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-   -   Does Koivu needs help on the first line? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=49679)

HABitude 02-04-2004 10:41 PM

Does Koivu needs help on the first line?
 
Does Koivu needs help on the first line? I mean, Koivu is playing well, Ryder is doing okay, Bulis isn't that bad on first line but every hockey analysts (and most posters here ;) ) start saying Koivu's line would do really better with a true first line winger instead of Bulis. And Bulis would fit better on a checking line (would make a 3rd line better IMO). Do you see Habs slowing down lately and winning against weak teams by a small margin? Do you fear the last stretch of the season and the play-offs without being 100% sure of having a strong first line?

In a perfect world we would acquire that right winger without giving too much.
Just for curiosity, what established winger would fit with Saku?
A big one, a fast one, a character one ? :dunno:

Hossa+Hainsey for Tkachuck+2nd round ? :dunno:

CoupeStanley 02-04-2004 10:51 PM

Nah not Tkachuk !

IMHO! We need to look into the 25-28 years old range.

Someone like O'neil, Smyth or Iginla won't come cheap but it is more our need.

HABitude 02-04-2004 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoupeStanley
Nah not Tkachuk !

IMHO! We need to look into the 25-28 years old range.

Someone like O'neil, Smyth or Iginla won't come cheap but it is more our need.

You said it: it won't come cheap!
A 25-28 years old range is nice but we already Kats waiting to play here in a few years, 2 years I think Kats will flash here. An old guy like Tkachuk could help for a short time and being relatively cheap, I mean without sacrifying the future.

caper13 02-04-2004 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HABitude
Does Koivu needs help on the first line? I mean, Koivu is playing well, Ryder is doing okay, Bulis isn't that bad on first line but every hockey analysts (and most posters here ;) ) start saying Koivu's line would do really better with a true first line winger instead of Bulis. And Bulis would fit better on a checking line (would make a 3rd line better IMO). Do you see Habs slowing down lately and winning against weak teams by a small margin? Do you fear the last stretch of the season and the play-offs without being 100% sure of having a strong first line?

In a perfect world we would acquire that right winger without giving too much.
Just for curiosity, what established winger would fit with Saku?
A big one, a fast one, a character one ? :dunno:

Hossa+Hainsey for Tkachuck+2nd round ? :dunno:

yes he needs zednik and roberio needs bulis and hossa or ward. :yo:

Habs4Life 02-04-2004 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HABitude
Does Koivu needs help on the first line? I mean, Koivu is playing well, Ryder is doing okay, Bulis isn't that bad on first line but every hockey analysts (and most posters here ;) ) start saying Koivu's line would do really better with a true first line winger instead of Bulis. And Bulis would fit better on a checking line (would make a 3rd line better IMO). Do you see Habs slowing down lately and winning against weak teams by a small margin? Do you fear the last stretch of the season and the play-offs without being 100% sure of having a strong first line?

In a perfect world we would acquire that right winger without giving too much.
Just for curiosity, what established winger would fit with Saku?
A big one, a fast one, a character one ? :dunno:

Hossa+Hainsey for Tkachuck+2nd round ? :dunno:

Ryder is doing ok???? The guy hits and plays his heart out everynight and he's ok?
He's doing awesome!!!!!!!!

tinyzombies 02-04-2004 11:10 PM

Why not try this?

Ryder-Koivu-Dagenais
Bulis-Ribeiro-Zednik

Ryder is better on the left side and Zednik is better on the right side. Bulis and Zednik would be a bigger help to Ribs on the boards. I don't see all this big chemistry between Ribs and Dags anyway. All Dags does is shoot and Koivu will set him up.

Munchausen 02-04-2004 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HABitude
In a perfect world we would acquire that right winger without giving too much.

Yeah, but LW though.

Zednik - Koivu - Ryder
? - Ribeiro - Dagenais
Bulis - Begin - Ward

Smyth, Cole, Morrow, Leclerc... Those are the type of guys I see missing in that equation. None of them will come cheap.

oli500 02-04-2004 11:54 PM

koivu and ryder are an awsome duo, but Yes they need another winger. I just dont see what bulis brings to this line either than speed. We need someone that can finish plays. I would love o'neil in montreal. I think he could complete the koivu -Ryder duo pretty good. If we dont get anybody I wouldent mind calling up hossa and giving him another shot. He has more of a scorer skill than what bulis those. Right now I think would be the apropriate time to call him up. Bulis can go back on the 3rd line with ward and bégin wich would give us 3 balance lines. I Personally think we dont need anyone right now and I also think that if we call hossa up he wont srewit up this time espicially knowing hes playing with koivu and ryder. We should not give up on hossa yet. We might be disapointed 3 years down the road.

My lines

Hossa -koivu-Ryder
Dagenais -Ribeiro- Zednik
Bulis-Bégin-Ward
Langdon-Juneau-Kilger/sundstrom.

jcpenny 02-05-2004 12:01 AM

DAGENAIS OUT!

Hossa IN!!

HABitude 02-05-2004 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habs4Life
Ryder is doing ok???? The guy hits and plays his heart out everynight and he's ok?
He's doing awesome!!!!!!!!

