Norris Trophy voting: 78-present
In an effort to get a little perspective on some modern defensemen, I've crunched some numbers from the NHL Awards and All-Star voting thread and come up with an alphabetical list of all defensemen from 78 to present who finished "high" in the Norris trophy voting. I wanted to construct something resembling a top-10 list by season based on Norris voting, but changes in voting format (beginning in 1995) and other concerns led me to scrap that goal and come up with a new standard. Here it is:
The list contains all defensemen from 78 to present who achieved at least one first place vote or two top-3 votes in any given year. The reasoning for this standard follows:
- I wanted something approximating a measure of top-10 finishes by year, and wasn't terribly interested in a top-20. With the exception of the 80-81 outlier (in which defensemen down to 19th place met the standard) and 82-83 (in which only the top-5 is available), the standard I use yields results down as low as 13th in a few seasons and as shallow as 6th in others, but yields something close to a top-10 for most seasons.
- I wanted to weed out homer votes by local sportswriters. Including defensemen who received only a single 3rd place vote in the rankings, for example, would likely skew the results badly in favor of players from large markets.
- the ordering of defensemen who each received only one vote could cause great distortions for what I think are obvious reasons. I don't want to assign number values to players' relative performance based on the opinion of just one sportswriter in one year.
- the introduction of 4th and 5th place Norris voting in 95-96 made it impossible to reconcile the periods before and after that time by comparing raw points. Inclusion of 4th and 5th place voting in the standard is also impossible because those votes did not exist before 95-96.
One more note: I have not included breakdowns for modern defensemen drafted in the first two rounds of ATD #9. These players have rather static values, and aren't of huge interest to me, though I'd welcome an addition to these stats if someone feels like breaking down all of the top-10 finishes by guys like Chelios, MacInnis, Leetch, Lidstrom, et al. Ok, here's the data, sorted alphabetically by player name and chronologically by year:
- Brad McCrimmon doesn't make a lot of appearances among the Norris leaders, which also does not surprise me.
- Adam Foote makes zero appearances on this list. I didn't forget him; he simply never met the standard. Considering how much love defensive defensemen actually get in the Norris voting, one has to wonder why the sportswriters never considered Foote worthy of more than a single top-3 vote (he did get a single 3rd place vote in 98-99 and again in 02-03).
- the list is a good reminder of why Phil Housley and Larry Murphy get drafted relatively high.
- the fact that, in addition to his Norris and all-star years, Rod Langway also has two 5th place Norris finishes (essentially 3rd-team all-star years) and two other years on the edge of the top-10 may do something to resuscitate his draft stock.
- the numbers remind us that Ken Morrow was every bit as un-special as I recall him being and that Chris Pronger is, actually, you know...really good.
- I am reminded of just how short Scott Niedermayer's peak really was and of the strange gap between his first really good season and his Norris Trophy six years later.
*added Bourque, Coffey, Stevens, MacInnis, Chelios, Leetch, Lidstrom - so now it's basically complete*
Great work Sturm. Should be added somehow in the History of hockey section, but is perfectly relevant here for a quick reference.
And yet another metric thats shows Mark Howe was an outstanding player.
where is scott stevens
Great work, Sturm. I was planning on doing the same type of analysis with the Norris votes, you beat me to it.
I think you did the right thing by limiting this to years where players received at least one first place vote or two top-3 votes. It's obvious that in many years, all of the players outside of the top 5-10 simply received one or two votes (out of 50-100 potential voters). There's no point in pretending that a player with a single 4th place vote is definitely superior to a player that received a single 5th place vote (or didn't receive any votes at all).
A few quick observations. Randy Carlyle's poor voting record supports my long-held opinion that he's the worst Norris winner ever. Zubov's voting record is pretty interesting- it supports the general consensus that he's been a very good defenseman for a long time, but he's only really had a few elite seasons. Finally, I think that Phaneuf has sky-high potential but I'm very surprised by his three straight top-eight finishes. Maybe I should watch more Flames games.
There's one more Norris metric I'd like to work on: Norris shares. It's based on the Vezina shares Dr. No has on his website. Basically, you compare voting points a player has, to the total available votes. This way, Bobby Orr's unanimous 1970 Norris is worth more than, say, Doug Wilson getting ~58% of available points.
Really surprised that three guys drafted - Reijo Ruotsalainen, Brad Maxwell and Behn Wilson - don't make it in this metric. Especially Maxwell, actually.
I also completely forgot about Doug Wilson first, so I really wondered which numbers Sturm did worked with that actually GAVE Behn Watson a Norris...
I think possible points is the best metric available, though it will not yield results that add up to a clean 100% across all players - only a comparison of 1st place votes yields that kind of clean data. Given that a shares metric will mostly only be relevant for analyzing the top performers in any given season, perhaps 1st place votes is the way to go. I dunno.
