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-   -   Steve Sullivan... (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=52842)

Fletch 02-16-2004 08:35 PM

Steve Sullivan...
 
fetched 2 second round picks from Nashville...not a bad return for the 'Hawks, but is it what can be expected, picks not prospects...On another note, there may be a decent number of sellers in the market, maybe my idea of waiting to trade Kovalev isn't the best idea. Zhamnov may also be moved (heard all this during the CBJ/NASH game).

And if 2 second rounders is the going rate for Sully, Kovalev should fetch a decent return. Both are having similarly crappy seasons, but Kovalev's last four seasons trumps Sully, as well as his playoff experience. Not sure of Sully's contract status, but I don't know if having a guy like him signed up for a year or two adds much more value ('Hawks seemed not too happy they had this guy signed-up long-term originally).

AXN 02-16-2004 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch
fetched 2 second round picks from Nashville...not a bad return for the 'Hawks, but is it what can be expected, picks not prospects...On another note, there may be a decent number of sellers in the market, maybe my idea of waiting to trade Kovalev isn't the best idea. Zhamnov may also be moved (heard all this during the CBJ/NASH game).

And if 2 second rounders is the going rate for Sully, Kovalev should fetch a decent return. Both are having similarly crappy seasons, but Kovalev's last four seasons trumps Sully, as well as his playoff experience. Not sure of Sully's contract status, but I don't know if having a guy like him signed up for a year or two adds much more value ('Hawks seemed not too happy they had this guy signed-up long-term originally).

Anybody herd about Jagr's health?
I wonder if he is injured longterm, how it will affect trading Kovalev.

sickboy35 02-16-2004 09:57 PM

fletch!!
 
i think the rangers should trade alot of guys! do it now before something happens to them, ala mike richter a couple years ago. they are not gioing to make the playoffs no matter what anyone says, christ they can't even string together a 3 game winning streak! what makes anyone think they could do the impossible? everyone on this team is expendable as far as i'm concerned! not the younger ones, the leetch's and kovalevs. this team needs to get younger and tougher! after watching that pathetic display of hockey the past 2 games, it's just time! i don't want anybody getting hurt and us missing the boat on getting some young prospects and picks!

Janerixon 02-16-2004 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sickboy35
i think the rangers should trade alot of guys! do it now before something happens to them, ala mike richter a couple years ago. they are not gioing to make the playoffs no matter what anyone says, christ they can't even string together a 3 game winning streak! what makes anyone think they could do the impossible? everyone on this team is expendable as far as i'm concerned! not the younger ones, the leetch's and kovalevs. this team needs to get younger and tougher! after watching that pathetic display of hockey the past 2 games, it's just time! i don't want anybody getting hurt and us missing the boat on getting some young prospects and picks!

sickboy for the most part i agree but id hold onto leetch, he is one player who really does give his all and he is going to be the captain next season unless someone else really emerges

as far as vets id hold onto
holik, jagr and kasper we have to due to contract size
leetch, de Vries, markkanen, rucinsky, barnaby and simon ae the vets id keep (even though rosie, barney and simon are all at the end of there deals id like to see them back)
we keep poti (yep), lundmark, ortemeyer, wiseman, tyutin, and d-lac

players we can move
kovalev
nedved
mironov
dunham - we eat cash he backs up somone
malakhov (if healthy and takers, for depth purposes on a playoff team)
hlavac - just waive or release
heck id trade mess for future considerations to a young playoff team looking for a 4th line center who can win faceoffs (ie Mactavish, he could help someone) however the fossil wouldnt agree

sickboy35 02-16-2004 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janerixon
sickboy for the most part i agree but id hold onto leetch, he is one player who really does give his all and he is going to be the captain next season unless someone else really emerges

as far as vets id hold onto
holik, jagr and kasper we have to due to contract size
leetch, de Vries, markkanen, rucinsky, barnaby and simon ae the vets id keep (even though rosie, barney and simon are all at the end of there deals id like to see them back)
we keep poti (yep), lundmark, ortemeyer, wiseman, tyutin, and d-lac

players we can move
kovalev
nedved
mironov
dunham - we eat cash he backs up somone
malakhov (if healthy and takers, for depth purposes on a playoff team)
hlavac - just waive or release
heck id trade mess for future considerations to a young playoff team looking for a 4th line center who can win faceoffs (ie Mactavish, he could help someone) however the fossil wouldnt agree


i would like leetch to stay too, but lets be realistic about this. the rangers will not be going anywhere in the next couple of years, and leetch has another year left and he might retire after thats up. lets trade him and get some good young players and start the rebuilding! him kovie and nedved would get us some decent returns. leetch should retire a ranger, but unfortunetly this team will not get a sniff of the playoffs anytime sonn so we'd be doing him a favor by sending him to contender and let him get a cup before he retires. mess would be good for a young playoff team and playing the 4th line with some pp time on top of it!

