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capn89* 01-23-2004 12:20 PM

Kolzig
 
If Hackett *chokechokehackhack* would accept a trade, who would it take to be moved to get Kolzig, and would you want him on the team? Myself, I'd still be willing to move Gagne. He's inconsistant, and in my opinion has had enough time to prove if he's superstar material or not (which he obviously isn't). Would the Caps go Hackett, Gagne & Therien for Kolzig and Gonchar? Not forgetting the fact that they are bent on dumping salaries.

Teezax 01-23-2004 12:22 PM

well the rumor that almost happened was identical but pencil in Willy instead of Gags. Washingtonw anted more from us at the last minute, i don't know if Gagné would do it for them. But i wouldn't trade Gags now, he's been playing better and he is an integral part of our "youth movement"

Rex88 01-23-2004 12:30 PM

I would not give up on Gags - we have no high end wing talent for the future.
Gags will be OK and is very good both ends of the ice.
Kolzig can be had for less - Gonchar is a different story.
I really think this team needs to try to keep a mix of ages and not load up on all vets.

capn89* 01-23-2004 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teezax
well the rumor that almost happened was identical but pencil in Willy instead of Gags. Washingtonw anted more from us at the last minute, i don't know if Gagné would do it for them. But i wouldn't trade Gags now, he's been playing better and he is an integral part of our "youth movement"

I love our "youth movement." I still remember Hitch last year, "the vets are going to play a lesser role and the young players will have to take the brunt of the offensive load." and what happens? Roenick, Rechhi & Amonte lead the team in scoring. Let's face is, the best young player the Flyers have is Pitkanen & not much else. I'm not trying to rip the Flyers, because I'd love more than anything to have them get some legitimate talent in there that will support the team for years to come, but we just don't have it. Everyone who's supposed to be the "next big star" ends up bombing. Look at some of the talent in the Detroit and Colorado organization. Are you telling me you wouldn't drop Gagne like a bad habit to get your hands on guys like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Tanguay or Hejduk? I'll probably get ripped for this, but hey it's America, so be it. Gagne is over-rated. He is injury prone, he doesn't hit, when he takes hits there's a 30% chance he'll get hurt, and he doesn't finish. His shooting percentage is weak, and he's not going to be anything more than a 20, maybe 30 goal scorer at BEST.

04' hockey 01-23-2004 04:14 PM

Nah!
 
No way Gag's for OL'D'IE the goalie.....would have to be ALOT coming the Flyers way if Gagne's involved.

FlyersGuy69 01-23-2004 04:16 PM

Gagne has a ton of talent, he has scored 30+ goals before and is only 23 so I would not trade him. I love when people say that he is injury prone because it's not the case at all. he had a separated shoulder 2 years ago and had the abdominal tear last season that they miss-diagnosed all year (which were causing groin problems all year) until the off season when he had surgery. other than that, he has had just bumbs and bruises just like everyone else. he has played in all but 2 games this season so he's fine.

he is exactly the type of player that would come back to haunt us if we gave him up now.

FlyHigh 01-23-2004 04:52 PM

Gagne has a lot of talent and has been durable except for last year. He is great at both ends of the ice and has been our best player since williams was traded, why deal him now?

Toonces 01-23-2004 04:54 PM

Superstar? I don't remember Gagne ever being projected as anything but what he is now. Gagne is still stuggleing to score, but he's only 23 years old, and he plays the defensive game of a 10 year vet.

His Pre-Draft scouting report. Everything said below about him is 100% correct. Notice the part about being a good checker.

Central Scouting report: An effortless, shifty skater with good acceleration and a quick change of pace ... a smart player who is very clever with the puck ... he is an unselfish player who effectively creates opportunities for his teammates ... he is creative with the puck and possesses natural scoring instincts ... he is always around the puck and is excellent in one-on-one situations ... is used in all game situations ... he is a good checker, although he is not considered a physical player ... he positions himself for transition of play ... a good competitor with strong desire and an excellent attitude towards the game.

Dr Love 01-23-2004 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyHigh
has been our best player since williams was traded, why deal him now?

That's not really saying a lot. Now, if that statement holds up in a month, then you've got a point.

biggbloo 01-23-2004 05:11 PM

Let's take Gagne out of every trade rumor.
 