I'm a little surprised by Phaneuf's Norris voting record, as well, though maybe I shouldn't be. I must admit to a some surprise over the consistency shown in Rob Blake's Norris voting record, as well. I'm a guy who has criticized Blake in the past for his brain farts and inconsistency, and yet, viewed from this angle, Blake actually appears to have been quite a consistent performer over his peak years, and perhaps unfairly maligned. Ditto Pronger, whose ups and downs do play out in the voting, but who we're reminded has had a lot more up than down, especially when injuries are taken into account.
Much criticism on Langway comes from Howe being better.
Each has the same amount of occurrences, the 5th, 9th and 11th cancel each other out. Leaving:
Langway: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 5th
Howe: 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 6th
Shouldn't need to say who that favours.
I think when rating Langway, many people forget he was getting Norris consideration when he played in Montreal.
Note: I am adding a 7th place finish for Randy Carlyle in 84-85. I missed that he got three 3rd place votes in that season because the two players rated directly ahead of him each received a single 2nd place vote and thus didn't meet the standard of the metric.
I consider three 3rd place votes considerably more evidence of a good season than a single 2nd place vote, which, given the performances of the top defensemen that season, was almost surely the result of a single homer sportswriter's poor judgment. So I am adding a 7th place finish in Carlyle's column, consistent with the metric.
The following players have added Norris consideration over the last 3 years, as per sturm's original criteria. Only drafted players have been added.
Here's all the top 10s up to 2009
Red Kelly - 1st(1954), 2nd(1955), 3rd(1956), 2nd(1957)
Doug Harvey - 2nd(1954), 1st(1955), 1st(1956), 1st(1957), 1st(1958), 4th(1959), 1st(1960), 1st(1961), 1st(1962)
Bill Gadsby - 3rd(1954), 2nd(1956), 4th(1957), 2nd(1958), 2nd(1959), 5th(1963), 3rd(1965)
Fern Flaman - 3rd(1955), 5th(1956), 3rd(1957), 3rd(1958), 5th(1959)
Bob Goldham - 4th(1955)
Hugh Bolton - 5th(1955)
Tom Johnson - 4th(1956), 1st(1959), 5th(1960)
Doug Mohns - 5th(1957)
Ron Stewart - 4th(1958)
Marcel Pronovost - 5th(1958), 3rd(1959), 3rd(1960), 2nd(1961), 5th(1965)
Allan Stanley - 2nd(1960), 3rd(1961)
Pierre Pilote - 4th(1960), 4th(1961), 2nd(1962), 1st(1963), 1st(1964), 1st(1965), 2nd(1966), 2nd(1967)
Leo Boivin - 5th(1961), 10th(1967)
Jean-Guy Talbot - 3rd(1962)
Carl Brewer - 4th(1962), 2nd(1963), 3rd(1970)
Tim Horton - 3rd(1963), 2nd(1964), 4th(1965), 4th(1967), 3rd(1968), 2nd(1969)
Elmer Vasko - 4th(1963), 3rd(1964)
Jacques Laperriere - 4th(1964), 2nd(1965), 1st(1966), 8th(1967), 5th(1968), 4th(1970), 5th(1973)
Terry Harper - 5th(1964), 8th(1967)
Harry Howell - 5th(1964), 1st(1967)
Pat Stapleton - 3rd(1966), 4th(1971), 4th(1972)
J.C. Tremblay - 4th(1966), 5th(1967), 2nd(1968), 3rd(1971), 5th(1972)
Doug Barkley - 5th(1966)
Bobby Orr - 3rd(1967), 1st(1968), 1st(1969), 1st(1970), 1st(1971), 1st(1972), 1st(1973), 1st(1974), 1st(1975)
Gary Bergman - 6th(1967)
Doug Jarrett - 7th(1967)
Ted Green - 10th(1967), 3rd(1969)
Arnie Brown - 10th(1967)
Jim Neilson - 4th(1968), 5th(1970)
Ted Harris - 4th(1969)
