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-   -   Toivonen is crap... (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=464460)

rawrmachine 01-11-2008 08:37 PM

Toivonen is crap...
 
i'm starting to think Boston won that deal, even if Soderberg never makes it to America.

Toivonen is way too inconsistent to be a good NHL Starting goalie.

General Veers 01-11-2008 08:39 PM

This thread is crap.

Irish Blues 01-11-2008 08:41 PM

Holy cow ... is this what we have to look forward to? You really think the Bruins win the trade even if Soderberg never makes the jump over?

Just .... wow.

rawrmachine 01-11-2008 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarthVTEC (Post 11994797)
This thread is crap.

Why? because it's truthful? At least present an argument as to why you disagree with me. Toivonen can't make the routine saves necessary to be a good goalie.

General Veers 01-11-2008 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rawrmachine (Post 11994854)
Why? because it's truthful? At least present an argument as to why you disagree with me. Toivonen can't make the routine saves necessary to be a good goalie.

He's 23 for God's sake! He's had twice as many good performances as bad ones. He even kept us in this game when we were flat early.

StLooFrenchy 01-11-2008 08:46 PM

Toivs had a crap game. That's all.

BluesDarb 01-11-2008 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irish Blues (Post 11994835)
Holy cow ... is this what we have to look forward to? You really think the Bruins win the trade even if Soderberg never makes the jump over?

Just .... wow.

I've obviously been critical of Toivy(see GDT) but I'm not going to be a fool and say that sort of thing.

If Soderberg stays in Europe, a warm body is more valuable than him....

If Toivy doesn't recover, and Carl comes over, we got hosed.

Hopefully Toivy can break out of this slump, he is still young, but man was that a poorly played game.

General Veers 01-11-2008 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rawrmachine (Post 11994771)
i'm starting to think Boston won that deal, even if Soderberg never makes it to America.

Toivonen is way too inconsistent to be a good NHL Starting goalie.

This shows either a clear lack of knowledge regarding the game or a knee-jerk reaction from a bandwagon jumper.

Stealth JD 01-11-2008 08:48 PM

He was fine until the 3rd period. It's obvious though that Legace is that much better. He's a servicable backup, and hopefully can get stronger....but if Manny goes down for any extended period of time, the Blues are in trouble.

Irish Blues 01-11-2008 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rawrmachine (Post 11994854)
Why? because it's truthful? At least present an argument as to why you disagree with me. Toivonen can't make the routine saves necessary to be a good goalie.

Perhaps you missed early in the game where Toivonen stoned Nash with a glove save at point-blank range. Perhaps you missed how the Blues simply let the Blue Jackets skate at will all over the offensive zone for much of the back half of the 1st period and most of the 2nd period, where Toivonen was the only reason it wasn't worse than 3-1.

Yes, Toivonen had a couple of bad goals - but the way they played tonight [nothing on a pair of 5-on-3 PPs], they were damn lucky to get it back to 3-3. If Toivonen was as crappy as some would have us believe, it would have been a bad reminder of the Colorado game a month ago.

That said ... if you go back to when we made that deal, was it with the goal of Toivonen being the #1 guy here this year? Nope. Next year? Nope. The goal was to get someone else in the goaltending mix to provide real competition for Schwarz and Bacashihua and find someone who could be a capable backup behind Legace. I've looked back at threads before December 9, 2007 and I don't see anyone other than Bruins fans saying that Toivonen sucked ... but a Colorado game where no one showed up in front of him, a shootout loss to Edmonton, an overtime loss to Dallas, an overtime loss to Edmonton, and then tonight's loss where the team struggled and all of a sudden Toivonen sucks.

As I said earlier ... wow.

BluesDarb 01-11-2008 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackmans Domain (Post 11994949)
He was fine until the 3rd period. It's obvious though that Legace is that much better. He's a servicable backup, and hopefully can get stronger....but if Manny goes down for any extended period of time, the Blues are in trouble.

Manny has played his ass off this year...and 1/2 of last year too.

He's the definition of the silly saying "it ain't the size of the dog in the fight; it's the size of the fight in the dog"

whatarush123 01-11-2008 08:57 PM

Actually...I am neither a fan of Boston or St. Louis but even I laughed when you guys traded for Toivonen. I would have stuck with Bachisuiha(spelling???) he has the higher upside and I thought played well for you guys at the end of last season. Toivonen has many of opprotunites to earn a starting spot and failed on multiple occassions. He is a decent backup nothing to get excited about.

