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-   -   What if: Kharlamov in the NHL? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=466970)

u8mylife47 01-18-2008 10:34 AM

What if: Kharlamov in the NHL?
 
What if Valery Kharlamov started and ended his career in the NHL, how do you think he would have done? What kind of point totals would he have accumulated?

I think he had the potential to rival guys like Gretzky in point production.

One of the greatest offensive talents to ever play the game.

hockeydadx2* 01-18-2008 10:49 AM

You are assuming that Bobby Clarke could resist breaking his ankle on a regular basis, correct?

Crosbyfan 01-18-2008 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u8mylife47 (Post 12089702)
What if Valery Kharlamov started and ended his career in the NHL, how do you think he would have done? What kind of point totals would he have accumulated?

I think he had the potential to rival guys like Gretzky in point production.

One of the greatest offensive talents to ever play the game.

Poetry on ice. Definitely in his prime he was as good as Gretzky is now.

Dark Shadows 01-18-2008 10:57 AM

Rival gretzky? Not likely. Put up points like, say, Hull or Bossy? Probably.

The whole Bobby Clarke breaking his ankle thing was an unlikely scenario. Kharlamov was the most physcial forward on the russian squad, and first to stick up for his teammates whenever the situation arose. He tied for the lead in Penalty minutes for the russian because he was targetted so much by Canadian players. Tough as nails, and very tough to knock off the puck. He just kind of bended, but did not fall if he received a big clean hit and kept going, and if you got dirty, he would not back down.

it took a premeditated ankle breaking Baseball swing ordered by the coach, which would likely get you a long suspension today if you tried it on Crosby, to stop him, and Kharlamov still continued playing on a broken foot.

Nalyd Psycho 01-18-2008 05:33 PM

Multiple 50-60 goal seasons. a couple goal scoring titles and point scoring titles. Would have been a peer of Esposito and Lafluer in scoring races and the best LW of the 70's.

MXD 01-18-2008 06:46 PM

Depending when he gets on the NHL...let's say he comes here past Summit Series. He probably NEVER reaches the 700 pts mark.
A few 90-100 pts seasons, and a brutal fall around 30.

IF he adapts well. My hypothesis considers he did so.

Dark Shadows 01-18-2008 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 12096477)
Depending when he gets on the NHL...let's say he comes here past Summit Series. He probably NEVER reaches the 700 pts mark.
A few 90-100 pts seasons, and a brutal fall around 30.

IF he adapts well. My hypothesis considers he did so.

The original post was if he "Started and ended" in the NHL, so we can assume from 18 years old forward.

MXD 01-18-2008 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thornton_19 (Post 12098622)
The original post was if he "Started and ended" in the NHL, so we can assume from 18 years old forward.

Okay then. Close to 1000.

arrbez 01-18-2008 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u8mylife47 (Post 12089702)
What if Valery Kharlamov started and ended his career in the NHL, how do you think he would have done? What kind of point totals would he have accumulated?

I think he had the potential to rival guys like Gretzky in point production.

One of the greatest offensive talents to ever play the game.

I think people vastly overestimate his offensive abilities if they think he was as good as Gretzky or Lemieux. It's not like he was walking away with scoring title after scoring title back in Russia. From the information I have, he only lead the Soviet League in scoring once, and never lead an international tournament in scoring. As far as I can tell, Vladimir Petrov was actually the more productive player.

He was a great player, but I think his mystique has gotten out of hand.

Avy* 01-19-2008 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arrbez (Post 12099379)
I think people vastly overestimate his offensive abilities if they think he was as good as Gretzky or Lemieux. It's not like he was walking away with scoring title after scoring title back in Russia. From the information I have, he only lead the Soviet League in scoring once, and never lead an international tournament in scoring. As far as I can tell, Vladimir Petrov was actually the more productive player.

He was a great player, but I think his mystique has gotten out of hand.

Not true.

bruinsfan46 01-19-2008 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avy (Post 12103326)
Not true.

I believe you, because with all the tournies the Soviets won Kharlamov had to lead at least one in scoring. But if you're gonna say not true, some names of the tournaments that he did lead in scoring would be nice.

arrbez 01-19-2008 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avy (Post 12103326)
Not true.

You're right, he lead the Olympics in scoring in 1972. Either way though...

MXD 01-19-2008 08:42 AM

... Mikhailov would have been the best NHL from that team.

Avy* 01-19-2008 09:02 AM

Somebody need to stop this "soviet legend against not even the top-25 NHL player all time" madness. It's like "Sedelnikov vs. Potvin" on random russian board.

Dark Shadows 01-19-2008 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 12103409)
... Mikhailov would have been the best NHL from that team.

Sorry. Kharlamov was better. The best defenseman was Valery Vasiliev. He could have given Fetisov a run for his money as best russian Dman ever

MXD 01-19-2008 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thornton_19 (Post 12103606)
Sorry. Kharlamov was better. The best defenseman was Valery Vasiliev. He could have given Fetisov a run for his money as best russian Dman ever

Kharlamov was indeed flashier, but who ended up scoring more goals and being more resilient in the end...

Dark Shadows 01-19-2008 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 12104029)
Kharlamov was indeed flashier, but who ended up scoring more goals and being more resilient in the end...

Uh, getting an ankle breaking baseball swing to the ankle would have taken just about ANYBODY out and wrecked their effectiveness. Has nothing to do with resilience. In fact, Kharlamov was probably the most physical and resilient player on his team as well as their best forward. If they had done the same to Mikhailov, he would have been done too.

