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-   -   Poor Koivu (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=492586)

MontrealHabitant 03-15-2008 11:20 PM

Poor Koivu
 
I was reading some fan's post on multiple hockeys board and, it seem's like a huge bunch keep on < whining > about Koivu all the time, they do along with providing hilarious solutions such as retrograding Koivu to the third line and moving up Grabovsky to the 2nd line...


The Fact is...

Koivu has been stuck for YEARS with some weak players on his line or total rookies.
This is the points for players on first line 46 PTS 64 PTS 74 PTS
Look at the first Line A Kostitsyn-Plekanec-Kovalev

Right there, we don't even have a < real > first line...

let's have a look at the second line and the multiple team mates that Koivu had on it.
Koivu: 53 PTS

Ryder 27 PTS
Higgins 45 PTS
S. Kostitsyn 23 PTS
Latendresse 25 PTS

Pretty pathetic,Koivu's 53 PTS this year while playing with this bunch of 3rd/4th liners is awesome to me, not to forget he's on the second line.

Koivu is not a scorer, he's a playmaker( same as Adam Oates), how can fans expect him to reach let's say 80 + points with such n00bs on his line ? Does not even make sense.

Koivu got greats hands ( as seen in shootouts, he's a beast) but you can't expect him to do more then 60 points per season when you stick him with complete rookies.. it's just plain dumb.

MJG 03-15-2008 11:26 PM

Not to bash Koivu cause I have no problem with how he's playing and I feel that he is great in his role as our second line center but, last year, with the same 3rd/4th liner quality linemates, he put up career highs in points and goals. Just sayin. In fact this year he's benefitted by playing with S. Kost, who we can all agree has been the best and most consistent of the so called noobs.

MontrealHabitant 03-15-2008 11:30 PM

Im just saying, every year, he gets insulted, it's never enough, just like you said it's his second season where he's stuck with rookies/weak players, it's likely that he is gonna reach 60 points this year again with 9 games to go, what would happen if he had an established NHL First liner on his line ? He'd easily break the 80 Points mark.

Stephen Locke* 03-15-2008 11:31 PM

Keep in mind that it usually happens with a certain contingent of people(I would hesitate to call them fans)who possess no basic hockey knowledge whatsoever and tends to regularly complain and rip a designated player regardless of his performances in general.It's not fair and reasonable criticism anymore,it's just plain hatred.

Iwishihadacup 03-15-2008 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontrealHabitant (Post 13114220)
I was reading some fan's post on multiple hockeys board and, it seem's like a huge bunch keep on < whining > about Koivu all the time, they do along with providing hilarious solutions such as retrograding Koivu to the third line and moving up Grabovsky to the 2nd line...


The Fact is...

Koivu has been stuck for YEARS with some weak players on his line or total rookies.
This is the points for players on first line 46 PTS 64 PTS 74 PTS
Look at the first Line A Kostitsyn-Plekanec-Kovalev

Right there, we don't even have a < real > first line...

let's have a look at the second line and the multiple team mates that Koivu had on it.
Koivu: 53 PTS

Ryder 27 PTS
Higgins 45 PTS
S. Kostitsyn 23 PTS
Latendresse 25 PTS

Pretty pathetic,Koivu's 53 PTS this year while playing with this bunch of 3rd/4th liners is awesome to me, not to forget he's on the second line.

Koivu is not a scorer, he's a playmaker( same as Adam Oates), how can fans expect him to reach let's say 80 + points with such n00bs on his line ? Does not even make sense.

Koivu got greats hands ( as seen in shootouts, he's a beast) but you can't expect him to do more then 60 points per season when you stick him with complete rookies.. it's just plain dumb.

you're a bit strong on your words but, I like the general idea, some ignorants just like bashing, and it gives them a boner everytime I heard

Sined 03-15-2008 11:48 PM

I think his role is completely misunderstood by most if not all of the Koivu bashers.

In their minds "C" = "Best Player" which should be true for the most part but they also think that Best Player = "Put up tons of goals and points".

While the lack of "in their prime" wingers for him to play with is hurting him statistically, one cannot omit all the other intangibles he bring both on and off the ice.

Bashing Koivu cannot be justified solely on stats, because he brings elements that all successful teams need.

