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-   -   Lidstrom vs. Orr (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=450948)

Ribban 12-06-2007 12:04 PM

Lidstrom vs. Orr
 
LOL!

Along with the recent ranking of Lidstrom as the best Euro player of all times in the NHL, someone had to make sure it was pointed out that he maybe great, but only second best in the league... Right behind Bobby Orr.

Considering our own thread about best Swede ever, I found it funny that the comparison was made, or even brought up. Obviously Bobby Orr wouldn't stand a chance against Lidas, even if Nicklas played on one skate, but for their time, Bobby Orr may have dominated more than Lidstrom, although Orr benefits from the "memory lane" factor that tends to bring people up a few notches.

OK.. let it rip.. any thoughts?

TANK200 12-07-2007 04:09 AM

Orr was the second best player of all-time behind only Wayne Gretzky (though some would even call him the best). There is really no comparison between Orr and Lidstrom. Bobby Orr played nine full seasons before having his career ended by injury. In those 9 years, he won the Norris trophy as best defenseman 8 consecutive times, the Hart trophy for most valuable player 3 times, and led the league in scoring twice (something no other defenseman has even done even once). What made these accomplishments even greater is that he did not sacrifice defensive play. Any time he led a rush into the offensive zone, he was the first man back on defense, and was always willing to put his body on the line to block shots in an era where equipment in not even close to that worn today. Orr was in a class of his own when he played.

On that note, I also believe that calling Lidstrom the 2nd best defenseman ever is highly overrating him. Eddie Shore, Doug Harvey and Ray Bourque all accomplished significantly more than Lidstrom has, and did so against better competition. I rank Lidstrom as the 5th best defenseman ever behind only these four mentioned. He is, however, still playing and I believe that another 2 or 3 Norris trophies (if he can manage this) would likely cause me to change my mind.

As for being the best European player, that is also debatable. He is certainly one of the top three that has played in the NHL along with Jaromir Jagr and Domanik Hasek. I personally rank him as a close second to Jagr, though I recognize that the title of best European player ever could easily be given to any of the three players that I mentioned.

Ribban 12-08-2007 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TANK200 (Post 11515167)
Orr was the second best player of all-time behind only Wayne Gretzky (though some would even call him the best). There is really no comparison between Orr and Lidstrom. Bobby Orr played nine full seasons before having his career ended by injury. In those 9 years, he won the Norris trophy as best defenseman 8 consecutive times, the Hart trophy for most valuable player 3 times, and led the league in scoring twice (something no other defenseman has even done even once). What made these accomplishments even greater is that he did not sacrifice defensive play. Any time he led a rush into the offensive zone, he was the first man back on defense, and was always willing to put his body on the line to block shots in an era where equipment in not even close to that worn today. Orr was in a class of his own when he played.

On that note, I also believe that calling Lidstrom the 2nd best defenseman ever is highly overrating him. Eddie Shore, Doug Harvey and Ray Bourque all accomplished significantly more than Lidstrom has, and did so against better competition. I rank Lidstrom as the 5th best defenseman ever behind only these four mentioned. He is, however, still playing and I believe that another 2 or 3 Norris trophies (if he can manage this) would likely cause me to change my mind.

As for being the best European player, that is also debatable. He is certainly one of the top three that has played in the NHL along with Jaromir Jagr and Domanik Hasek. I personally rank him as a close second to Jagr, though I recognize that the title of best European player ever could easily be given to any of the three players that I mentioned.

Hmmm.... nah. Objection dismissed,

hdw 12-08-2007 02:39 AM

This again is one of those impossible comparisons.

If you had a Bobby Orr in his prime versus a Nicklas Lidström in his prime (like last week) it wouldn't even be funny.

And the reason is way beyond those actual players.

Any proffessional athlete today, compared head to head, is a good deal better than his or her college 30 years ago, regardless of sport.

How many 30+ year old world records are there?

Comparing with in regard to the average level of the league for each of them gives a different answer.

Orr both redefined and refined the D position, he took it to a level not seen before.