Yeah he's awesome, I'm just the kind of person who doesn't flame to quickly. I hope Ryder will be consistent, not just one first great year.

tinyzombies 02-05-2004 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oli500
koivu and ryder are an awsome duo, but Yes they need another winger. I just dont see what bulis brings to this line either than speed. We need someone that can finish plays. I would love o'neil in montreal. I think he could complete the koivu -Ryder duo pretty good. If we dont get anybody I wouldent mind calling up hossa and giving him another shot. He has more of a scorer skill than what bulis those. Right now I think would be the apropriate time to call him up. Bulis can go back on the 3rd line with ward and bégin wich would give us 3 balance lines. I Personally think we dont need anyone right now and I also think that if we call hossa up he wont srewit up this time espicially knowing hes playing with koivu and ryder. We should not give up on hossa yet. We might be disapointed 3 years down the road.

My lines

Hossa -koivu-Ryder
Dagenais -Ribeiro- Zednik
Bulis-Bégin-Ward
Langdon-Juneau-Kilger/sundstrom.

This is not a bad idea either since Hossa and Ryder have good chemistry together last year in the AHL. They scored some big goals together last year. But I don't want Hossa to come up here and float around, muck a bit on the boards and take stupid longshots on goal. He has to hustle! Maybe Ryder and Koivu would be good for him. I don't think they've played together before? In any case, Julien would know because he knows what Ryder-Hossa can do together.

Dagenais is getting on my nerves, but Julien has more patience than most of us so I think he still has some time to prove himself.

HABitude 02-05-2004 12:20 AM

About Hossa, it's strange that he's not being called up yet and suddently would be used in the first line. :dunno:
.. maybe the second line would be more appropriate to start with, he was doing well in pre-season games with Ribs a few years ago.
And for Dagenais, if he's not good enough on 2nd line, he doesn't deserve to play with the big team, back to Hamilton in his case.

Habsolution 02-05-2004 12:39 AM

Ideally we'd trade for a versatile winger who can play both LW and RW.

O'neill would be nice.

Zednik-Koivu-Ryder (Zed is the man to complete the first line, they were totaly on fire before Zed's wife gave birth...)

Bulis-Ribeiro-O'Neill

The Power Forward 02-05-2004 12:47 AM

I think it shouldn't be a question because the answer is YES Koivu does need help.Not only Koivu does but also Ribs on the 2nd line.I have said it a couple of times and i will say it again :

Koivu and Ribs need a big forward(not necessaily a star) to clear the way for them.I think that we all agree that Zednik and Ryder are ok for now but the real problem in on the left wing.Bulis is 3rd line material and Dags is 4th line/AHL material unless he improve his play drasticlly.Both are only a temporary solution for now and i would bet 100 $ that both Julien and Gainey think that too.Also , forget Hossa , he is not going to be the solution either on a short term period , he is not physical enough to wage war in front of the net and apparently he is having a bad season in the AHL.

The real solution if we want to improve these spots this year will be on the trade market.What we could get and what we are willing to pay is another story but i am confident in Gainey in that departement.Someone mentionned Erik Cole and i definitively think that it's a player that could help .There is also Ryan Smyth who is rumored to be availaible that could be an option (i know that i said yesterday that he shouldn't be on our priority list but it don't mean that he wouldn't be a valuable asset to our team , he certainly is a big improvement over Bulis or Dags).There was also talks about Jason Arnott earlier this year and he would be a very good canditate too.

To conclude : I'm pretty sure that Gainey already realised that and we should see something happen before the trade deadline.Now what we are going to get , i have no idea but like i said previously , i trust Gainey to get us a player that will benefit our team. :handclap:

tinyzombies 02-05-2004 02:35 AM

Here's the scoop on O'Neill from the Canes board:

actually, the reason he was moved to wing was to see if he would be more effective there-he hadnt produced much to that point. he had been a top center in junior and it was assumed that his playmaking skills would make the jump with him-they never did. he was first line center with shanny and nelsom emerson his rookie year and did well-but his best plays were always his goals. after that he became the 3 center for a couple years, never really clicking with everyone. he isnt that great a playmaker-he tends to look to the goal first, never had a delicate touch on his passes, and wasnt the most deligent back checker. also his skating has always been fast north-south....never east west. he was a righty version of geoff sanderson that way. its not that he cant pass at all or doesnt have vision-he just always seemed to want to drive to the net and shoot instead of carrying the puck and creating. these are the traits of a scoring winger-not a center. his one true center like quality is his way above average faceoff skill. over the last few years, he often took draws for francis, and he takes almost all of staals-especially in the defensive end. people dont realize thats why the canes are the top face off team. its because of oneill and vasicek almost as much as francis and brindy. he can be a checker-but the canes never use him that way because they need him in his scoring role.
when they reaquired francis-they had a few centers and not enough wings, and no top winger for francis so they tried oneill cuz he was too good to not be a top 6 forward...but wasnt a good enough center to play over francis/primeau then brindamour. at the same time jeff started using the one-piece easton synergies, and adopted a style of shooting based more on quick hard releases instead of accurately placed shots. both he and mark parrish of the isles(also using a onepiece) both exploded that year. jeffs change in shooting attitude, combined with the moving goalies he saw from the francis passes-mixed with the onepiece sticks made him a goal scorer. when goalies like brodeur complained about the sticks, saying it made guys who were 15-20 goal scorers 30-40 goal scorers...i thought of oneill. in time his confidence grew to the point where he mixed his quick shots with his natural instict for the pretty top shelf roofer-and goalies dont know for sure what he is going to do. when he is struggling like this season-he eventually gets back to not thinking about it-and just shooting quick. his recent outburst is the proof-i think all of the shots on his last 5 goals were quick releases, i think when he is at his best he doesnt touch the puck much-he shoots it quick. thats why he is at his best with a playmaking center. dont know if i got what you wanted, but im feeling a bit longwinded so im stopping now.