Iwishihadacup 03-15-2008 11:52 PM

to all people that think that the best player of a team must be their captain, take a look at tampa, their captain, tim Taylor is in the injured roster since last year and won't be back this year

Captainship=leadership=ability to make people react by giving example and by attitude=koivu can do it

Munchinator 03-15-2008 11:53 PM

The Koivu bashing is ridiculous. The guys always been a 50-60 point player, he's had 70 like, twice and people run around saying he's "underachieving". This guy gave his entire career to the Canadiens, fought through cancer, and has a visual impairement.

Not to mention he's complete gold in the playoffs, I don't even refer to the "haters" as true fans. It's a ****ing joke and they get on my nerves so much.

DrMailloux 03-15-2008 11:57 PM

Honestly, i have been really disapointed with Koivu this year but eh, he's getting old and he has maybe 3-4 years left before his retirement.

I agree that he has been stuck for quite a time with 2nd/3rd liners but frankly, he has to share responsibility for the disastrous season of his line, Higgins is not entirely responsible for the line's problem and Ryder, well they tryed kostitsyn instead of him and it still is not working very well.

We just can't say that Koivu is not accountable of the production of his line as you said, he his the playmaker. Another thing i can't stand is the bad penality... Evryone knows he his hooking the opponent all the time, the refs knows it, why don't he stop, hooking is simply not allowed anymore, can't he adapt like evryone else did ?

A good center has to make his linemates better and he did it last season, this year, its simply not working at all, however Koivu is a warrior and i expect him to come back in the playoff and play good hockey.... After taking a break since the snow started to fall, i expect him to be in good shape and well rested during the playoff.

lou4gehrig 03-16-2008 12:06 AM

I don't buy the argument that Koivu is forced to play with inexperienced or lesser wingers. He had his chance on the top line with Kovalev and he simply couldn't deliver as well as Pleks. Everybody has played with Koivu and just isn't a top line center. He honestly doesn't deserve to play on the top line.

I think the main problem is he is paid to be a top line center. He acts like he is the focal point of the team. If he accepted his role as the second line center and spent his energy trying to mentor the younger players instead of complaining, then he might increase his level of respect.

Stephen Locke* 03-16-2008 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lou4gehrig (Post 13114784)

I think the main problem is he is paid to be a top line center. He acts like he is the focal point of the team. If he accepted his role as the second line center and spent his energy trying to mentor the younger players instead of complaining, then he might increase his level of respect.

And I don't buy the BS argument that Koivu supposedly thinks or acts like he's the most important player on the team as well.Pure hatefounded speculations out there.He doesn't accept his role?Where you've heard it?Care to officially confirm it?Doesn't spend his energy trying to mentor the young players?He just complains?:biglaugh:No offense,but that's your impressions .Don't turn these into real facts.they're absolutely not.Koivu never put himself above the team in his career in Montreal,he'll always prefer putting the team above his personal accomplishments.Always.He's a very good captain and and a proud warrior.This is just the biggest myth ever created.

What a ridiculous,ignorant post.:banghead:

Iwishihadacup 03-16-2008 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lou4gehrig (Post 13114784)
I don't buy the argument that Koivu is forced to play with inexperienced or lesser wingers. He had his chance on the top line with Kovalev and he simply couldn't deliver as well as Pleks. Everybody has played with Koivu and just isn't a top line center. He honestly doesn't deserve to play on the top line.

I think the main problem is he is paid to be a top line center. He acts like he is the focal point of the team. If he accepted his role as the second line center and spent his energy trying to mentor the younger players instead of complaining, then he might increase his level of respect.

you know, NHL 08 is an interresting game, but let'S keep it to the real game please

Clumsyhab 03-16-2008 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lou4gehrig (Post 13114784)
I don't buy the argument that Koivu is forced to play with inexperienced or lesser wingers. He had his chance on the top line with Kovalev and he simply couldn't deliver as well as Pleks. Everybody has played with Koivu and just isn't a top line center. He honestly doesn't deserve to play on the top line.

I think the main problem is he is paid to be a top line center. He acts like he is the focal point of the team. If he accepted his role as the second line center and spent his energy trying to mentor the younger players instead of complaining, then he might increase his level of respect.

