HFBoards

HFBoards (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/index.php)
-   New York Rangers (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24)
-   -   Prucha and Girardi (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=524790)

battlerex99 06-15-2008 11:29 PM

Prucha and Girardi
 
I just want to throw a couple of things out there about two of my favorite Rangers, Petr Prucha and Dan Girardi.

1) Petr Prucha

05-06: 68gp, 30g, 17a, 16ppg ATOI: 13:42 (1st line)
06-07: 79gp, 22g, 18a, 8ppg ATOI: 13:00 (3rd line)
07-08: 62gp, 7g, 10a, 2ppg ATOI: 11:38 (3rd + 4th line)

Now, the first year is his rookie year when he played with Jagr, but even then, look at the number of games played and the average time on ice. Jagr was averaging 22:05 minutes of ice time per game, so almost half the time he was out there without Prucha. His second year, Prucha still had a very good year, considering the ice time he got. People say he "declined," but they fail to notice that he led all players with under 15 minutes ATOI in goal scoring that year. He was also playing on the third line that year, with Cullen and Callahan. Yet, despite this, he had the exact same number of even strength goals. Thus, his success is NOT tied completely to Jagr's. The only reason he "declined" at all was because Shanahan took away his PP time.

This past year was a disaster for Prucha, as he barely got any playing time at all with any of the top forwards, and even when he did get to play he was constantly being moved around onto different lines. How is he supposed to build chemistry if that keeps happening? The key to Prucha's success is how apt he is on the power play, so he should be getting time there. He also needs to be put on a line and kept there (I personally think a third line of Prucha - Korpikoski - Callahan would be excellent). It's clear to me that this guy is underutilized, the stats show it.

Also, since the biggest knock on Prucha is his size, I'd just like to point out that Prucha (6'0", 175 pounds) and our top prospect, Alexei Cherepanov (6'1", 181 pounds) are about the same thickness. Yet, one is too small and the other is fine. Go figure. Give the guy a shot. Of all the 05-06 rookies, he had the fourth most goals in his first two years behind a few big names: Ovechkin, Crosby, and Vanek. I'm not saying that he's nearly as good as any of those guys, but he's not as far off as you'd think.



2) Dan Girardi
First off, I would like to point out that last year was, officially, his ROOKIE SEASON. Now look at these numbers:

82gp, 10g, 18a, +0, 5ppg, 6ppa ATOI: 21:12 (palindrome!)

Now compare that to our supposed "super-rookie" Marc Staal:

80gp, 2g, 8a, +2, 0ppg, 0ppa ATOI: 18:48

Now, why are we all sticking Marc Staal in our first pairs and concluding that Girardi is a second pair defenseman at best? It's not as if there's a big size difference between the two (Girardi is 6'2", 200 pounds, Staal is 6'4", 204 pounds). Most of the goals given up on the Tyutin-Girardi pair at the end of the year were Tyutin's fault anyway. Now let's look at one of our favorite free agent defenseman, John-Michael Liles, who is a bit undersized at 5'10", 185 pounds:

81gp, 6g, 26a, +2, 5ppg, 15ppa ATOI: 19:40

So this guy is worth $4+ million to be on our first pair and Girardi isn't good enough? I see a player with 4 more points, a lot less size, less time on ice, and is 3 years older... oh and with a worse shot. Huh, makes me wonder.

My point: Girardi should be on our first pair next year. Marc Staal could be great, but he ain't there yet. Girardi's a lot closer.

;)

Richter35 06-15-2008 11:34 PM

that still doesnt take away from the fact that if we go into next season with girardi as a top pair defenseman, bring the lube 'cause we're ****ed. We still need that puck mover/pp qb (i'd love to swing something for zidlicky if after signing suter/weber nash needs to trim salary), which dan the man is not.

Jaromir Jagr 06-15-2008 11:35 PM

Stat searchin' ain't impressin' me.


Watching Marc Staal play the 90 games he did impressed me.

Watching Dan Girardi play the first 30 games of the season amazing then slowly decline all the way until the Devils series and then suck again in the Pittsburgh series didn't impress me.

Stick to defense, Dan.

battlerex99 06-15-2008 11:39 PM

Someone comment on Prucha please. That was the main reason I made this thread, I just threw Girardi in there because I was bored.