Al Arbour - 5th(1969)
Brad Park - 2nd(1970), 2nd(1971), 2nd(1972), 3rd(1973), 2nd(1974), 2nd(1976), 2nd(1978), 8th(1979), 9th(1981)
Bob Baun - 5th(1971)
Keith Magnuson - 5th(1971)
Bill White - 3rd(1972), 3rd(1973), 3rd(1974)
Guy Lapointe - 2nd(1973), 3rd(1975), 4th(1976), 4th(1977), 5th(1978), 5th(1979)
Barry Ashby - 4th(1974)
Borje Salming - 5th(1974), 4th(1975), 3rd(1976), 2nd(1977), 4th(1978), 3rd(1979), 2nd(1980), 10th(1981)
Denis Potvin - 2nd(1975), 1st(1976), 3rd(1977), 1st(1978), 1st(1979), 2nd(1981), 8th(1982), 4th(1984), 10th(1988)
Serge Savard - 5th(1975), 5th(1976), 5th(1977), 4th(1979)
Larry Robinson - 1st(1977), 3rd(1978), 2nd(1979), 1st(1980), 3rd(1981), 5th(1982), 3rd(1986), 4th(1987)
Robert Picard - 6th(1979)
Barry Beck - 7th(1979), 7th(1982), 9th(1984)
Ron Stackhouse - 9th(1979)
Reed Larson - 10th(1979), 10th(1985)
Phil Russell - 10th(1979)
Stefan Persson - 10th(1979)
Jim Schoenfeld - 3rd(1980)
Ray Bourque - 4th(1980), 4th(1981), 2nd(1982), 3rd(1983), 3rd(1984), 2nd(1985), 4th(1986), 1st(1987), 1st(1988), 4th(1989), 1st(1990), 1st(1991), 2nd(1992), 2nd(1993), 1st(1994), 3rd(1995), 2nd(1996), 7th(1997), 7th(1998), 3rd(1999), 7th(2000), 2nd(2001)
Mark Howe - 5th(1980), 10th(1981), 2nd(1983), 10th(1984), 6th(1985), 2nd(1986), 2nd(1987), 9th(1988)
Randy Carlyle - 1st(1981), 7th(1985)
Rod Langway - 5th(1981), 9th(1982), 1st(1983), 1st(1984), 3rd(1985), 5th(1986)
Brian Engblom - 6th(1981), 6th(1982)
Larry Murphy - 7th(1981), 3rd(1987), 5th(1992), 3rd(1993), 7th(1994), 4th(1995), 6th(1998)
Rob Ramage - 8th(1981)
Doug Wilson - 1st(1982), 4th(1983), 4th(1985), 3rd(1990)
Paul Coffey - 3rd(1982), 5th(1983), 2nd(1984), 1st(1985), 1st(1986), 5th(1987), 7th(1988), 2nd(1989), 4th(1990), 5th(1991), 9th(1993), 7th(1994), 1st(1995), 5th(1996)
Craig Hartsberg - 4th(1982)
Kevin Lowe - 10th(1982), 7th(1985), 5th(1988), 8th(1989)
Phil Housley - 5th(1984), 9th(1989), 5th(1990), 3rd(1992), 5th(1993), 10th(1999)
Charlie Huddy - 6th(1984)
Mike O`Connell - 6th(1984)
Scott Stevens - 6th(1984), 5th(1985), 6th(1987), 2nd(1988), 10th(1989), 7th(1991), 4th(1992), 10th(1993), 2nd(1994), 9th(1996), 5th(1997), 4th(1998), 6th(1999), 10th(2000), 3rd(2001), 10th(2002)
Mario Marois - 10th(1984), 8th(1987)
Mike Ramsey - 10th(1984)
Ken Morrow - 10th(1984), 7th(1990)
Brad Marsh - 7th(1985)
Dave Babych - 6th(1986)
Al MacInnis - 6th(1987), 3rd(1989), 2nd(1990), 2nd(1991), 8th(1992), 3rd(1994), 8th(1998), 1st(1999), 8th(2000), 7th(2001), 2nd(2003)
Rick Green - 9th(1987)
Ulf Samuelsson - 10th(1987), 10th(1993)
Gary Suter - 3rd(1988), 7th(1989), 7th(1993), 8th(1996)
Brad McCrimmon - 4th(1988), 6th(1989)
Chris Chelios - 6th(1988), 1st(1989), 8th(1990), 3rd(1991), 6th(1992), 1st(1993), 6th(1994), 2nd(1995), 1st(1996), 4th(1997), 6th(2000), 2nd(2002)
James Patrick - 7th(1988), 8th(1991)
Steve Duchesne - 5th(1989), 7th(1993)
Al Iafrate - 6th(1990), 6th(1993)
Paul Cavallini - 9th(1990)
Craig Ludwig - 10th(1990)
Brian Leetch - 10th(1990), 4th(1991), 1st(1992), 5th(1994), 3rd(1996), 1st(1997), 8th(1999), 4th(2001), 9th(2002)
Jamie Macoun - 10th(1990)
Kevin Hatcher - 6th(1991), 7th(1992), 4th(1993)
Sergei Zubov - 4th(1994), 9th(1998), 9th(2000), 8th(2001), 8th(2003), 3rd(2006), 9th(2007)
Nicklas Lidstrom - 7th(1994), 6th(1996), 6th(1997), 2nd(1998), 2nd(1999), 2nd(2000), 1st(2001), 1st(2002), 1st(2003), 6th(2004), 1st(2006), 1st(2007), 1st(2008), 3rd(2009)
