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not quite yoda 02-01-2004 09:38 PM

Montreal-Ottawa/Carolina offers
 
Supposing that if they were interested in dealing any of their roster players, I was just wondering if Ottawa would consider this deal.

Koivu for Havlat

Are their market values similar? I am NOT saying that this deal should or will happen... just probing into each of these players' values.

Also, would a

Koivu for Cole + prospect

deal be reasonable or does Carolina consider him as an untouchable?

Egil 02-01-2004 09:41 PM

Ottawa would not consider a Koivu for Havlat deal. Havlat is the better player, the younger player, and the cheaper player.

bleedgreen 02-01-2004 10:04 PM

carolina's situation makes it difficult to say any player is truly untouchable - but i think cole is about as safe as he could be. he pockets very little money, is young, and a valueable part of their team. he is exactly the kind of player they looking for in return in a trade. that would also be the reason i would point to for arguement on acquiring koivu. kouivu is expensive, older, and plays a position that, for now, they really dont need more people at. that may change if they move brindamour, and francis retires. then they would have only staal, vasicek, adams, zigomanis. either way they are rebuilding and wouldnt trade a younger player for an older one...especially an expensive one.
i didnt originally see you had carolina giving up more than just cole. while koivu may be a higher producing forward than cole-i wouldnt do that trade straight up, let alone throw in a prospect/pick.

Jeffrey 02-01-2004 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by espion
Supposing that if they were interested in dealing any of their roster players, I was just wondering if Ottawa would consider this deal.

Koivu for Havlat

Are their market values similar? I am NOT saying that this deal should or will happen... just probing into each of these players' values.

Also, would a

Koivu for Cole + prospect

deal be reasonable or does Carolina consider him as an untouchable?

wtf !! this **** ...
koivu is going no where soon !!

not quite yoda 02-01-2004 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kryoptix
wtf !! this **** ...
koivu is going no where soon !!

Calm your nerves waco. read the post. it said i was just looking for their market values. stop hallucinating.

Jeffrey 02-01-2004 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by espion
Calm your nerves waco. read the post. it said i was just looking for their market values. stop hallucinating.

im calm but im just tired of koivu proposals :p

Riggins 02-01-2004 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kryoptix
im calm but im just tired of koivu proposals :p

I hear ya.

He was only trying to gauge the players' worth though.

Havlat has more value than Koivu. I would never trade Saku for Cole obviously. He's our captain and best player (other than Jose). I can also see why Carolina would be reluctant since they're (or soon to be) in rebuild mode anyway. No sense in giving up what will be a crucial piece of their future lineup for an older player.

not quite yoda 02-01-2004 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zednik20
I hear ya.

He was only trying to gauge the players' worth though.

Havlat has more value than Koivu. I would never trade Saku for Cole obviously. He's our captain and best player (other than Jose). I can also see why Carolina would be reluctant since they're (or soon to be) in rebuild mode anyway. No sense in giving up what will be a crucial piece of their future lineup for an older player.

With all due respect to Koivu... I was at the Bruins game Saturday and he was anything but Montreal's best player. I am not sure that Montreal can ever win a cup with Ribeiro and Koivu as their two top centres. I am fond of both players, but neither has that "superior player" clout. With the future riding on Ribeiro, Ryder, Bulis, Higgins, Perezhogin, Kastsitstyn and co. at forward... I was wondering if the Habs couldn't acquire yet another forward in that age group (under 25) for Koivu (29).

Kirk Muller 02-02-2004 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by espion
With all due respect to Koivu... I was at the Bruins game Saturday and he was anything but Montreal's best player. I am not sure that Montreal can ever win a cup with Ribeiro and Koivu as their two top centres. I am fond of both players, but neither has that "superior player" clout. With the future riding on Ribeiro, Ryder, Bulis, Higgins, Perezhogin, Kastsitstyn and co. at forward... I was wondering if the Habs couldn't acquire yet another forward in that age group (under 25) for Koivu (29).


And who is going to lead this young team, certainly not Ribeiro seeing as how he is very inconsistent and still has much maturing to do in attitude and work ethic. Zednik, well he is getting older so I guess fans will want him gone in a year or so, Bulis not a leader type, Souray, well I am glad he is playing well, but his health is as much or not more of a concern than Koivu.

Youngsters need veteran leadership and stability. Getting rid of a captain, leader, inspirational player sends a terrible message about the organization. Youngsters need a winning environment, something Montreal is starting to build, and yes that is with Koivu leading the way. Trading Koivu would be another step back, and frankly Montreal will never get market value for him.

not quite yoda 02-02-2004 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash13
And who is going to lead this young team, certainly not Ribeiro seeing as how he is very inconsistent and still has much maturing to do in attitude and work ethic.