Also, when Girardi started to finally get power play time at the end of the year he did pretty well. He's quite apt at getting his shot through.

Girardi also had what I would call the Brooks Orpik effect. Orpik gets criticized a lot for his defense because Sergei Gonchar is such a buffoon when it comes to defensive responsibility. Thus, Orpik ended up looking terrible out there sometimes when he was really the Pens best defensive defenseman. Tyutin was great at the beginning of the year, and thus Girardi looked great alongside him. Girardi did not really decline all that much during the year, it was Tyutin who absolutely, ball-blisteringly sucked at the end of the year. Thus, Girardi looked bad. Marc Staal had Paul Mara and Michal Rozsival as partners this year. Those guys are a bit better than Tyutin.

Carlos Ranger 06-15-2008 11:42 PM

Yea examining the stats and concluding that Girardi > Staal right now, I won't agree with. Staal was much more consistent, even though Girardi's offensive production was damn surprising. I'd still rather Liles or Streit on our powerplay than Girardi-Tyutin.

battlerex99 06-15-2008 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DruMez (Post 14419737)
Yea examining the stats and concluding that Girardi > Staal right now, I won't agree with. Staal was much more consistent, even though Girardi's offensive production was damn surprising. I'd still rather Liles or Streit on our powerplay than Girardi-Tyutin.

Streit's a different story than Liles. Streit is a lot cheaper and would play on our third defensive pairing. I wouldn't mind that signing at all.

Also, just because Girardi is out there on the power play doesn't mean that Tyutin's out there too... Girardi and Streit would make a hell of a first PP defensive pairing.

COMMENT ON PRUCHA.

Carlos Ranger 06-15-2008 11:48 PM

I don't know if there's anything left to be said about Prucha that hasn't been discussed ad-nauseum on these forums for the past 2+ years. You're right.

Hockey2000nyr 06-15-2008 11:52 PM

well number one girardi saw a lot more Power play time then staal did. girardi is 24 staal is 21. staal was by far our most consistent defenseman all year. you can put up all the points you want as a defenseman, but if u dont do ur job in ur own zone consistently all year then ur not that very good.

if the rangers dont think prucha will be able to grab a spot this year then id rather see them trade him, they dont use him in the correct way and when our powerplay was clicking the first year back from the lockout, prucha was scoring on it, since then our pp has sucked and renney just doesnt want to use him on the pp anymore. it just boggles my mind over that

Brooklyn Ranger 06-16-2008 12:19 AM

Sorry, I don't agree about Girardi--the more minutes he played, the worse he looked. Yes, he does have a decent shot, but playing him more than 18-20 minutes a game will cut down on his effectiveness.

As for Prucha, if he's still here come October, I'm all for having him play a consistant role on the 3rd line.

Gardner McKay 06-16-2008 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battlerex99 (Post 14419620)
I just want to throw a couple of things out there about two of my favorite Rangers, Petr Prucha and Dan Girardi.

1) Petr Prucha

05-06: 68gp, 30g, 17a, 16ppg ATOI: 13:42 (1st line)
06-07: 79gp, 22g, 18a, 8ppg ATOI: 13:00 (3rd line)
07-08: 62gp, 7g, 10a, 2ppg ATOI: 11:38 (3rd + 4th line)

Now, the first year is his rookie year when he played with Jagr, but even then, look at the number of games played and the average time on ice. Jagr was averaging 22:05 minutes of ice time per game, so almost half the time he was out there without Prucha. His second year, Prucha still had a very good year, considering the ice time he got. People say he "declined," but they fail to notice that he led all players with under 15 minutes ATOI in goal scoring that year. He was also playing on the third line that year, with Cullen and Callahan. Yet, despite this, he had the exact same number of even strength goals. Thus, his success is NOT tied completely to Jagr's. The only reason he "declined" at all was because Shanahan took away his PP time.

This past year was a disaster for Prucha, as he barely got any playing time at all with any of the top forwards, and even when he did get to play he was constantly being moved around onto different lines. How is he supposed to build chemistry if that keeps happening? The key to Prucha's success is how apt he is on the power play, so he should be getting time there. He also needs to be put on a line and kept there (I personally think a third line of Prucha - Korpikoski - Callahan would be excellent). It's clear to me that this guy is underutilized, the stats show it.