You watch too much 110% my friend.

Habs10Habs 03-16-2008 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lou4gehrig (Post 13114784)
I don't buy the argument that Koivu is forced to play with inexperienced or lesser wingers. He had his chance on the top line with Kovalev and he simply couldn't deliver as well as Pleks. Everybody has played with Koivu and just isn't a top line center. He honestly doesn't deserve to play on the top line.

I think the main problem is he is paid to be a top line center. He acts like he is the focal point of the team. If he accepted his role as the second line center and spent his energy trying to mentor the younger players instead of complaining, then he might increase his level of respect.



Koivu has been the noted "2nd line C" for the majority of the season. Can you explain to me how you feel he has not excepted this or better yet. Please tell us where it was you heard or read that Koivu has been complaining about not being the focal point of the team?

Whitesnake 03-16-2008 12:52 AM

Pretty sure that he's anything but poor....

You're a public figure, you are bashed by some people, big deal...

Really hope that Saku don't care as much as some people in here. It's part of the game.

Stephen Locke* 03-16-2008 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habs10Habs (Post 13114995)
Koivu has been the noted "2nd line C" for the majority of the season. Can you explain to me how you feel he has not excepted this or better yet. Please tell us where it was you heard or read that Koivu has been complaining about not being the focal point of the team?

Don't waste your time,the genius won't comeback to defend the insidious ''arguments'' he settled himself.

Kovalev the great and WEEB are reading this thread FTW!They'll state their respective and previsible opinions about how Koivu is hugely overrated and should be traded to offer the C to Kovalev.:sarcasm:;)

Lone Rogue 03-16-2008 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrMailloux (Post 13114676)
Honestly, i have been really disapointed with Koivu this year but eh, he's getting old and he has maybe 3-4 years left before his retirement.

As of tonight, Saku Koivu is 26th in scoring centres.

Last year, Saku finished the year 20th in scoring centres.

You're disappointed with a 6 place drop?

MontrealHabitant 03-16-2008 01:08 AM

Quote:

I agree that he has been stuck for quite a time with 2nd/3rd liners but frankly, he has to share responsibility for the disastrous season of his line, Higgins is not entirely responsible for the line's problem and Ryder, well they tryed kostitsyn instead of him and it still is not working very well.
Does Koivu really have a responsibility when it comes to his line bad productions ? Koivu has twice the amounts of points his liners got.

Quote:

We just can't say that Koivu is not accountable of the production of his line as you said, he his the playmaker.
Playmaker make good passes, it's something he does ALL THE TIME.. but if his liners don't score.. does he get points ? No.

Quote:

Another thing i can't stand is the bad penality... Evryone knows he his hooking the opponent all the time, the refs knows it, why don't he stop, hooking is simply not allowed anymore, can't he adapt like evryone else did ?
This is true, some of his penalties are quite dumb, hopefully this will get fixed asap.

Basically, you gotta look at it from a certain way, Rick Nash ( Columbus) has 59 points, 6 more points then Koivu.. however, Nash is a Scorer, he will create his own opportunies if he doesn't have a good playmaker..

BUT.. a playmaker pass the puck around, he can't pull a < nash > and scores 36 goals by himself.

Habs10Habs 03-16-2008 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy Kautsitsin (Post 13115267)
Don't waste your time,the genius won't comeback to defend the insidious ''arguments'' he settled himself.

Kovalev the great FTW!He'll state about how Koivu is hugely overrated and should be traded to offer the C to Kovalev.:sarcasm:;)

I noticed that, I was hoping he would come back. I was quite curious to read his response.

THE HOFF 03-16-2008 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sined (Post 13114581)
I think his role is completely misunderstood by most if not all of the Koivu bashers.
In their minds "C" = "Best Player" which should be true for the most part but they also think that Best Player = "Put up tons of goals and points".

While the lack of "in their prime" wingers for him to play with is hurting him statistically, one cannot omit all the other intangibles he bring both on and off the ice.

Bashing Koivu cannot be justified solely on stats, because he brings elements that all successful teams need.