Lidström has refined the position with his hockey sense and positioning, but he's not on the same strata as Orr.

Bobby Orr is number one, and he will remain number one until kingdom come.

Nicklas Lidström is top 5, possibly top 3 if he continues to play on this level for a couple of years more.

Nordic* 12-14-2007 06:02 PM

Orr dominated his peers more, Lidström is 10 times better than Orr ever was.

Depends how you look at it.

toastman344* 12-15-2007 04:13 AM

None of U Swede posters here...EVER even saw ORR PLAY...This entire thread is a TOTAL NON STARTER/JOKE ! Lidstrom couldn't CARRY ORR'S JOCK !!!!!

Likewise, saying that the Swede must be better...just cuz Orr played 30 years ago...is MORE HOGWASH...If the players of yesteryear were so inferior...How is it that HOWE played IN 5 DIFFERENT DECADES ???

Ask Gordie who the best he ever saw was...He'd answer BOBBY ORR...WITHOUT A MOMENT'S HESISTATION...

P.S. : NO APOLOGIES FOR THE CAPS EITHER KRONORS...FULLY DESERVED !...Ur Hockey history IQ's or lack thereof...DESERVE A TOTAL ***** SLAPPING...

CHEERS :)

Mr Kanadensisk 12-16-2007 11:12 AM

We could have a great debate over who the best defenceman was while Lidstrom was playing. With guys like Coffey, Bourque, Leetch, Pronger and Neidermayer it would be a good discussion.

In my opinion the only way to compare players of different era's is by how much they dominated the game when they played.

toastman344* 12-17-2007 12:30 PM

Mr.Kanadensick:
Quote:

We could have a great debate over who the best defenceman was while Lidstrom was playing. With guys like Coffey, Bourque, Leetch, Pronger and Neidermayer ( Stevens, MacIinnis, Chelios etc ) it would be a good discussion.
In my opinion the only way to compare players of different era's is by how much they dominated the game when they played.

Notably, Orr played against HOF D men like Park, Potvin, Robinson, Horton and Savard...Yet There was NO DEBATE...Who THE BEST D man was...nor who THE LEAGUE'S BEST PLAYER was...NOR ( for many in the ORR era... ) WHO THE BEST ALL TIME WAS..' ( even the old timers , at that time, were quick to say he was the best they'd ever seen...Still The Greastest Ever IS # 4...say NO MORE!'

P.S.: When was the last time a D-man led the NHL in scoring ?:amazed:

canuckulous 12-20-2007 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilros (Post 11627193)
Orr dominated his peers more, Lidström is 10 times better than Orr ever was.
Depends how you look at it.

I wasn't aware that human evolution happened so fast. :sarcasm:

Orr is / was / and will always be twice the player that Lidstrom is. And Lidstrom is a GREAT player.

SpartyWing86* 12-27-2007 03:27 AM

Athletes are better now than they were many years ago. It's not that the person has changed, but the preparation for playing at the highest level has changed drastically. We know more about nutrition and physiology today than decades ago. The game has been reinvented a few times. Remember when the trap was first conceived and teams bashed their heads against the wall trying to solve it? Athletes today aren't better made, but they are better trained.

That being said, I think Lidstrom and Orr play at about the same level. So considering this, it isn't a surprise Orr dominated when he played. He was years ahead of his time.

However, I must add in something. Hockey isn't constantly evolving either. It merely transitions in a discreet manner whenever rule-changes and other events happen. This like the broadening of the player base to include international talent, technological innovations that produce better gear, lock-outs and rule changes all server to divide hockey into eras IMO.

So, in toto, I would say that Lidstrom is tied for 2nd with Bourque behind Orr all time. This is considering the player's ability as well, not just the player's contrast to his peers.

Lux Aurumque* 12-30-2007 09:13 PM

I look at Nicklas Lidstrom as the second best defenseman of all time, but Bobby Orr is, in my mind, the greatest hockey player ever. He had such a short career, yet put up so many points while still being incredibly solid defensively. Imagine if Orr had played a full career without his bad knee: I'm fairly sure he'd be called the best ever by > 90% of hockey fans.

