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-   -   Vancouver - Washington Proposal (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=50987)

MoS* 02-10-2004 02:13 AM

Vancouver - Washington Proposal
 
Washington Receives: RJ Umberger and Jason King
Vancouver Receives: Robert Lang and 4th Rounder

Vancouver gets a scoring 2nd liner who can benefit the sedins and lose the headcase that is umberger.

SedinFan* 02-10-2004 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoS
Washington Receives: RJ Umberger and Jason King
Vancouver Receives: Robert Lang and 4th Rounder

Vancouver gets a scoring 2nd liner who can benefit the sedins and lose the headcase that is umberger.

Not for 5 million per year for the next few years. I think not. tah tah...this'll get shelled.

MoS* 02-10-2004 02:19 AM

lang is a natural center who can score (maybe he can at rw too..). maybe his contract is on the steep side but if he can anchor our second line then with 2 scoring lines in the playoffs we should make it past the second round and that along would rake in more revenue than lang's salary every year.

Naslund - Morrison - Bertuzzi
Sedin - Sedin - Lang
May - Chubarov - Linden
Ruutu - Cooke - Arvedsson
Keane/Lindgren

EroCaps 02-10-2004 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoS
Washington Receives: RJ Umberger and Jason King
Vancouver Receives: Robert Lang and 4th Rounder

Vancouver gets a scoring 2nd liner who can benefit the sedins and lose the headcase that is umberger.

If you swap Umberger for Allen, I'd take it.

I think the last thing Washington fans want is another headcase. ;)

Peter Griffin 02-10-2004 02:39 AM

I'd much rather have Peter Bondra...

EroCaps 02-10-2004 02:51 AM

Bondra for Allen and a pick.

Peter Griffin 02-10-2004 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EroCaps
Bondra for Allen and a pick.

No thanks.

I highly doubt Allen is traded. The supposed rumour from Ottawa was Schastlivy and a 2nd round pick, I would think the most the Canucks would offer is Jason King or R.J. Umberger and a 2nd round pick, maybe 1st round pick.

regehr 02-10-2004 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoS
Washington Receives: RJ Umberger and Jason King
Vancouver Receives: Robert Lang and 4th Rounder

Vancouver gets a scoring 2nd liner who can benefit the sedins and lose the headcase that is umberger.

Caps need defense, so I suspect they would look for that first.

txpd 02-10-2004 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
No thanks.

I highly doubt Allen is traded. The supposed rumour from Ottawa was Schastlivy and a 2nd round pick, I would think the most the Canucks would offer is Jason King or R.J. Umberger and a 2nd round pick, maybe 1st round pick.

that's what you get for listening to stupid rumors. it was not schastlivy, who could only get todd simpson in return, nor shane hnidy. if there was anything to that trade it was for vermette and a pick.

Umberger is an unsigned prospect that won't be signed and Jason King has forgotten how to score. why would the caps do that? particularly considering the caps desperate need for defensemen....makes no sense....no sale.

Dropkick Alex 02-10-2004 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EroCaps
Bondra for Allen and a pick.

Bondra is to old...hes 35 or 36 i think...lang is 30 i believe...so i think the vancouver fans would want lang more...and they wouldnt be giving up alot besides King.

PhillyNucksFan 02-10-2004 08:01 AM

actually, as good as Lang has been so far, I dont want him in Canucks uniform, he is NOT what we need!!! Although having 2 C on a line could take care of the faceoff if one of them gets yanked, still, we need a SNIPER, not a scoring C.

I believe Sedins are ready for consistent 2nd line time! which they have NOT been getting. (both avg roughly 13min/game)

King/Umb/3rd (maybe 2nd) would work for me.. remember, everything you have here is BONUS, considering it is highly likely that Bondra returns to caps after this rental season!

OR

King/Umb/2nd (Maybe 1st) IF the trade terms are negotiated in a way that Bondra would resign for 1 more year (2nd round) or 2+ year (1st round), if not, King/Umb/3rd.
IF resigned, I have no prob giving up 2nd or 1st in the next year draft.