General Veers 01-11-2008 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatarush123 (Post 11995074)
Actually...I am neither a fan of Boston or St. Louis but even I laughed when you guys traded for Toivonen. I would have stuck with Bachisuiha(spelling???) he has the higher upside and I thought played well for you guys at the end of last season. Toivonen has many of opprotunites to earn a starting spot and failed on multiple occassions. He is a decent backup nothing to get excited about.

Well, that's all we NEED him to be this year,a decent backup. He's got time to blossom, and if he doesn't, we have options!

BluesDarb 01-11-2008 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatarush123 (Post 11995074)
Actually...I am neither a fan of Boston or St. Louis but even I laughed when you guys traded for Toivonen. I would have stuck with Bachisuiha(spelling???) he has the higher upside and I thought played well for you guys at the end of last season. Toivonen has many of opprotunites to earn a starting spot and failed on multiple occassions. He is a decent backup nothing to get excited about.

With all of Toivy's flaws I still feel better with him than Cash.

You want opportunities to win a starting job? Look no further than Jason.

Checker* 01-11-2008 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatarush123 (Post 11995074)
Actually...I am neither a fan of Boston or St. Louis but even I laughed when you guys traded for Toivonen. I would have stuck with Bachisuiha(spelling???) he has the higher upside and I thought played well for you guys at the end of last season. Toivonen has many of opprotunites to earn a starting spot and failed on multiple occassions. He is a decent backup nothing to get excited about.

I agree with this

I've yet to see how Toivonen is any upgrade over Bacashihua on the ice. Although I suspect there must have been off-ice issues with Cash that led to him never really getting a fair shot here.

Their ages are similar
Both Bacashihua and Toivonen could play well in stretches
Both can make exciting difficult saves
Both could also be lit up on the scoreboard for some 5 and 6 goal games
Both could make easy saves an adventure by being out of position

Irish Blues 01-11-2008 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatarush123 (Post 11995074)
I would have stuck with Bachisuiha(spelling???) he has the higher upside and I thought played well for you guys at the end of last season.

Respectfully, the team disagreed; his inability to step up in camp when it was made abundantly clear that he had the chance to earn the backup spot on the Blues and his attitude when sent to Peoria suggests that even if he has the tools, he has neither the heart nor the disposition to become a bona fide NHL goalie.

BluesDarb 01-11-2008 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checker (Post 11995172)
I agree with this

I've yet to see how Toivonen is any upgrade over Bacashihua on the ice. Although I suspect there must have been off-ice issues with Cash that led to him never really getting a fair shot here.

Their ages are similar
Both Bacashihua and Toivonen could play well in stretches
Both can make exciting difficult saves
Both could also be lit up on the scoreboard for some 5 and 6 goal games
Both could make easy saves an adventure by being out of position

Cash got more than a fair shot here. The "starter" ahead of him struggled mightily and he never, ever took charge to earn the spot.

Both he and Sanford got more than their fair share of time here, and I'm glad both are gone.

And Toivy is clearly better than Cash....if you don't believe that I don't know what to tell ya, since Cash is in the AHL and even with Colorado's goaltending issues isn't even going to get a sniff at a callup.

Irish Blues 01-11-2008 09:11 PM

Cash is also injured [went down early in a game December 14] and there's no timeline on his return from what I can find. That'll make getting a callup even tougher.

Checker* 01-11-2008 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluesDarb (Post 11995229)
Cash got more than a fair shot here. The "starter" ahead of him struggled mightily and he never, ever took charge to earn the spot.

Both he and Sanford got more than their fair share of time here, and I'm glad both are gone.

And Toivy is clearly better than Cash....if you don't believe that I don't know what to tell ya, since Cash is in the AHL and even with Colorado's goaltending issues isn't even going to get a sniff at a callup.


Clearly better than Cash...

Ummm, I know the stats don't tell the whole story, but I think they would beg to make things a little less clear. Also, you could get the opinion of Bruins fans who have watched Hannu, or just watch both play for a few stretches.

As far as Cash getting his fair shot, I disagree. Before we traded him, others on here wanted Cash to get more of a look given how well he could play at times. As soon as we trade him away...people like you choose to rewrite history

BluesDarb 01-11-2008 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irish Blues (Post 11995288)
Cash is also injured [went down early in a game December 14] and there's no timeline on his return from what I can find. That'll make getting a callup even tougher.