Melrose_Jr. 02-17-2004 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch
if 2 second rounders is the going rate for Sully, Kovalev should fetch a decent return.

Why? Sullivan has more goals, assists and points in fewer games and on a team that's arguably worse than the Rangers.

JR#9* 02-17-2004 10:10 AM

I'd laso moved Rucinsky and Simon as both are on one yr deals.I liked how they played this year but you might as well get something for them and I think both will be very attractive for a contender and if both player and the NYR's are interested then they can be resigned come July.

Fletch 02-17-2004 10:56 AM

Mj...
 
you're talking about 3 fewer goals, one less assist, in 3 more games (or reverse that to 3 more goals, one more assist, in 3 less games). Not a material difference. And that's just this season, both on bad teams and getting about the same ice time. Chicago's may be worse, but as of now I don't know if you can say that. Again, it's not a material difference, and at least Sullivan didn't put in any significant time with Hlavac.

Melrose_Jr. 02-17-2004 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch
Not a material difference.

No, it's not, so I'm confused as to why a GM would offer more for one than the other. (assuming that's you're argument) Realistically, we should expect to get for Kovie what Chicago did for Sully, maybe less considering the number of similar style players that are potentially on the market.

TKLOOCH22 02-17-2004 11:05 AM

Not too mention Alexei's much bigger frame and undeniable skills. All traits that would be most welcome on this team if Kovalev could seem to produce on Broadway, but he can't get it done. So cut the ties and trade him for a return that should be equal to what Sullivan got or even more.

Fletch 02-17-2004 11:16 AM

Why more?
 
I'm thinking that if one were to choose between Sullivan and Kovalev for a playoff push, and through the playoffs, they'd choose Kovalev. Why? One is playoff experience. 83 games vs. 12. 27 goals, 40 assists versus 4 goals and 3 assists. Those are your material differences. Further, I think Kovalev has a greater ability to take over a game than Sullivan. Granted he hasn't worked out for the Rangers, as we've only seen flashes over the past year, but if he's on the market and XYZ team wants him, and YYZ team is competing against XYZ team, they may vie for him pushing up the value a bit more. Not sure how many Kovalevs are out there. I think most GMs aren't saying the guy sucks because he, along with numerous other players, can't cut it there.

Could he get a #1? I'm thinking that if Leetch can get a #1, then Kovalev can too.

Larry Melnyk 02-17-2004 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch
fetched 2 second round picks from Nashville...not a bad return for the 'Hawks, but is it what can be expected, picks not prospects...On another note, there may be a decent number of sellers in the market, maybe my idea of waiting to trade Kovalev isn't the best idea. Zhamnov may also be moved (heard all this during the CBJ/NASH game).

And if 2 second rounders is the going rate for Sully, Kovalev should fetch a decent return. Both are having similarly crappy seasons, but Kovalev's last four seasons trumps Sully, as well as his playoff experience. Not sure of Sully's contract status, but I don't know if having a guy like him signed up for a year or two adds much more value ('Hawks seemed not too happy they had this guy signed-up long-term originally).


As I mentioned yesterday, SATHER can not wait like he has in the past...There are too many teams that are sellers now (Like Chicago, Wash) or will make that decision in the coming week(s)..Sather has to be on the ball and making serious strides in trading these guys NOW...And, as we all know from the past (Mikey and Lindros this year), you wait too long with vets and you can get burned by injuries---and we know as Ranger fans that will happen...

And I get that feeling that guys like Leetch (if dealt) and Kovalev can bring back a real good return that will go a decent way in upgrading the pathetic organizational talent base....And guys like Simon, Barnaby, Rucinsky and maybe even a Miroov can bring something half decent also...As for the pair of Pansies in Purse-swinging Poti anf the Neutical Needing Nedved, I have no clue....But a team with solid D may have a use for Poti...

Bottom line is that the situation is right for Sather to deal, and only his delusions, smugness, and arrogance will be to blame if nothing is accomplished....

Melrose_Jr. 02-17-2004 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch
Not sure how many Kovalevs are out there.

If you mean Kovalev circa 2001, not many, but it's highly speculative that you're going to get that Kovalev. Speculative enough that, in my opinion, no one is going to pay a premium for him. Not when you've options like Sullivan, Bondra, Val Bure, O'Neil, guys who are putting up similar or better numbers, out there on the market.

sickboy35 02-17-2004 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
If you mean Kovalev circa 2001, not many, but it's highly speculative that you're going to get that Kovalev. Speculative enough that, in my opinion, no one is going to pay a premium for him. Not when you've options like Sullivan, Bondra, Val Bure, O'Neil, guys who are putting up similar or better numbers, out there on the market.


kovalev on any other team would dwarf those other players numbers! he is a true hockey talent, but for whatever resaon he can't do it in ny! put him on the wings? he scores 40-50 goals!