The kids will take the torch and run with it. Just like what is going to happen in Columbus and Atlanta and Ottawa. There is no Kovalchuck, Heatley or Nash on this team but there is going to be far more depth and that does alot of good. The point is, although there are alot of GOOD young forwards, there isn't realy a top notch "future" first line within the organization. That is why I would wish Gainey would try to make moves to acquire two of those pieces. One soon and the other... say around June 23rd?

And by the way, Ribeiro's work ethic is fine and he has matured since being drafted. He is not captain material but the kid can play and is the team's offensive MVP for December. Nevertheless, the point you are trying to make is similar to my initial argument: Montreal needs new elements to form the first line. I figure some of may be acquiriable via trade.

Kirk Muller 02-02-2004 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by espion
The kids will take the torch and run with it. Just like what is going to happen in Columbus and Atlanta and Ottawa. There is no Kovalchuck, Heatley or Nash on this team but there is going to be far more depth and that does alot of good. The point is, although there are alot of GOOD young forwards, there isn't realy a top notch "future" first line within the organization. That is why I would wish Gainey would try to make moves to acquire two of those pieces. One soon and the other... say around June 23rd?


And that is what the ever rebuilding Flames teams thought would happen, or the Florida Panthers, or Edmonton who continually has remained a marginal team because of having to trade veteran top players. The difference is, they have to because of money, Montreal doesn't.

So you want Montreal to get a "future" first line player in the likes of Nash, Heatley and Kovalchuk. As you know every team in the league is trying to unload these types of players, and willing to give up the first overall pick to boot.

not quite yoda 02-02-2004 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash13
And that is what the ever rebuilding Flames teams thought would happen, or the Florida Panthers, or Edmonton who continually has remained a marginal team because of having to trade veteran top players. The difference is, they have to because of money, Montreal doesn't.

So you want Montreal to get a "future" first line player in the likes of Nash, Heatley and Kovalchuk. As you know every team in the league is trying to unload these types of players, and willing to give up the first overall pick to boot.

I never asked for Nash, Heatley and Kovalchuck. I said that Montreal doesn't have them. I ask for Havlat or Cole who are a cut or two below. And I am not looking for the first overall pick. Schremp and Wolski will be available at the 3-6 spots. Someone must be willing to deal for the right price and Montreal has the youth to be able to move up from 18th to 5th. You know it's not just the 1st overall pick who turns out to be a 1st line player. Ovechkin may be tops but others will be good too. Horton went 3rd in 2003; Pitkannen went 4th in 2002; Spezza went 2nd in 2001. All those guys are going to be top players on their teams and they were all picks that were traded for. So trades do happen.

not quite yoda 02-02-2004 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash13
And that is what the ever rebuilding Flames teams thought would happen, or the Florida Panthers, or Edmonton who continually has remained a marginal team because of having to trade veteran top players.

Flames had bad GMs and didn't know who to draft or trade for. Panthers never had a great team on paper. In a way, they have always resembled a building-expansion-team. Since 2000, they have acquired great young talent and will be one of the better teams eventualy. Edmonton have always been a good young team with potential. It is when their potential broke through that they had to trade their core... Like you said, that won't happen in Montreal since they have the cash.

I am confident that Gainey will know who to draft and what young players to acquire via trade. That is why Montreal's future is with their recent draft picks, not with their 1993 draft picks.

Kirk Muller 02-02-2004 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by espion
I never asked for Nash, Heatley and Kovalchuck. I said that Montreal doesn't have them. I ask for Havlat or Cole who are a cut or two below. And I am not looking for the first overall pick. Schremp and Wolski will be available at the 3-6 spots. Someone must be willing to deal for the right price and Montreal has the youth to be able to move up from 18th to 5th. You know it's not just the 1st overall pick who turns out to be a 1st line player. Ovechkin may be tops but others will be good too. Horton went 3rd in 2003; Pitkannen went 4th in 2002; Spezza went 2nd in 2001. All those guys are going to be top players on their teams and they were all picks that were traded for. So trades do happen.

I know you said you didn't want Nash and company per say, but you eluded to the LIKES of these players whether through the draft or otherwise. Think for a second, why would a team who is drafting high, when they are usually the types to be rebuilding or building up like Columbus, trade away a top five pick for Koivu who is almost 30 unless Montreal sweetens the pot with a top prospect. Its kind of ridiculous to trade your number one centre and say a Chris Higgins or Perezhogin for another prospect who MIGHT turn out better. That is all they are, a prospect. And in many drafts, a guy drafted later in the first round often become as good or if not better than many top five picks.

Rookies need people to teach them. It is also major difference between a rookie in Montreal and a rookie in Atlanta or Columbus. The difference is all about expectations. Put Perezhogin, Higgins, Hainsey, Komisarek, Kastsitsyn etc in Montreal with no established veteran leader and top player, you will see them eaten alive by fans and media.

You seem to expect that all prospects will turn out and be able to step in and fulfill their full potential.

Kirk Muller 02-02-2004 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by espion
Flames had bad GMs and didn't know who to draft or trade for.

And you know how Montreals picks will turn out. The Flames picks always looked good at the time.

Quote:

Panthers never had a great team on paper. In a way, they have always resembled a building-expansion-team. Since 2000, they have acquired great young talent and will be one of the better teams eventualy.
Eventually. When? Who knows. If ever. Montreal is currently a playoff team with youngsters like Ryder and Ribeiro taking regular shifts. Let them establish themselves before handing over torches

Quote:

Edmonton have always been a good young team with potential. It is when their potential broke through that they had to trade their core... Like you said, that won't happen in Montreal since they have the cash.
And so why does Montreal do an Edmonton if they have the resources to keep Koivu? Why wouldn't you keep your best player and captain and develop chemistry and stability on the ice and throughout the organization if you can afford to. This is how Detroit, Colorado, NJ stay on top for such long periods.

Quote:

I am confident that Gainey will know who to draft and what young players to acquire via trade. That is why Montreal's future is with their recent draft picks, not with their 1993 draft picks.
And yes Montreals future is with their 2010 first round pick as well. Always looking to the future kills what chances there are for today

TwineSniper 02-02-2004 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by espion
With all due respect to Koivu... I was at the Bruins game Saturday and he was anything but Montreal's best player. I am not sure that Montreal can ever win a cup with Ribeiro and Koivu as their two top centres. I am fond of both players, but neither has that "superior player" clout. With the future riding on Ribeiro, Ryder, Bulis, Higgins, Perezhogin, Kastsitstyn and co. at forward... I was wondering if the Habs couldn't acquire yet another forward in that age group (under 25) for Koivu (29).



This is getting ridiculous.

Trading Koivu would be like ripping the heart out of our organization. IT"S JUST NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

I am in no way saying he is the most valuable player in the league, I know he isn't, but for Montreal to even begin to think of the notion of trading Koivu, it better be top dollar offer coming our way.

As far as I am concerned, these "Gauging a players value thread" is a thin disguise at pissing on a player that pissed you off with a bad shift, or whatever.

here's a novel idea, if you wanna "gauge someone's value" go with Perreault, or Dackell, or Kilger...SOMEONE ACTUALLY ON THE MARKET!!! I know it's a crazy idea, but...

I am starting to ramble here, so in closing...

Welcome to my Ignore List, Espion....bonehead.

Firthbird 02-02-2004 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The~Franchise
This is getting ridiculous.

Trading Koivu would be like ripping the heart out of our organization. IT"S JUST NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

I am in no way saying he is the most valuable player in the league, I know he isn't, but for Montreal to even begin to think of the notion of trading Koivu, it better be top dollar offer coming our way.

As far as I am concerned, these "Gauging a players value thread" is a thin disguise at pissing on a player that pissed you off with a bad shift, or whatever.

here's a novel idea, if you wanna "gauge someone's value" go with Perreault, or Dackell, or Kilger...SOMEONE ACTUALLY ON THE MARKET!!! I know it's a crazy idea, but...

I am starting to ramble here, so in closing...

Welcome to my Ignore List, Espion....bonehead.


Exactly, this will never happen. Koivu is the heart and soul of the team! Koivu is here to stay until Retirement! :yo:

not quite yoda 02-02-2004 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash13
I know you said you didn't want Nash and company per say, but you eluded to the LIKES of these players whether through the draft or otherwise. Think for a second, why would a team who is drafting high, when they are usually the types to be rebuilding or building up like Columbus, trade away a top five pick for Koivu who is almost 30.

Not exactly what I said. I never said Koivu for a top 5 pick. I said Koivu for a young player (like the Havlats and Coles). Then, at the draft make a second move which would revolve more around prospects already in the organization. It is POSSIBLE that a team like Chicago or Columbus would move their pick for a couple of more mature prospects and a later 1st rounder... I said it's POSSIBLE.

not quite yoda 02-02-2004 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firthbird
Exactly, this will never happen. Koivu is the heart and soul of the team! Koivu is here to stay until Retirement! :yo:

This will never happen? 99% OF THREADS STARTED ON THESE BOARDS NEVER HAPPEN!!! now go on every other thread and say that that will never happen either.

Sorry but as of right now Theodore is who the team is built around and depends upon. Not Koivu. Koivu is the first line centre but this team is no offensive machine. Koivu does not have nearly the effect on game results as Theodore does. Koivu has heart but Theodore is the soul of the team.

not quite yoda 02-02-2004 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The~Franchise
This is getting ridiculous.