Also, since the biggest knock on Prucha is his size, I'd just like to point out that Prucha (6'0", 175 pounds) and our top prospect, Alexei Cherepanov (6'1", 181 pounds) are about the same thickness. Yet, one is too small and the other is fine. Go figure. Give the guy a shot. Of all the 05-06 rookies, he had the fourth most goals in his first two years behind a few big names: Ovechkin, Crosby, and Vanek. I'm not saying that he's nearly as good as any of those guys, but he's not as far off as you'd think.


2) Dan Girardi
First off, I would like to point out that last year was, officially, his ROOKIE SEASON. Now look at these numbers:

82gp, 10g, 18a, +0, 5ppg, 6ppa ATOI: 21:12 (palindrome!)

Now compare that to our supposed "super-rookie" Marc Staal:

80gp, 2g, 8a, +2, 0ppg, 0ppa ATOI: 18:48

Now, why are we all sticking Marc Staal in our first pairs and concluding that Girardi is a second pair defenseman at best? It's not as if there's a big size difference between the two (Girardi is 6'2", 200 pounds, Staal is 6'4", 204 pounds). Most of the goals given up on the Tyutin-Girardi pair at the end of the year were Tyutin's fault anyway. Now let's look at one of our favorite free agent defenseman, John-Michael Liles, who is a bit undersized at 5'10", 185 pounds:

81gp, 6g, 26a, +2, 5ppg, 15ppa ATOI: 19:40

So this guy is worth $4+ million to be on our first pair and Girardi isn't good enough? I see a player with 4 more points, a lot less size, less time on ice, and is 3 years older... oh and with a worse shot. Huh, makes me wonder.

My point: Girardi should be on our first pair next year. Marc Staal could be great, but he ain't there yet. Girardi's a lot closer.

;)


STaal routinely played against the other teams top lines. Girardi and Tyutin did not as much.

Theres your answer. Play girardi on the top dpair and watch his numbers crumble

Lundqvist=Vezina 06-16-2008 02:45 AM

Staal dominated the postseason while Girardi was mediocre.

As for Prucha, I still think he can score 20 goals and be a decent 2nd liner if he can avoid being hit so often and so hard.

shon 06-16-2008 05:58 AM

From this off season thread I see people still have their Staal coloured glasses on.
I think he did well for a rookie. He will be a great player.
Everyone cut down Rosival's play ,well it was Staal who made HIM look bad.
It is hard to cover both sides of the ice , never knowing where your partner is.
That last goal that ended our season. Watch what Staal was doing on the play .Alot blamed it on the puck going off Girardi's leg right to Hossa. Girardi had Crosby perfectly who was watching Hossa.??? just an example of a play that Staal would never be held responsible for but his partner is.
I said it before and now i can say I told you so. We would never do well with Staal on the first d pairing. But we did develop him so I guess all is not lost.
Just a random thought .
Staal and Girardi as our first pairing if we don't sign top defender.

eco's bones 06-16-2008 07:38 AM

Staal was really impressive last year. The guy is solid and is only going to get better. He particularly shined in the playoffs. He was our best d-man.

I like Girardi a lot but I see him as a good top 4 guy. Staal has first pairing written all over him. His game looks somewhere between a Larry Robinson and a Rod Langway. That's elite company. Girardi and his partner Tyutin may have just worn down over the course of the season. Too many of the older guys--Malik, Mara, Backman just couldn't do the job. Girardi all in all had a nice season--showed an offensive side to his game. He plays physical but he stays out of the box. That's a very underrated quality for a young defenseman--something that some don't fully appreciate. There are things he still has to learn to do better. For his first full NHL season he was very good.

We've been going over Prucha quite a lot the last few days. Petr is very one dimensional and when he's not scoring he is not helping. He's not particularly good defensively. He doesn't penalty kill. He has size and strength issues--he is still as scrawny as when he first came. He needs more muscle. He could not cement a spot on any line last year. I don't know how much longer he's going to be around if he can't up his competitive level.

WhipNash27 06-16-2008 08:12 AM

Why compare Staal, our stud defensemen who is primed to be a number one, to Girardi, who is our undrafted defenseman who is going to be a #3/4?