Sandis Ozolinsh - 7th(1994), 3rd(1997)
Vladimir Konstantinov - 4th(1996), 2nd(1997)
Roman Hamrlik - 7th(1996)
Eric Desjardins - 9th(1996), 9th(1997), 5th(1999), 4th(2000), 10th(2001)
Daryl Sydor - 7th(1997)
Oleg Tverdovsky - 10th(1997)
Rob Blake - 1st(1998), 3rd(2000), 3rd(2001), 3rd(2002), 5th(2003), 8th(2004)
Chris Pronger - 3rd(1998), 4th(1999), 1st(2000), 10th(2001), 5th(2002), 3rd(2004), 7th(2006), 3rd(2007), 8th(2008)
Scott Niedermayer - 5th(1998), 1st(2004), 2nd(2006), 2nd(2007), 10th(2008), 10th(2009)
Teppo Numminen - 10th(1998), 7th(2002)
Darian Hatcher - 7th(1999), 3rd(2003)
Fredrick Olausson - 9th(1999)
Sergei Gonchar - 5th(2000), 6th(2001), 4th(2002), 4th(2003), 9th(2004), 7th(2007), 4th(2008)
Brian Rafalski - 9th(2001), 9th(2008), 9th(2009)
Ed Jovanovski - 6th(2002), 6th(2003)
Adrian Aucoin - 8th(2002), 5th(2004)
Mattias Ohlund - 10th(2002)
Zdeno Chara - 8th(2003), 2nd(2004), 4th(2006), 3rd(2008), 1st(2009)
Wade Redden - 9th(2003), 10th(2004), 5th(2006)
Adam Foote - 10th(2003)
Bryan McCabe - 4th(2004), 9th(2006)
Mathieu Schneider - 7th(2004), 6th(2006)
Dion Pheneuf - 8th(2006), 6th(2007), 2nd(2008)
Lubomir Visnovsky - 10th(2006)
Dan Boyle - 4th(2007), 5th(2009)
Kimmo Timonen - 5th(2007)
Sheldon Souray - 8th(2007)
Bryan Campbell - 9th(2007), 5th(2008)
Andrei Markov - 6th(2008), 6th(2009)
Mike Green - 7th(2008), 2nd(2009)
Shea Weber – 4th(2009)
Duncan Keith – 6th(2009)
Mark Streit – 8th(2009)
This thread was originally started to exclude instances where a player received a single vote as it wasn't really evidence of much. Does the above list from dreakmur include or exclude those instances?
i just figured it's a good starting point to start going through and finding the singles and eliminate them.
With my top-10 list above, these are the only guys who made the top-10 with a single vote.
T10. Ted Green, Bos 1 (1-0)
T10. Leo Boivin, Det 1 (1-0)
T10. Arnie Brown, NYR 1 (1-0)
Phil Russell, Chi/Atl 1; Reed Larson, Det 1; Stefan Persson, NYI 1
Charlie Huddy 3 (0-1-0); Mike O’Connell 3 (0-1-0); Scott Stevens 3 (0-1-0); Barry Beck 2 (0-0-2); Mario Marois 1 (0-0-1); Mark Howe 1 (0-0-1); Mike Ramsey 1 (0-0-1); Ken Morrow 1 (0-0-1)
Brad Marsh 3 (0-1-0); Kevin Lowe 3 (0-1-0); Randy Carlyle 3 (0-0-3); Reed Larson 1 (0-0-1)
Dave Babych 1 (0-0-1)
Denis Potvin 1 (0-0-1)
Chris Chelios 3 (0-1-0); Craig Ludwig 1 (0-0-1); Brian Leetch 1 (0-0-1); Jamie Macoun 1 (0-0-1)
Al MacInnis 1 (0-0-1)
Steve Duchesne 5 (1-0-0); Scott Stevens 1 (0-0-1); Ulf Samuelsson 1 (0-0-1)
Paul Coffey 1 (0-0-1); Nicklas Lidstrom 1 (0-0-1); Sandis Ozolinsh 1 (0-0-1); Larry Murphy 1 (0-0-1)
Steve Duchesne 0 (0-0-0); Brian Leetch 0 (0-0-0)
---- don't think I put these two in the top-10 list, but they were listed in the voting records as top-10 without getting any votes...
Starting I 1996, they went to a 5-name ballot, so it would be almost impossible to get into the top-10 with a single vote….. so I didn’t even look at 1996 to present.
They at least won their heats, so to speak.
Is there a possibility to get this list updated??
I found it extremely... helpful/useful/awesome!
Edit: found it... http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=979927
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