Trading Koivu would be like ripping the heart out of our organization. IT"S JUST NOT GONNA HAPPEN!




here's a novel idea, if you wanna "gauge someone's value" go with Perreault, or Dackell, or Kilger...SOMEONE ACTUALLY ON THE MARKET!!! I know it's a crazy idea, but...

Welcome to my Ignore List, Espion....bonehead.

:yo:

Yeah you're a genius! let's improve the team by trading Perreault, Kilger and Dackell! 3 players who have ZERO trade value and who could easily pass through waivers right now. You' re right man. You can't acquire a good player by giving up a good asset. Of course not. This team is going to improve by trading Perreault for a 3rd rounder, Dackell for future considerations ,and Kilger for a bottle of aspirin. Note sarcasm.

Jeffrey 02-02-2004 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by espion
:yo:

Yeah you're a genius! let's improve the team by trading Perreault, Kilger and Dackell! 3 players who have ZERO trade value and who could easily pass through waivers right now. You' re right man. You can't acquire a good player by giving up a good asset. Of course not. This team is going to improve by trading Perreault for a 3rd rounder, Dackell for future considerations ,and Kilger for a bottle of aspirin. :shakehead

exactly !!
trading koivu is nothing more than killing the franchise !!
better wait until our prospects are ready ...

Kirk Muller 02-02-2004 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by espion
This will never happen? 99% OF THREADS STARTED ON THESE BOARDS NEVER HAPPEN!!! now go on every other thread and say that that will never happen either.

Sorry but as of right now Theodore is who the team is built around and depends upon. Not Koivu. Koivu is the first line centre but this team is no offensive machine. Koivu does not have nearly the effect on game results as Theodore does. Koivu has heart but Theodore is the soul of the team.


But thats not what was said, Koivu is the "heart and soul of the team," major difference. I think meaning Koivu is what players in the organization should thrive to be, and the guy who is going to where his heart on his sleeve for this organization. He bleeds Canadiens blood, something that Theodore hasn't necessarily shown.

Now Theodore is the foundation which is fine, but the identity of the Canadiens is personified in Koivu.

Btw, of course Theodore has more effect on a game than Koivu. The same is said for every goalie in the league.

bleedgreen 02-02-2004 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kryoptix
exactly !!
trading koivu is nothing more than killing the franchise !!
better wait until our prospects are ready ...

do the posters who are blasting the notion of trading koivu ( iagree) think that saku would get a return worthy of trading him? im saying that as great a player as he has been - his trade value isnt as high as some of the proposed deals suggest.

Kirk Muller 02-02-2004 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by espion
Not exactly what I said. I never said Koivu for a top 5 pick. I said Koivu for a young player (like the Havlats and Coles). Then, at the draft make a second move which would revolve more around prospects already in the organization. It is POSSIBLE that a team like Chicago or Columbus would move their pick for a couple of more mature prospects and a later 1st rounder... I said it's POSSIBLE.


Sorry if I misinterpreted, we were talking Koivu for the most part so I assumed that was your idea.

But you also must realize that there is a major difference between Cole and Havlat. Night and day difference. One is going to be a star while the other might be a decent second liner.

Montreal has some mature prospects, but they are also going to be counted on to step in next year, something that is not likely for recent draftees. Perreault, Juneau, Dackell, Quintal all probably won't be with Montreal next year. So does Montreal take yet another step back, or let the prospects who they have developed for the last 4 years get a chance to shine and grow with the organization.

I guess it all depends on what you see the organizations plans as.

not quite yoda 02-02-2004 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash13
But thats not what was said, Koivu is the "heart and soul of the team," major difference. I think meaning Koivu is what players in the organization should thrive to be, and the guy who is going to where his heart on his sleeve for this organization. He bleeds Canadiens blood, something that Theodore hasn't necessarily shown.

Now Theodore is the foundation which is fine, but the identity of the Canadiens is personified in Koivu.

Btw, of course Theodore has more effect on a game than Koivu. The same is said for every goalie in the league.

I dunno about that. The best example is that Kovalchuck does more for ATL than Dafoe or Nurminen do. A little different a notion but... in Toronto, the offence starts with Sundin and flows from there. Sundin is the source of the leafs success, more than Belfour IMO. His goalie stats aren't THAT good for a guy who would be "carrying" such a deep pool of talent. With Kiprussof, Turek and Mclennan apparently "sharing" goaltending duties in CGY, I find that Iginla is more of an MVP.

Anyways, my point is that if the goalie was ALWAYS the pivotal player you say he is, then he should be the team MVP EVERY year and with EVERY team. Just isn't the case.


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