Of course, even if Umb doesnt sign with caps, i believe they are going to get a compensatory pick of 2nd round? (or 3rd?)
, so thats King/2nd/3rd (or 2nd/1st) for your 2-month absense of Bondra!

I doubt Bondra would fetch a lot from other teams, knowing that he would probably not resign... then again, if Clarke is in the running... well, he will outbid ALL other teams.. lol :joker:

txpd 02-10-2004 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bouwmeester4
Bondra is to old...hes 35 or 36 i think...lang is 30 i believe...so i think the vancouver fans would want lang more...and they wouldnt be giving up alot besides King.

Bondra is too old for what? He turned 36 yesterday....oh let me just quote the newspaper today....http://washingtontimes.com/sports/20...0448-5130r.htm
despite turning 36 last Saturday, he still is one of the NHL's fastest skaters and still delivers one of the hardest shots in the league.
and
His 470 career goals put Bondra behind only Brett Hull, Jaromir Jagr and Brendan Shanahan during that stretch. Bondra holds Caps records for points, goals, power-play goals, game-winning goals, short-handed goals and hat tricks.
or the washington post from a couple days ago....http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Feb5.html

"Peter is a player who can play a long time, easily until he's 40," General Manager George McPhee said. "And then its up to him mentally if he wants to play beyond that, but he is genetically gifted, he has NHL legs, he trains as hard as anybody and he brings speed to the rink every night. In addition to that you can count on him for 30-35 goals, he kills penalties, he can play him anywhere you want on the power play. He's been a hell of a player for a long time."

You take players for the lenth of a contract. Bondra had 4 more seasons of 30 goals plus left in him. thats a couple of two year contracts.
Lang by the way is 33. Which would you rather have? a 36 year old that can score 30 goals which is among the league's top 20 or a prospect/young player that will never see one 30 goal season.

As of today there are 6 other players in the nhl with as many as 19 goals that have 30 goals in each of the previous 2 seasons. Bondra and 6 other guys. Thats it.

what is he too old for?

Ironchef Chris Wok* 02-10-2004 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txpd
You take players for the lenth of a contract. Bondra had 4 more seasons of 30 goals plus left in him. thats a couple of two year contracts.
Lang by the way is 33. Which would you rather have? a 36 year old that can score 30 goals which is among the league's top 20 or a prospect/young player that will never see one 30 goal season.

As of today there are 6 other players in the nhl with as many as 19 goals that have 30 goals in each of the previous 2 seasons. Bondra and 6 other guys. Thats it.

what is he too old for?

Peter Bondra is a great player who keeps himself in great shape. But you think he can score 30 goals at the age 40? I mean that's a little optimistic.

EroCaps 02-10-2004 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironchef Chris Wok
Peter Bondra is a great player who keeps himself in great shape. But you think he can score 30 goals at the age 40? I mean that's a little optimistic.

No, but 20-25? Absolutely.

NFITO 02-10-2004 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txpd
what is he too old for?

he's too old to be a RFA - and comes with a $4.5mill contract (team/player options)...

there is no way the Canucks send Allen for a rental player. In a recent interview Burke even indicated that who they try and get needs to fit in long term, or if its a rental, they still need to think long term in who they give up... Nonis in an earlier interview talked about the team's willingness to overpay in futures in order to keep the key/core players around instead of using them as trade assets.

all this tells me that the team has no plans in dealing Allen, who's becoming a bigger part of this team every game... he's the #2 dman on the PK now, and is seeing more icetime as the season rolls on.

as for Lang - I doubt he's even on Burke's radar right now... his contract is pricy, and he's not a rental - meaning that he'll take up $5mill a year on the roster for 3 more seasons, while the canucks have to get new contracts for Morrison, Ohlund and Cloutier - and the Sedins are playing like they'll get a raise next season as well (they also have a few more RFAs after this year).... adding a long term $5 mill player doesn't make sense...

