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-   -   Hypothetical question: High sticking penalties (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=447622)

Le Tricolore 11-27-2007 08:10 PM

Hypothetical question: High sticking penalties
 
Let's say a player high sticks two separate players on the same shift, and gets called for penalties each time. If both the players he hit are bleeding as a result, would it be a four minute 5 on 3?

Danrik 11-27-2007 09:32 PM

5 on 4 for 8 minutes.

We'reGonnaWin* 11-28-2007 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danrik (Post 11381118)
5 on 4 for 8 minutes.

I want to see this.

Stripes 11-28-2007 12:24 AM

Yup. Each player's penalties get stacked. I've seen a one-man fight situation where the player also threatened the referee on his way out of the game, which is a Match Penalty in Hockey Canada's book. He ended up with the following...

2:00 - Instigator
5:00 - Fighting
10:00 - Game Misconduct
5:00 - Match Penalty

The Game Misc. is not a timed penalty, but there was a 12:00 powerplay for the other team.

MikeD 11-28-2007 06:03 PM

In the NHL it would be such but not in USA. As far as I know there is no distinction between bleeding or not in a high stick penalty.

Le Tricolore 11-28-2007 07:51 PM

Thanks for the answers, guys. My friend and I can now sleep peacifuly. :p

Gino 14 11-29-2007 09:49 AM

Actually, in USAH, it could be a 10 minute major 5 on 4 penalty.

Quote:

b) A major plus a game misconduct penalty shall be imposed on
any player who injures an opponent by the use of a high
stick.

MikeD 11-29-2007 07:55 PM

I believe that is applied for an INTENTIONAL use of the stick.

Stripes 11-29-2007 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeD (Post 11409161)
I believe that is applied for an INTENTIONAL use of the stick.

Depends on what rulebook you play under. Under Hockey Canada's book, if you injure an opponent as a result of an infraction you are guilty of, it is an automatic Major and Game Misconduct.

Now the question needing to be answered, that most rulebooks do not, is whether or not blood is an injury. Under Hockey Canada rules, the double-minor for causing your opponent to bleed with a high stick is in the junior supplement, which means in minor hockey, your only options are a Minor or a Major and Game Misconduct.

Gino 14 11-30-2007 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeD (Post 11409161)
I believe that is applied for an INTENTIONAL use of the stick.

Wrong, there is no mention of accidental or intentional, only injury. Even an inadvertent high stick that causes injury is a 5 and a game. You are responsible for your stick, no excuses.

MikeD 11-30-2007 07:02 PM

This is from the 2005-2007 "points of emphasis" from USA hockey.

STICK INFRACTIONS

High sticking should always be treated the same, regardless of whether or not a player has facial protection. A small cut is not necessarily considered an injury. Officials are instructed to call a double minor penalty if injury occurs from an accidental high stick, or a major plus game ejection/game misconduct penalty if the injury was caused by a careless high stick. Spearing and butt-ending should also be called the same. If a player attempts to spear or buttend an opponent the officials should assess a minor plus misconduct penalty. If the player makes contact with his opponent the proper call should be a double minor plus game ejection or a major plus a game misconduct penalty.

Intent and delivery of the spear or butt-end should determine the correct application of this rule. These infractions may also be treated as attempt to injure or deliberate injury of an opponent.

Slashing will be called anytime the following occurs:

1. Any intimidating slashing or chopping motion to an opponent (regardless of what part of the body the stick contact is made).

2. Slashing or chopping an opponent that occurs above the waist, including the arm and hand area.

3. Slashing or chopping motions to an opponent where the aggressor’s hands are less than 18 inches apart.

These infractions are not a discussion point. Any coach/player who protests a stick infraction penalty may be assessed a bench minor/misconduct penalty."


So as we can see its not so cut and dried. What is determined to be an "injury" and the nature regarding accidental or careless is in the hands of the official. You also have the situation where the high stick/injury can be following a shot release....

Stripes 12-01-2007 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeD (Post 11422509)
You also have the situation where the high stick/injury can be following a shot release....

To me this one is easy. Unless your rulebook specifically states that this scenario is NOT a High Sticking penalty, you had better be calling it High Sticking.

Gino 14 12-01-2007 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeD (Post 11422509)
This is from the 2005-2007 "points of emphasis" from USA hockey.