Claiming he was not a resilient because our team Canada intentionally maimed him would be like saying Mario was not resilient because he got cancer. Both were inevitably debilitating situations.

MXD 01-19-2008 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thornton_19 (Post 12104763)
Uh, getting an ankle breaking baseball swing to the ankle would have taken just about ANYBODY out and wrecked their effectiveness. Has nothing to do with resilience. In fact, Kharlamov was probably the most physical and resilient player on his team as well as their best forward. If they had done the same to Mikhailov, he would have been done too.

Claiming he was not a resilient because our team Canada intentionally maimed him would be like saying Mario was not resilient because he got cancer. Both were inevitably debilitating situations.

I was referring to their career stats. Kharlamov outscored Mikhailov in the Summit Series anyways.

Dark Shadows 01-19-2008 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 12104818)
I was referring to their career stats. Kharlamov outscored Mikhailov in the Summit Series anyways.

Ohhhhh.

Well in that case, its still inaccurate because Kharlamov was in a career ruining car crash in 1976 right in his prime which severely hampered him for the rest of his days. He was never the same after that crash.

Has nothing to do with resilience and everything to do with bad luck.

Even more bad luck was him dying at age 33 in another car crash in 1981.

Zine 01-19-2008 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thornton_19 (Post 12105696)
Ohhhhh.

Well in that case, its still inaccurate because Kharlamov was in a career ruining car crash in 1976 right in his prime which severely hampered him for the rest of his days. He was never the same after that crash.

Has nothing to do with resilience and everything to do with bad luck.

Even more bad luck was him dying at age 33 in another car crash in 1981.

Yep. That accident broke Kharlamov's leg when he was in the middle of his prime.....was never the same after that.


Another guy who would have done some serious damage in the NHL was Yakushev. Yakushev was huge and tailor made for the NHL game. I'd even go as far as saying the big ice and Soviet style actually hindered his effectiveness to some degree. He was always much more dominant against North American teams than he ever was in the Soviet League.

Stephen 01-19-2008 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u8mylife47 (Post 12089702)
What if Valery Kharlamov started and ended his career in the NHL, how do you think he would have done? What kind of point totals would he have accumulated?

I think he had the potential to rival guys like Gretzky in point production.

One of the greatest offensive talents to ever play the game.

He probably wouldn't have done it. Not saying he didn't have the talent to, but I think the old Soviet trained players were probably not built for statistical domination over 2 decades like their elite North American counterparts. Look at supremely talented guys like Fedorov, Mogilny and Kovalev, who had excellent minds for the game and had more physical tools than Wayne Gretzky. All of these guys had very average statistical seasons in their careers.

BM67 01-19-2008 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thornton_19 (Post 12105696)
Ohhhhh.

Well in that case, its still inaccurate because Kharlamov was in a career ruining car crash in 1976 right in his prime which severely hampered him for the rest of his days. He was never the same after that crash.

Has nothing to do with resilience and everything to do with bad luck.

Even more bad luck was him dying at age 33 in another car crash in 1981.

Kharlamov had fewer points in the Soviet league over the period from 68-69 to 74-75 than either of Petrov or Mikailov, so it wasn't just a car crash in 76 holding him back from the scoring lead. He topped the line in goals 4 times, assists once (tied), and points 3 times, all 73-74 or earlier.

I think he did better in tournament scoring, but I'd have to dig around to be sure.

TANK200 01-19-2008 05:18 PM

Am I the only one who thinks that Kharlamov was overrated simply because he was able to shock the Canadians in the Summit Series? Of course he was very good, but I see him as a player who would maybe be more comparable to guys like Sakic and Yzerman than to Gretzky. I don't think that he would have been able to put up even nearly as many points as Gretzky. The only player in the Russian league that has ever dominated in near Gretzky-like fashion is Sergei Makarov (scoring champion 9 times, league MVP 8 times). And while Makarov was certainly not bad durnig his time in the NHL, he was not even one of the league's best players. Yes, he was past his peak, but his performance was not even particularly outstanding for his age.

ShawnTHW 01-19-2008 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TANK200 (Post 12109501)
Am I the only one who thinks that Kharlamov was overrated simply because he was able to shock the Canadians in the Summit Series? Of course he was very good, but I see him as a player who would maybe be more comparable to guys like Sakic and Yzerman than to Gretzky. I don't think that he would have been able to put up even nearly as many points as Gretzky. The only player in the Russian league that has ever dominated in near Gretzky-like fashion is Sergei Makarov (scoring champion 9 times, league MVP 8 times). And while Makarov was certainly not bad durnig his time in the NHL, he was not even one of the league's best players. Yes, he was past his peak, but his performance was not even particularly outstanding for his age.

For one, Kharlamov was not overrated. I just installed Verizon FiOS in my TV, for those of you who know what that is. I am now getting this Russian channel that my dad paid for. They had an entire special on him with all the former Soviet players (Tretiak, Fetisov, etc.) talking about him and how he revolutionized the game. He is considered one of the best players of all-time in the game of hockey, and in Russia, he is considered the best player or second best to Tretiak. Makarov was good as well, but Kharlamov changed the game and took such control of the game like Gretzky did in most cases.

Nalyd Psycho 01-20-2008 01:08 AM

Kharlamov is overrated because he cannot be ignored when he's on the ice. He's an attention grabber, an absolutely stunning player. But for effectiveness, it's hard to say he's clearly better than other Soviet greats like Firsov, Mikhailov and Makarov.

And for the record, I'm a big backer of Vasiliev and will argue that he could have a spot in the top 20 d-men of all time, he is not Fetisov. There is a fair drop between Fetisov and Vasiliev & Ragulin.


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