Clarke has said many times that he would not consider trading Williams or Gagne,unless the teams needs were greater than the talent those two provide. The problem with the defense was why Williams was traded,let there be no doubt about that,and there is absolutely no way in hell that Gagne will be dealt for an older goaltender. I like Kolzig,and he can give Esche some well needed rest during the stretch drive to the play-offs. It's too bad about Hackett,but if he is suffering from an ailment like vertigo,you can pretty much say goodbye to him. Kolzig would be a very good mentor to Esche,sort of like how Chico was Lindburgh's mentor. I'm not comparing Esche to Pelle,but he is a very good young goalie.I also agree with Bob Clarke's assessment of the goalies around the league. He said something to the effect that there are only one or two superstar goalies in the league now,Brodeur & perhaps Hasek (when not injured),and none of the teams wil part with goalies of that caliber. He also said that the remaining goalies are all about the same talent-wise,they're all pretty good goalies out there.For the play-offs,I think Clarke and Hitchcock will want to have access to a goalie who has been in a few rounds of the play-offs. Kolzig took his team to the finals once,and didn't look too bad in his finals series. So I wouldn't rule out a possible deal involving high draft picks for Ollie,but Clarke will NOT trade Gagne at all,for anyone!

FearTheFlyers 01-23-2004 05:21 PM

Gagne was finally put in an offensive role against the Rags last night, guess what,he scored!

For those who say he can't score it's only because Hitch knows he's our best defensive winger.

Fire Bobby Clarke 01-23-2004 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneSpeedOnly
Gagne was finally put in an offensive role against the Rags last night, guess what,he scored!

For those who say he can't score it's only because Hitch knows he's our best defensive winger.

Totally agree Gagnes numbers have dropped signifigantly to the role Hitch has put him in the last couple of years.

Gonchar is overrated we don't need him...sure he has a great shot but is liability in his own end...come playoff time you want guys who can clear the front of the net not score goals...that's what the forwards are for.

Kolzig's best days are behind him...I don't think he is an upgrade over esche (well at least the way he has played this year).

The only goalies who are on the market that I would like to see here are Cujo or Khabiboulin.

As far as these other names metioned as possible trade possibilties.

Turek-Crap
Burke-Way way way past his prime
Salo-no thank you.

If we get a goalie I don't want to see us give up players or picks for someone who is slightly better then esche....Clarke better go hard or go home. Go after an outstanding goalie or let esche run with it.

As far as Hacket goes if I were Hitchcock he would be in the minors the rest of the season. We pay him pretty good mponey to become our #1 goalie and he says to a reportewr he can't handle being number 1...Sorry off to the minors you go.

FlyHigh 01-23-2004 06:37 PM

I am the only one that wants to see Anterro Nittymaki get a start, just to see how he does?

Fire Bobby Clarke 01-23-2004 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyHigh
I am the only one that wants to see Anterro Nittymaki get a start, just to see how he does?

I am very curious to see what this kid can do too.

Gert B Frobe 01-23-2004 07:17 PM

I'd like to see what he can do also.

I think Gagne should be kept around for at least a few more years. I know we gave up on Williams early- but Gagne is such a positionally sound player and has such talent...

Keep him around - he'll only get better as he gets older. IMO

Brad* 01-23-2004 07:25 PM

Kolzig this, Kolzig that. Everyone thinks he'd be such an improvement over Esche but honestly, I don't see it. I too think his best days are behind him. He's shown nothing that would indicate that he would be able to return to his old form, and it really isn't worth giving up the assets to acquire what is more or less a large risk.

FlyersGuy69 01-23-2004 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyersPhantoms33
Kolzig this, Kolzig that. Everyone thinks he'd be such an improvement over Esche but honestly, I don't see it. I too think his best days are behind him. He's shown nothing that would indicate that he would be able to return to his old form, and it really isn't worth giving up the assets to acquire what is more or less a large risk.

agreed.

people have to stop listening to the hype that the Flyers don't have good goaltending. Esche has been doing a great job as far as I am concerned and if he can play this way in the playoffs then the hockey community outside of Philly will have to recognize Esche as a legit starter.

BTW, will people stop saying that the Flyers gave up on Williams please. the Flyers did not give up on him they simply traded him to fill a need. there's a difference. you have to give to get.

Dr Love 01-23-2004 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyersPhantoms33
Kolzig this, Kolzig that. Everyone thinks he'd be such an improvement over Esche but honestly, I don't see it. I too think his best days are behind him. He's shown nothing that would indicate that he would be able to return to his old form, and it really isn't worth giving up the assets to acquire what is more or less a large risk.

I agree as well. Kolzig had one playoff run in his career, just like Sean Burke (Kolzig's was better though), and his best days are behind him. In fairness he did win the Vezina after that playoff run, and his numbers have been fine. But is he so much better than Esche to justify whatever it would take to get him? I don't think so. Esche isn't proven in the playoffs, but he's played great and the team plays great in front of him. I really hope that Clarke doesn't trade for a goalie. I believe in Esche, he has earned the right to be the starter in the playoffs, and I know he'll suceed if given the chance. I base this off of not only his play, but his attitude. He doesn't let in the soft goal anymore than the next goalie not named Brodeur, and his attitude and demeanor are, in my opinion, excellent. Goalies are supposed to be quirky, but he's so unquirky it's actually quirky. That made little sense, I know. I don't see any reason why Esche would be the reason the Flyers don't get far in the playoffs. Hitchcock believes he can do the job, and so far he has proved him right.

If Clarke trades for a goalie other than Roberto Luongo (which will never happen) I'll hate it until they get to the Cup.

Brad* 01-23-2004 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Love
I believe in Esche, he has earned the right to be the starter in the playoffs...

I feel the same way. I think if the Flyers have any long term plans for Esche, they have to start with Robert getting a chance (this season) to show what he has in the playoffs. If they go out and acquire someone like Kolzig and give him the job of playoff starter then Esche will have never even had a chance, and that isn't fair.

Hey, if Esche doesn't work out at least they'll know they will probably have to head in another direction. Never know until you give him a chance.

capn89* 01-23-2004 10:19 PM

Scenario: Flyers lose in the first round of the playoffs to (blank)... what do you do? Are we going to make excuses once again about the players giving the goalie no support?

Rails 01-23-2004 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyHigh
I am the only one that wants to see Anterro Nittymaki get a start, just to see how he does?

I'm curious as well.

DanKordicsFist 01-24-2004 06:02 AM

I think Kolzig's situation needs to be taken into consideration to judge his play of late. He's backstopping a team who has no good defensive defensemen I can think of. The forwards don't get back and help. He faces around 40 shots a night, quite a few all alone. He may not be a regular season upgrade over Esche, but playoffs are intense and the Flyers are in win now mode. I would be willing to bet Kolzig is a better choice under pressure than Esche. I could be wrong, but the only way to find out is let Esche start the playoffs. If he can't get it done, what happens? Does everybody say "That's allright, we'll get 'em next year and Esche will have another year under his belt" or will everybody crucify him and chase him out of town?

Kolzig-2.96 gaa .901 save%

Esche-1.93 gaa .919 save%

Hackett-2.39 gaa .905 save%

I think we can all agree that Hacketts #'s are trumped up by good team play to start the season. How do you think Hackett or Esche would have faired in Washington?

I think Kolzig would be a good short term solution, but I don't want to see another Oates deal.

Rex88 01-24-2004 08:11 AM

DKF
Points well taken and I agree the gaa would go up for our guys and Hack would have likely a sub.900 %. I think Esche would see his gaa up but % would only drop some and liekly be higher than the others - speculation only.
Problem is that Kolzig is not a "short" term solution, his contract is 6+mill through 05-06 thus telling Esche "thanks for backing me up for the next three years".
I think going with Esche is the right decision as long as he does not really fold in the next 6 weeks.
If he does not play very well in the playoffs and the rest of the team does, well, then we start to look for options -
Bulin may not have his option picked up.
Trades for others.
WHo knows what will be available after the CBA.
God forbid we try to develop a goalie to get a shot.
I always like trades like Calgary and SJ did to get a young guy for low price in teams with gluts and taking a chance - will Ottowa be there with Emery, Prusek and Lalime? They could use a tough guy - although we all hate trades to competitors but that is just an example and more likely to happen with a Western team.

GKJ 01-24-2004 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyHigh
I am the only one that wants to see Anterro Nittymaki get a start, just to see how he does?

no you're not.


it's not to showcase though, he's a good goalie prospect we need to keep

RoDu 01-24-2004 10:53 AM

if we start to play well, evrynight, give Antero a start against a poor team, maybe at home as we play better there, and if he fares well, give him more down the road


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