STICK INFRACTIONS

High sticking should always be treated the same, regardless of whether or not a player has facial protection. A small cut is not necessarily considered an injury. Officials are instructed to call a double minor penalty if injury occurs from an accidental high stick, or a major plus game ejection/game misconduct penalty if the injury was caused by a careless high stick. Spearing and butt-ending should also be called the same. If a player attempts to spear or buttend an opponent the officials should assess a minor plus misconduct penalty. If the player makes contact with his opponent the proper call should be a double minor plus game ejection or a major plus a game misconduct penalty.

Intent and delivery of the spear or butt-end should determine the correct application of this rule. These infractions may also be treated as attempt to injure or deliberate injury of an opponent.

Slashing will be called anytime the following occurs:

1. Any intimidating slashing or chopping motion to an opponent (regardless of what part of the body the stick contact is made).

2. Slashing or chopping an opponent that occurs above the waist, including the arm and hand area.

3. Slashing or chopping motions to an opponent where the aggressor’s hands are less than 18 inches apart.

These infractions are not a discussion point. Any coach/player who protests a stick infraction penalty may be assessed a bench minor/misconduct penalty."


So as we can see its not so cut and dried. What is determined to be an "injury" and the nature regarding accidental or careless is in the hands of the official. You also have the situation where the high stick/injury can be following a shot release....


I'm not sure where this version of Emphasis came from, but it's not from the 07 - 09 rulebook.

USAH Rules

If you check, you'll see that none of this is in there. USAH only has a double minor for roughing, nothing else. That too is covered in the back.
Quote:

Minor or Double Minor Penalty
640(a) Unnecessary roughness
Highsticking is either a 2 min. minor, a major, or a major and a game, for each occurence.

Since the original post was in reference to what penalties to one player for two penalties on one play, the whole arguement about follow-through and referee interprutation isn't valid here. If you decide to make it a separate topic, you should do some further research into the rules.

MikeD 12-01-2007 10:42 AM

nah, its not that improtant of an issue but you are aware that there is much more to the deal than the rule book. This is why the Situations manual/Casebook is out there and seminars are conducted. The above quote comes directly from the 2005-2007 casebook.

If your not familiar with the previous and latest "points of emphasis" issued by USA hockey, you should get up to date. Its not a big issue for most of us since most arent wearing stripes but that is not the case for yourself.

Gino 14 12-03-2007 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeD (Post 11429140)
nah, its not that improtant of an issue but you are aware that there is much more to the deal than the rule book. This is why the Situations manual/Casebook is out there and seminars are conducted. The above quote comes directly from the 2005-2007 casebook.

If your not familiar with the previous and latest "points of emphasis" issued by USA hockey, you should get up to date. Its not a big issue for most of us since most arent wearing stripes but that is not the case for yourself.

It must be a big issue if you keep trying to make a point of it. I find it extremely difficult to believe that USAH would issue Points of Emphasis contrary to their own rules guidelines (they didn't, this isn't covered in the POE in the 05-07 manual).

Rule 617 High Sticks
(a) The carrying of sticks above the normal height of the
shoulder is prohibited. The Referee may assess a minor or a
major penalty on any player violating this rule.
(Note) The use of the “slap shot” in the 10 & under age
classification and below is prohibited. This applies to both
Youth and Girls. A face-off shall take place at one of the end
face-off spots adjacent to the goal of the offending player’s
team who, in the process of making a forehand shot or pass,
raises the blade of his stick above his waist in the
backswing of such shot or pass.
(b) A major plus a game misconduct penalty shall be imposed on
any player who injures an opponent by the use of a high
stick.

No where does it cover "intentional" versus inadvertent, as you brought up earlier, and, there is no double minor option for a high sticking penalty.

Perhaps you should try attending one of the many seminars of which you speak, it might clear up some of your many misconceptions of the rules. Maybe you should also try calling a few games on the ice rather than from behind your mask and keyboard, then you'll pay closer attention to what the rules really are..

Henrique Iglesias 12-04-2007 08:55 AM

Um, im pretty sure this just happened in the devils vs. canadians game, 2 devils players were high sticked, the first player who was high sticked drew blood but the second one didnt, so therefore it was a 4:00 5-on-3.

Stripes 12-04-2007 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devils9789 (Post 11468789)
Um, im pretty sure this just happened in the devils vs. canadians game, 2 devils players were high sticked, the first player who was high sticked drew blood but the second one didnt, so therefore it was a 4:00 5-on-3.

It was for 4:00 because both high sticks DID draw blood. It was a 5-on-3 because two different players were penalized. If it was the same player penalized for both high sticks, it would have been 5-on-4 for 8:00.


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