People are silly

Stepan Razor 06-16-2008 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shon (Post 14420742)
From this off season thread I see people still have their Staal coloured glasses on.
I think he did well for a rookie. He will be a great player.
Everyone cut down Rosival's play ,well it was Staal who made HIM look bad.
It is hard to cover both sides of the ice , never knowing where your partner is.
That last goal that ended our season. Watch what Staal was doing on the play .Alot blamed it on the puck going off Girardi's leg right to Hossa. Girardi had Crosby perfectly who was watching Hossa.??? just an example of a play that Staal would never be held responsible for but his partner is.
I said it before and now i can say I told you so. We would never do well with Staal on the first d pairing. But we did develop him so I guess all is not lost.
Just a random thought .
Staal and Girardi as our first pairing if we don't sign top defender.

For what it's worth I don't agree with most of your post, but I will concede that this team didn't even have a 1 or 2 defenseman last season. Staal made some mistakes but usually recovered from them, and that's what you like to see from a growing defenseman. As far as his turnover in Game 5, that was probably the worst play he made all season. Take a look at all the battles he won against NHL VETERANS and you'll see that he was our most consistent defender. Again, that's not saying he's a #1. He'll get there but he's not there yet.

As far as the other defensemen, what about Rozsival's turnover in game 1 at the blueline, when he decided to come up the left side of the ice while leaving three pens unguarded in the defensive zone? Yeah where was the winger (changing), but that's as big a defensive mistake as there is.

Trxjw 06-16-2008 09:00 AM

Take a look at Staal's post-season numbers to get a real indication of how the coaches feel about him. He'd be #1 in TOI if he got as much PP time as Rozsival, but was #2 with only 7 minutes of time on the man-advantage.

As for Prucha, the quality of his line-mates was pretty lousy for most of the season. I think playing with Jagr for 13 minutes a game is a hell of a lot better than playing with Callahan and Drury for 11 minutes, or Betts and Orr/Sjostrom for that matter.

That said, I don't see him getting that kinda time here ever again.

Forechecker 06-16-2008 09:25 AM

There is no way Prucha is 6'0". I met him this year, without skates, and he's barely taller than I am, and I'm 5'9".

Trxjw 06-16-2008 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forechecker (Post 14421565)
There is no way Prucha is 6'0". I met him this year, without skates, and he's barely taller than I am, and I'm 5'9".

Yeah I don't think he is either. I could've sworn NYR.com had him listed at 5'11 165 for a while.

Turambar 06-16-2008 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battlerex99 (Post 14419763)


COMMENT ON PRUCHA.

The bottom line is that Prucha simply isn't an important cog in the Rangers machine.

If Prucha wants to play for the Rangers, he needs to adjust to them, not the other way around.

NYR Viper 06-16-2008 09:38 AM

as much as i like girardi, i think he is a good #4 and an average #3 right now....teams cant play players out of position....he looks good against second lines and the occasional shift against opposing teams top lines but when he plays a very good opponent(malkin) consistently he looks overwhelmed......keep him on the 2nd pairing

prucha, IMO, as i have stated many times doesnt fit the system in NY.

Fletch 06-16-2008 09:39 AM

one comment...
 
Prucha was not a first liner with Jagr during his first season. He played with Jagr during that first season in a number of games, but played more with Betts than with Jagr and played more with Rucchin than with Jagr, which is why there's such a disparity in ice time.

I agree with Brooklyn on Girardi. As his responsibilities increased and his ice time increased, he seemd to make more mistakes.

WhipNash27 06-16-2008 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch (Post 14421674)
I agree with Brooklyn on Girardi. As his responsibilities increased and his ice time increased, he seemed to make more mistakes.

and so did Tyutin. We all know that Staal is better and say what you will about Rozsival, but Staal had the luxury of playing with a veteran while Girardi played with a 3rd year Defenseman and Tyutin with practically a rookie.

SupersonicMonkey* 06-16-2008 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battlerex99 (Post 14419620)
I just want to throw a couple of things out there about two of my favorite Rangers, Petr Prucha and Dan Girardi.