Augustus Pablo 12-30-2007 09:41 PM

[QUOTE=SpartyWing86;11775276]Athletes are better now than they were many years ago. It's not that the person has changed, but the preparation for playing at the highest level has changed drastically. We know more about nutrition and physiology today than decades ago. The game has been reinvented a few times. Remember when the trap was first conceived and teams bashed their heads against the wall trying to solve it? Athletes today aren't better made, but they are better trained.
QUOTE]

Exactly....Bobby Orr did not get the same training methods that the players of today have (that includes Lidstrom ;)) and we are still putting Orr ahead, that tells me something about how great Orr was.

Nordic* 01-02-2008 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caged Wisdom (Post 11825552)

Exactly....Bobby Orr did not get the same training methods that the players of today have (that includes Lidstrom ;)) and we are still putting Orr ahead, that tells me something about how great Orr was.

People who refuses to see reason puts Orr ahead of the superstars of today.


I don´t.

hdw 01-03-2008 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilros (Post 11850705)
People who refuses to see reason puts Orr ahead of the superstars of today.


I don´t.

Bobby Orr redefined the game of a hockey defense man.

Nicklas Lidström excels in playing that game.

That puts Orr in a league of his own.

If that is regarded as 'refusing to see reason', then I plead guilty.

Dan-o16 01-04-2008 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpartyWing86 (Post 11775276)
Athletes are better now than they were many years ago. It's not that the person has changed, but the preparation for playing at the highest level has changed drastically. We know more about nutrition and physiology today than decades ago. The game has been reinvented a few times. Remember when the trap was first conceived and teams bashed their heads against the wall trying to solve it? Athletes today aren't better made, but they are better trained.

I don't think this is true. I think that the average world class athlete is superior now, for a number of reasons. But I see little reason to think that what is true for the average is true for the extremes, especially the top superstars. Top superstars are psychologial and physical freaks. They're different from ordinary athletes, period. Differences between eras are overstated when it comes to the outstanding.

If Bobby Orr played today, he would be a top defenseman, hands down. Personally, I don't have a horse in this Orr vs. Lidstrom race. But to say that Lidstrom is 10X the player beause of the era is just plain silly.

People who think that the progression of the game is so extreme may wonder how Rod Brind'Amour played the same game for almost 20 years with such consistent success. And Ron Francis, who did the same thing a few years earlier. You might not want to compare Brind'Amour with Francis (as an Islander fan, though, there's no opposing player I feared like Brindamour), but the guy always had freaky strength and endurance, things tha determined his game. I'd bet he'd be roughly the same kind of player *in any era*.

Cheers,

Dan-o

rcduthie77 01-04-2008 10:47 AM

Lidstrom is GREAT, a fantastic, unbelieveable, talented player who will be a first ballot H.O.F'er for certain but no question he is the third best defenceman of all time.

Bobby Orr - Greatest ever that simple, 7 Norris's in 9 full seasons...incredible.

Ray Bourque - Was the 2nd most dominant defenceman in history...Holds almost every record possible for defencemen and was statistically ripped for several Norris trophies despite haveing 5.

Nicklas Lidstrom - No question he belongs here, a very close 3rd but 3rd none the less. I love Lid's game and he's definatly one of my role models but he cannot pass Bobby and Ray, however his name does belong with theirs.

icerocket 01-06-2008 04:53 PM

I love Lids but he wouldn't even be able to carry Orr's jockstrap around. Orr was the best ever PERIOD.

hdw 01-06-2008 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcduthie77 (Post 11883014)
Ray Bourque - Was the 2nd most dominant defenceman in history...Holds almost every record possible for defencemen and was statistically ripped for several Norris trophies despite haveing 5.

Nicklas Lidstrom - No question he belongs here, a very close 3rd but 3rd none the less. I love Lid's game and he's definatly one of my role models but he cannot pass Bobby and Ray, however his name does belong with theirs.

I agree (as noticed) fully on the Orr part.