personally I wouldn't want to get Lang at all... if we add a top line center I hope we add a soon to be UFA like Zhamnov.

his value is probably going to be overrated too... hes' had a great season - about time!! but he's yet to play any significant number of games without Jagr this year too.... his contract though IMO will/should kill the value on him.

with Bondra - I'd rather add him on this team anyday... he's more of what we need and IMO a perfect fit for us... still he's a rental, and key guys like Allen can't be involved (unless we're getting Witt back as well ;) ).

not sure there is a fit if Caps fans are expecting players like Allen coming back... good thing though that it isn't the fans making the calls, and like in every deal involving a high salary player, or a soon to be UFA, the return is usually a lot less than fans expect.

txpd 02-10-2004 09:42 AM

talking about lang you said....his value is probably going to be overrated too... hes' had a great season - about time!! but he's yet to play any significant number of games without Jagr this year too.... his contract though IMO will/should kill the value on him.

are you somehow under the false impression that lang was playing with jagr all season? Lang started the year with a 16 game pts streak. Lang was not playing with Jagr on a line or a power play unit during that time. Lang has 2 4 pt games this year. One of which was with Jagr out with an injury.

in the 6 games since Jagr was traded Lang has 7 pts. most of those games with Gonchar injuried and missing from the pp

I am not sure what else you need to see.

NFITO 02-10-2004 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txpd
talking about lang you said....his value is probably going to be overrated too... hes' had a great season - about time!! but he's yet to play any significant number of games without Jagr this year too.... his contract though IMO will/should kill the value on him.

are you somehow under the false impression that lang was playing with jagr all season? Lang started the year with a 16 game pts streak. Lang was not playing with Jagr on a line or a power play unit during that time. Lang has 2 4 pt games this year. One of which was with Jagr out with an injury.

in the 6 games since Jagr was traded Lang has 7 pts. most of those games with Gonchar injuried and missing from the pp

I am not sure what else you need to see.

It's what other GMs, teams are going to be rightfully looking at if the caps are demanding return based on his production more so than his contract.

the argument from the Caps side is that he's a premier center because he's been productive all season, and therefore his $5mill/yr 3 yr contract is justified... he should get paid like a premier center... from the opposite side, I'd argue that he's only done it one year where he's been scoring consistently like this, and that with Jagr on the same team, getting tons of icetime and being one of the top scoring options on the team...

basically IMO he's not worth a $15 mill investment, no matter how's he's scoring *this* year.... I don't see why teams would give equal value at all for that, especially with the CBA coming up.

you mentioned in the other thread that even with a $35mill cap, his salary is justified - in the wings case especially if they see players like Yzerman and Hull leave... I don't agree with this... for a 3 yr commitment for $5mill a year, for a player of his age, I expect more consistent production over years... $5mill is hard to fit on any payroll, and with a $35 mill cap, it's even tougher...

the Canucks, by this argument, would have zero interest, as our payroll is already in the $41 mill range, and that's without 3 main players, and a handful of others signed after this year.... we have minimal contracts going out (that we won't be re-signing).

even teams like the Wings will have to think twice about this... with a payroll over $60mill, even with the retirements they will still be hardpressed to ice a top team with a $35mill budget, and that's where a player like Lang - who's not Mario here, or Sakic, or Naslund, etc - is a bigger risk.

If Lang was consistently among the top 5 in scoring year after year, his contract would be less risky... but as it is, with the CBA coming up, 3 yr contracts for players like him come with risk, and there aren't many teams that will take on that kind of risk...

a handful of months ago the Caps couldn't give him away, now after one season (not even) he's worth value based on his production this year, without weighing heavier on his contract versus his performance in the NHL to date?