So much for even a 1% chance at that 7th round pick. :shakehead

whatarush123 01-11-2008 09:31 PM

I agree with everybodys points but with Toivonen, he will never be better than what he is now. A 3rd string backup, a career AHL'er in my book. I understand Cash's downside but at times I still saw a greater upside. Cash has deserved what has come to him in Lake Erie. I wouldnt throw either guy a parade though.

RocheBag 01-11-2008 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checker (Post 11995378)
Clearly better than Cash...

Ummm, I know the stats don't tell the whole story, but I think they would beg to make things a little less clear. Also, you could get the opinion of Bruins fans who have watched Hannu, or just watch both play for a few stretches.

As far as Cash getting his fair shot, I disagree. Before we traded him, others on here wanted Cash to get more of a look given how well he could play at times. As soon as we trade him away...people like you choose to rewrite history

Bruins fan here, I have never seen Cash play once, but here are my thoughts on Hannu. He was one of my favorite players for his time in Boston, he was supposed to claim the starter's job last year but Dave Lewis hates anyone under 30. He outperformed Thomas in their first starts (which were supposed to decide the starter), and then Lewis proceeded to play Thomas the next 8 or 9 games straight while Hannu rotted on the bench. Hannu then rode the bench and was up and down to the AHL all year long.

That clearly messed up Hannu's convidence, and I think that has been a big part of his struggles. He tends to play too deep in his net (not sure if he's still doing this with you guys), and he relies on the belly-flop-splits too much (I know he still does this). He has all the athlitic ability in the world, but he lacks technique and positioning (not uncommon for a Goaltender of his age). He definately has all the tools to become a great Goalie, but with his confidence issues and instability, most Bruins fans started to doubt it would ever happen.

If he pans out you guys could have a great one on your hands, but he's going to have to work out some problems in his head first.

whatarush123 01-11-2008 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocheBag (Post 11995699)
Bruins fan here, I have never seen Cash play once, but here are my thoughts on Hannu. He was one of my favorite players for his time in Boston, he was supposed to claim the starter's job last year but Dave Lewis hates anyone under 30. He outperformed Thomas in their first starts (which were supposed to decide the starter), and then Lewis proceeded to play Thomas the next 8 or 9 games straight while Hannu rotted on the bench. Hannu then rode the bench and was up and down to the AHL all year long.

That clearly messed up Hannu's convidence, and I think that has been a big part of his struggles. He tends to play too deep in his net (not sure if he's still doing this with you guys), and he relies on the belly-flop-splits too much (I know he still does this). He has all the athlitic ability in the world, but he lacks technique and positioning (not uncommon for a Goaltender of his age). He definately has all the tools to become a great Goalie, but with his confidence issues and instability, most Bruins fans started to doubt it would ever happen.

If he pans out you guys could have a great one on your hands, but he's going to have to work out some problems in his head first.

Yeah, I know he's 23 so speaking of 23 year old goalies...Hannu and Fleury...You tell me who the better is, was and always will be. When it comes to Thomas, once Thomas found his groove, it doesnt matter his age, I still trust him over Hannu. Unless he has a nice streak going if Legace goes down then my mind might change.

Irish Blues 01-11-2008 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatarush123 (Post 11995804)
Yeah, I know he's 23 so speaking of 23 year old goalies...Hannu and Fleury...You tell me who the better is, was and always will be.

To be fair:
-- Fleury has always played the North American style of hockey, played in the NHL at 18 and is in his 4th NHL season - 3 of those as the full-time starter. While he was 40-16-9 last year, his 2.83 GAA and .906 save% were nothing to write home about.
-- Toivonen didn't play in North America until '03-04, spent half of '05-06 on Injured Reserve, was asked to be the #1 guy in '06-07 to start after missing half the previous season, and spent '06-07 on the Providence-Boston shuttle alternating between starter and backup.

Figure out a way to put both of them on the same level, and then we can talk.

execwrite 01-12-2008 05:21 AM

Looks like this will be JD's one great mistake this year. Blues need a veteran backup. Toivonen is not the right guy for the job.

He needs at least another full seaon in the AHL. The skill is there but his positioning is terrible and he clearly lacks confidence, just like the Boston fans are telling us.

JD has to fix this now. He needs to find a veteran backup and get Toivonen down to Peoria pronto.

The Blues can't live with this goalie setup because the schedule is going to be brutal very soon. They need a backup goalie.


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