Fletch 02-17-2004 11:53 AM

I'm talking Kovalev...
 
circa February 2003, ex the playoffs...Heck, if you're talking about playoff performance, Leetch would net a fifth since he hasn't been there since 1997.

I believe he can make the difference on a good team. Heck, imagine him on Boston or Toronto?

Larry Melnyk 02-17-2004 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
If you mean Kovalev circa 2001, not many, but it's highly speculative that you're going to get that Kovalev. Speculative enough that, in my opinion, no one is going to pay a premium for him. Not when you've options like Sullivan, Bondra, Val Bure, O'Neil, guys who are putting up similar or better numbers, out there on the market.

I disagree, the Kovalev of 2002 was fantastic and kicking butt also--untill he became a Ranger...Just like the Rangers brass seems to do, you just can't focus on the numbers....Kovalev has his faults but is still a great hockey player and much more talented then any of the guys mentioned above....The right situation where he is able to play his game and supported by a strong TEAM base and system , with even a modicum of chemistry and a PP with a plan, will see him thriving once again..And my bet is that there are more then a few GMs that feel the same and will be willing to pay for it with some of their future...We shall see..

Bluenote13 02-17-2004 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk
I disagree, the Kovalev of 2002 was fantastic and kicking butt also--untill he became a Ranger....

It's not a coincidence or a 'Ranger' jinx, or the pressure to perform in NY, or the Ghost of Blizblam past - it's the fact this team has not had a real NHL coach in about a decade.

The experiment/philosophy that a team made up of creative, smooth skating players(with guys like Simon & Dale for punch) will break the trap & return hockey to its past glory is over, it has failed, for way too long now.

I don't think this Ranger team is as bad as the numbers look, if these guys had a coach like Hitchcock, Murray, or even Lemaire you think they'd be out of a playoff spot?

Time to restock, start selling and take the draft picks & prospects, we could always buy more vets down the line. Then onto a new coach, which i'm afraid to see who TLB would hire knowing his past selections.

True Blue 02-17-2004 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluenote13
It's not a coincidence or a 'Ranger' jinx, or the pressure to perform in NY, or the Ghost of Blizblam past - it's the fact this team has not had a real NHL coach in about a decade.

What do you expect? AFter they traded for Jagr, Jackass waited 2 weeks before deciding that it was time for a practice? They are about as poorly coached a team as there has EVER existed in the NHL. And EVERY game reflects the lack of practice and lack of conditioning (hand in hand w/ lack of practice).

"and at least Sullivan didn't put in any significant time with Hlavac."

Trying to decide. What is worse Tik III or Hlavac II?

Fletch 02-17-2004 01:35 PM

It's not a jinx...
 
Look at the coaches Kovalev had to deal with...he was successful as a yoot with Keenan, then never blossomed under the auspices of Campbell, Muckler and now Sather. Then he goes to PITT and was successful under Constantine, a decent coach albeit a dick (a plug for Davisian), and others.

It's the organization, not so much the pressure.

JCProdigy 02-17-2004 06:34 PM

Despite injury worries, you usually want to wait until near the deadline before you sell off your guys. Teams have a better idea what they will need for the stretch run by that time. Also the closer it gets to that date, one could argue that teams tend to get ansy and overpay for players ala detroit for Schneider last year, Flyers for Oates. There will always be alot of sellers every year so that is really no concern because there are alot of buyers every year also. Calculated risk but one worth taking IMO.

Also Kovalev should net a nice return because of the overpaying factor and honestly his UFA status will benefit his trade value more then hurt it with the CBA issues coming up. Sometimes GM's know that a change of teams will spark a player and i bet there's a few GMs out there who think this way about kovalev and would be willing to pay for it.

Also it would be easier for Rangers to get picks for these players then prospects so that is more likely to happen. Other teams would be more willing to give up a pick then a youth who they've already gotten to see closely over the past one or two years and know what they should expect from them.

Edge 02-17-2004 07:04 PM

another season and we are already out of it.... gosh we didn't even clear February this time. Instead of making progress we've actually gotten worse over 7 years.

Right now we are slated to draft 7th.

But I expect Atlanta to pass us, which moves us to 6th. and we are just a good "effort" away from having the canes pass us which would put us at fifth.

looking into my crystal ball, we will get a quality prospect but yoyo him and eventually trade him for a 32 year old Brendan Witt.........

god i love this team.


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