I think koivu is having a terrible season, does that make me a koivu basher!?

in MY MIND, ''C'' = RELIABLE PLAYER which he hasn't been this year.

in my mind, if your BEST PLAYER is a forward, he should record more points than Mark streit

''all the other intangibles he bring both on and off the ice. ''

like? penalties in the offensive end?

man there is a diffenrence in saying koivu generally played like crap this year and being a Koivu basher. Moreover, to suggest that koivu might be our ''best'' player this year gets me going bananas ... ARE YOU SERIOUS?

MontrealHabitant 03-16-2008 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kovalev the Great (Post 13115386)
I think koivu is having a terrible season, does that make me a koivu basher!?

in MY MIND, ''C'' = RELIABLE PLAYER which he hasn't been this year.

in my mind, if your BEST PLAYER is a forward, he should record more points than Mark streit

'

Mark streit has 52 points. (Koivu 53)

and this is hardly irrelevant, Streit has more points then Naslund, Modano, Elias..

And top players like Jagr, Nash, Hossa have 3-6 points more then Streit.

THE HOFF 03-16-2008 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontrealHabitant (Post 13114220)

Right there, we don't even have a < real > first line...

let's have a look at the second line and the multiple team mates that Koivu had on it.
Koivu: 53 PTS

Ryder 27 PTS
Higgins 45 PTS
S. Kostitsyn 23 PTS
Latendresse 25 PTS

Pretty pathetic,Koivu's 53 PTS this year while playing with this bunch of 3rd/4th liners is awesome to me, not to forget he's on the second line.


Koivu got greats hands ( as seen in shootouts, he's a beast) but you can't expect him to do more then 60 points per season when you stick him with complete rookies.. it's just plain dumb.

Okay... first of all, koivu was once labeled as our BEST player. as Our BEST player, he should have taken charge of the offense, which he did 3 or 4 (max) out of 12 years with the habs.

A REAL 1rst LINE? Last time I checked, Koivu-higgins-ryder was supposed to be our 1rst line this year... and didn't deliver... not only higgins, ryder... but also koivu.

Higgins, ryder, lats and s.kos are no more 3rd liners than koivu this year.

He's a PLAYMAKER ? well nice... his wingers should have an easy time getting plenty of chances... which is not the case. NO SHOTS ON GOAL vs senators... for his line.

You've seen his great hands in the shootouts? You mean that thing he does EVERY time? pretty nice! But ... I remember dagenais being a hero in shootout too ... :amazed:

He's not a baddddd player... but he is not 1rst line material either....

you're judging Koivu using double standards...

MontrealHabitant 03-16-2008 01:30 AM

Hum no, Ryder/Latendresse/Kots are 3rd liners, when a player can't manage 40 points on a second line, he's a third liner.

Koivu's best abilities is speed and agility-if you haven't done it already, you might want to check out Koivu's Shootouts on youtube.

THE HOFF 03-16-2008 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontrealHabitant (Post 13115476)
Mark streit has 52 points. (Koivu 53)

and this is hardly irrelevant, Streit has more points then Naslund, Modano, Elias..

And top players like Jagr, Nash, Hossa have 3-6 points more then Streit.

oh true... I mean ... because streit has 1 point less than koivu it changes everything... :handclap:

when you compare 2 players on a SAME team... its relevant.

Is jagr, modano, hossa the best players on their team anyways...? :shakehead

yeah, try and justify your point with pointless exemples.

Stephen Locke* 03-16-2008 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kovalev the Great (Post 13115386)
I think koivu is having a terrible season, does that make me a koivu basher!?

in MY MIND, ''C'' = RELIABLE PLAYER which he hasn't been this year.

in my mind, if your BEST PLAYER is a forward, he should record more points than Mark streit

''all the other intangibles he bring both on and off the ice. ''

like? penalties in the offensive end?

man there is a diffenrence in saying koivu generally played like crap this year and being a Koivu basher. Moreover, to suggest that koivu might be our ''best'' player this year gets me going bananas ... ARE YOU SERIOUS?


Can we dispense with the straw man arguments?Nobody has mentioned that Koivu is our best player this year? :loony:Learn to read properly,man.

And the comparaison you've settled between Streit and Koivu respective productions this year is way off and is completely different.Apples and oranges.They have a similar offensive production,but that's it.The comparaisons stop here.


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