I would however prefer to leave the Bourque/Lidström issue open and undecided until Lidström retires :)

Bringing home a cup as captain of his team would for instance tilt the factors a bit.

rcduthie77 01-06-2008 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdw (Post 11924049)
I agree (as noticed) fully on the Orr part.

I would however prefer to leave the Bourque/Lidström issue open and undecided until Lidström retires :)

Bringing home a cup as captain of his team would for instance tilt the factors a bit.

Ok fair enough, I will admit being a Bruins fan and with Ray Bourque being an idol of mine it will be hard to sway me no matter what but even so if anyone were to ever put any defenceman other then Orr above Bourque or Lidstrom I believe their crazy these 2 guys are definatly #2 and #3 all-time respectivly (for now anyways lol).

Seiza 01-07-2008 06:09 AM

The discussion is rather silly avtually. There will never be a d-man ranked ahead of Orr, mostly because of him being so superior in his time and because it is highly unlikely that another d-man wins the scoring race again. Even if Lidström probably would the better player if the played in the same era, there is really no way of knowing. If Lidas gets another Norris this year, I would have to say that he's #2 of all time.

Canad93 01-24-2008 04:15 PM

Orr..oh my god Orr not even a chance of Lidstrom.

kg14 04-12-2011 02:46 PM

Comparing Lidstrom to Orr is like comparing Yzerman to Gretzky. Being a Detroit fan I can plain as day state the Wings were top 5 in their respective positions, but those other 2 are the best ever.

Gretzky > Yzerman
Orr >Lidstrom

What Bobby Orr did was remarkable. 9 full seasons, 8 norris trophies, 3 MVP's. That's just stupid right there.

Boxscore 05-23-2011 11:16 PM

No disrespect to the great Nicklas Lidstrom but this it not a competition. In fact it's not even fair to Lidstrom. A better comparison for Lidstrom would be Ray Bourque - and I prefer Bourque by a thin hair. IMO Nick Lidstrom is the 5th best all-around defenseman to ever play the game. Some will disagree with my listings because of Denis Potvin but I think Potvin was the 3rd best total package defenseman to ever lace up skates. I would go:

1. Orr
2. Harvey
3. Potvin
4. Bourque
5. Lidstrom
6. Shore

Lugaid 05-24-2011 11:32 AM

You'll never be allowed to say that Lidström is on Orr's level since he has the nostalgia-boon, he's always going to be remembered as super awesome because he was in comparison with everyone else who played back then. Lids has played during a much tougher era when the game is much faster and harder on the physical side, but he'll never get as much credit since "He never won an Art Ross", well big surprise, the game is totally different these days. You just can't compare eras like that.

Boxscore 05-24-2011 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lugaid (Post 33213217)
You'll never be allowed to say that Lidström is on Orr's level since he has the nostalgia-boon, he's always going to be remembered as super awesome because he was in comparison with everyone else who played back then.

With respect, Lidstrom is not on Orr's level because no defenseman is (or has been) on Orr's level in the history of hockey so far. That is not an insult to Lidstrom, it's the truth. Orr redefined the entire defense position, dominated everyone in his era (not just defensemen) and is regarded by many hockey historians as the greatest PLAYER to ever play the game. Could the same be said about Lidstrom? Would anyone ever say Lidstrom was better than Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux, etc.?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lugaid (Post 33213217)
Lids has played during a much tougher era when the game is much faster and harder on the physical side, but he'll never get as much credit since "He never won an Art Ross", well big surprise, the game is totally different these days. You just can't compare eras like that.

I disagree. Orr played in a era where there were 12 teams and the players were a lot more physical and mean. Lidstrom never had to take the physical abuse Orr did on a nightly basis. Lidstrom never had to play on two bad knees without medical advances to cure him. In fact, I think Lidstrom gets all the credit he deserves. A fan started a thread comparing him to Orr - that alone proves how much credit Nick Lidstrom gets (and deserves) in hockey circles. Lidstrom is one of the true greats, don't get me wrong, but Orr was just simply better.


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