go back 3-4 years. Backs don't ever get better and last year, it was a fact that he was playing on one knee. A bum knee is potentially a long term problem. I haven't watched janne much this year but if he is struggling, I would almost guaranttee that he is playing hurt, again. I think it is a tribute to Janne that he plays through this type of pain.


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