All-Star 02-05-2004 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raketheleaves
Why not try this?

Ryder-Koivu-Dagenais
Bulis-Ribeiro-Zednik

Ryder is better on the left side and Zednik is better on the right side. Bulis and Zednik would be a bigger help to Ribs on the boards. I don't see all this big chemistry between Ribs and Dags anyway. All Dags does is shoot and Koivu will set him up.

There is no way Dagenais would be able to keep up with Koivu's line. I'd rather see Kilger, Ward, or even Sundstrom on that line before Dagenais. It's too bad they didn't keep Balej a bit longer. I would have liked to have seen a Ryder-Koivu-Balej line for a game or two. Koivu's style works much better with fast energetic players.

GhostOfTheForum 02-05-2004 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All-Star
There is no way Dagenais would be able to keep up with Koivu's line. I'd rather see Kilger, Ward, or even Sundstrom on that line before Dagenais. It's too bad they didn't keep Balej a bit longer. I would have liked to have seen a Ryder-Koivu-Balej line for a game or two. Koivu's style works much better with fast energetic players.

where would you put Dagenais?

All-Star 02-05-2004 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhostOfTheForum
where would you put Dagenais?

Until someone better comes along, I'd keep him on the second with Ribs. As soon as we have someone better, I'd ship him back to Hamilton on the first bus out of town. Dagenais would be useless on the 3rd and 4th lines.

Darz 02-05-2004 11:14 AM

Koivu might not have the greatest linemates for a so called 1st line, but I don't think you'll see Gainey go out and trade away our prospects to get one either. The price tag for the players wh's names get thrown around would be steep. Iginla's, O'Neill's etc would cost us huge. Look at what it took Philly to acquire Comrie and it's easy to think to acquire the type of player we are looking for we would have to give up something along the lines of Komisarek and a 1st, or Hainey and Perezhogin (don't know if even that would be enough) and I really don't beleive you will see Gainey making such a trade.
Our top line might not be the best in the league, but it has gotten us this far, and like Gainey, I expect them to get us into the playoffs, as is.

Habruti! 02-06-2004 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darz
Koivu might not have the greatest linemates for a so called 1st line, but I don't think you'll see Gainey go out and trade away our prospects to get one either. The price tag for the players wh's names get thrown around would be steep. Iginla's, O'Neill's etc would cost us huge. Look at what it took Philly to acquire Comrie and it's easy to think to acquire the type of player we are looking for we would have to give up something along the lines of Komisarek and a 1st, or Hainey and Perezhogin (don't know if even that would be enough) and I really don't beleive you will see Gainey making such a trade.
Our top line might not be the best in the league, but it has gotten us this far, and like Gainey, I expect them to get us into the playoffs, as is.

I would not mind going for a cheaper guy ... someone like Taylor Pyatt maybe..?

Habs4Life 02-06-2004 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HABitude
Yeah he's awesome, I'm just the kind of person who doesn't flame to quickly. I hope Ryder will be consistent, not just one first great year.

Are we talking about now or later?

hockey_nut 02-06-2004 12:26 AM

reply to the topic title... YES

move bulis to the 3rd line... leave the 2nd line alone... and somehow get Koivu and Ryder a better LWer

HABitude 02-06-2004 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habs4Life
Are we talking about now or later?

Talking about Ryder's great year so far. I hope he's not another “feu de paille”, now and for the future. The way I see him, I see a guy who works hard everygame, so his success the result of his hard work instead of a natural talent. So I don't fear for the future, I feel that Ryder is made of the right stuff, he's a good guy!
:yo:

HABitude 02-06-2004 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockey_nut
reply to the topic title... YES

move bulis to the 3rd line... leave the 2nd line alone... and somehow get Koivu and Ryder a better LWer

So my topic was pertinent. Nice change. :p
I don't see Gainey making a big trade, some of the names mentionned are very interresting (Smyth, O'Neill, Doan, Cole, etc), Gainey must stick to the rebuilding plan because these players won't come cheap. A cheaper solution can be possible without sacrifying the future (untouchable top prospects). I love Bulis speed but he's not top six material. Maybe that LW is in the organisation. Perezhogin or Hossa? Are they ready? Tzats ize dze questzion.

markov` 02-06-2004 01:00 AM

Koivu definitly needs help.


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