Like I said earlier, I wouldn't want him on our team - or more accurately I wouldn't want his contract on our payroll for the next 3 seasons!

ehc73 02-10-2004 12:37 PM

Well, as always, the NHL trades are often like "what have you done for me lately". Same thing with contracts. Martin Lapointe had a great year in Detroit, then he gets $5 million per and promptly flops in Boston. Scott Lachance does well with the Canucks racking up points, gets $2 M per and promptly flops in Columbus. Andy Delmore lights it up on the PP in Nashville, gets more money in Buffalo and gets sent down to the AHL. So right now Lang's trade value would be high due to his contention for the Art Ross Trophy. He hasn't shown consistency, which means the saner GMs in the league won't be offering up big for him. His contract is lengthy and, while not completely hideous considering past contracts, is not fiscally responsible considering the upcoming CBA. Unless Washington is going to eat at least half of that salary, Burke likely won't be interested. Besides, Zhamnov would be cheaper and, while likely not as talented, doesn't carry such a heavy financial obligation nor would he command as much as Lang on the market.
Bondra would be a rental for the Canucks. Allen will not be traded for a rental. Marginal prospects and a pick or two will be sent, that's what rental prices are. Bondra is a UFA if I'm not mistaken so he may sign elsewhere in the offseason. Trading a potential top-4 d-man for a playoff rental is not smart. Trading him with a pick on top of that is dumber. I see him as a better fit for the Canucks anyways, a higher priority than another centre IMO.

ZombieMatt 02-10-2004 01:32 PM

I actually like the original trade proposal...even for Lang's salary, but that's just me.

Frenzy1 02-10-2004 02:37 PM

My biggest problem lately w/ this board is the CBA Cap talk. All of a sudden a player making top flight player make 5 mill is a lot of money. This isn't close to being correct.

Elite players will still get 6-8 mill w/ a cap in place. Will it be the end of 11 mill contracts? IMO, Yes. But top players won't be getting 2-3 mill per year contracts as a result of a cap.

Further, will there be grandfather clause that lets part of/all of prior contacts to not count against the cap. (sorry the wording on this is really bad, but I hope you get my point).

I guess the question is does the addition of Lang put Vancouver into a strong position come the playoffs and is he worth whatever it takes to get him? That is a question for GMs.

Ol' Dirty Chinaman* 02-10-2004 02:51 PM

Lang is a one-hit wonder. He's going to dissapear next year.

Mark my words.

The Canucks don't need Lang. Let's go after O'Neill.

monster_bertuzzi 02-10-2004 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Dirty Chinaman
Lang is a one-hit wonder. He's going to dissapear next year.

Mark my words.

The Canucks don't need Lang. Let's go after O'Neill.

He had 82 pts in 2000/2001

...And 68 pts last year. Hardly a one hit wonder.

me2 02-10-2004 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
He had 82 pts in 2000/2001

...And 68 pts last year. Hardly a one hit wonder.

If Lang was 3 years younger it might be tempting but that contract and his age are just too much of a risk. By the end of it you could have a beaten up $5m 3rd or 4th line centre. If the Caps want something decent when they trade Lang they may have to eat salary at the end of the contract.

txpd 02-10-2004 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Dirty Chinaman
Lang is a one-hit wonder. He's going to dissapear next year.

Mark my words.

The Canucks don't need Lang. Let's go after O'Neill.

what do you base that on?

zetterberg40 02-10-2004 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EroCaps
If you swap Umberger for Allen, I'd take it.

I think the last thing Washington fans want is another headcase. ;)

The kid isnt a headcase, he just doesnt want to play for a canadian team. He stayed in my hometown for a few months and i saw him twice, he stayed with a local family and was a very nice guy. I talked to the kid he stays with and umberger always helped them out with parties n stuff. What am i getting at? The kid he stayed with had a canadian friend who's lived here for about 3 years or so, and everytime umberger saw the kid he would make fun of him, joking around, but he's told the family he stayed with, he perfers to play for a american team, not canadian. I dont think the kid would be too much of a headcase in washington. He'll get a lot of playing time thats for sure.


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