1) Petr Prucha

05-06: 68gp, 30g, 17a, 16ppg ATOI: 13:42 (1st line)
06-07: 79gp, 22g, 18a, 8ppg ATOI: 13:00 (3rd line)
07-08: 62gp, 7g, 10a, 2ppg ATOI: 11:38 (3rd + 4th line)

Now, the first year is his rookie year when he played with Jagr, but even then, look at the number of games played and the average time on ice. Jagr was averaging 22:05 minutes of ice time per game, so almost half the time he was out there without Prucha. His second year, Prucha still had a very good year, considering the ice time he got. People say he "declined," but they fail to notice that he led all players with under 15 minutes ATOI in goal scoring that year. He was also playing on the third line that year, with Cullen and Callahan. Yet, despite this, he had the exact same number of even strength goals. Thus, his success is NOT tied completely to Jagr's. The only reason he "declined" at all was because Shanahan took away his PP time.

This past year was a disaster for Prucha, as he barely got any playing time at all with any of the top forwards, and even when he did get to play he was constantly being moved around onto different lines. How is he supposed to build chemistry if that keeps happening? The key to Prucha's success is how apt he is on the power play, so he should be getting time there. He also needs to be put on a line and kept there (I personally think a third line of Prucha - Korpikoski - Callahan would be excellent). It's clear to me that this guy is underutilized, the stats show it.

Also, since the biggest knock on Prucha is his size, I'd just like to point out that Prucha (6'0", 175 pounds) and our top prospect, Alexei Cherepanov (6'1", 181 pounds) are about the same thickness. Yet, one is too small and the other is fine. Go figure. Give the guy a shot. Of all the 05-06 rookies, he had the fourth most goals in his first two years behind a few big names: Ovechkin, Crosby, and Vanek. I'm not saying that he's nearly as good as any of those guys, but he's not as far off as you'd think.



2) Dan Girardi
First off, I would like to point out that last year was, officially, his ROOKIE SEASON. Now look at these numbers:

82gp, 10g, 18a, +0, 5ppg, 6ppa ATOI: 21:12 (palindrome!)

Now compare that to our supposed "super-rookie" Marc Staal:

80gp, 2g, 8a, +2, 0ppg, 0ppa ATOI: 18:48

Now, why are we all sticking Marc Staal in our first pairs and concluding that Girardi is a second pair defenseman at best? It's not as if there's a big size difference between the two (Girardi is 6'2", 200 pounds, Staal is 6'4", 204 pounds). Most of the goals given up on the Tyutin-Girardi pair at the end of the year were Tyutin's fault anyway. Now let's look at one of our favorite free agent defenseman, John-Michael Liles, who is a bit undersized at 5'10", 185 pounds:

81gp, 6g, 26a, +2, 5ppg, 15ppa ATOI: 19:40

So this guy is worth $4+ million to be on our first pair and Girardi isn't good enough? I see a player with 4 more points, a lot less size, less time on ice, and is 3 years older... oh and with a worse shot. Huh, makes me wonder.

My point: Girardi should be on our first pair next year. Marc Staal could be great, but he ain't there yet. Girardi's a lot closer.

;)

I commend you for defending Prucha.

However, please do not compare him to Cherepanov. Not in size and not in skill.


Cherepanov is on another planet as far as skill goes.


And as far as size goes... Cherepanov is only 19 years old at 6-1 185.

Whereas, Prucha is a mature 25 year old. And only weighs 175 pounds.

That is the difference.

nyr2k2 06-16-2008 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PruBlue25 (Post 14421122)
Why compare Staal, our stud defensemen who is primed to be a number one, to Girardi, who is our undrafted defenseman who is going to be a #3/4?

People are silly

I think the OP was asking WHY Girardi is considered a 3/4 when he statistically outproduced our stud, future #1. There are plenty of reasons, but way to go in not even bothering to address any of them.

Staal hasn't approached his potential. Girardi looks to have maxed out or come close. Staal plays against top lines, Girardi generally doesn't (or not as much). Girardi spent 3 seasons playing professional hockey before last season, whereas Staal had played none.

WhipNash27 06-16-2008 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyr2k2 (Post 14421932)
I think the OP was asking WHY Girardi is considered a 3/4 when he statistically outproduced our stud, future #1. There are plenty of reasons, but way to go in not even bothering to address any of them.

Staal hasn't approached his potential. Girardi looks to have maxed out or come close. Staal plays against top lines, Girardi generally doesn't (or not as much). Girardi spent 3 seasons playing professional hockey before last season, whereas Staal had played none.

I never knew a defenseman maxes out his potential in his rookie season...


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:48 AM.

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com, A property of CraveOnline, a division of AtomicOnline LLC ©2009 CraveOnline Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved.