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-   -   kingkipper reports: "It is the same team for next season" (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=529905)

Complacent Iggy 06-30-2008 09:19 AM

kingkipper reports: "It is the same team for next season"
 
I see we're going to have pretty much the same team next season, minus Tanguay for Camellari who had a bad season last year. Is it just me or is this bad news? We finished 7th last year, and 8th the year before that with 2 1st round exits. I'm no expert but if we had such mediocre years the last two seasons why keep the team together? Other than Iggy, Phaneuf, Kipper and Regher I say shake things up.

Hyde 06-30-2008 09:33 AM

Is this your opinion or the opinion of the Calgary Herald? And if the Herald was it a reputable reporter or crazy Doh Boy who to put it nicely is full of it and for the most part speaks only to hear himself talk.

Complacent Iggy 06-30-2008 10:18 AM

It's just my opinion, you always hear gms and coaches say if you're not getting better, you're getting worse. If thats the case and there are no changes to a team thats pretty much in the middle of the pack, how can we expect them to be contenders?

Hyde 06-30-2008 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingkipper (Post 14623985)
It's just my opinion, you always hear gms and coaches say if you're not getting better, you're getting worse. If thats the case and there are no changes to a team thats pretty much in the middle of the pack, how can we expect them to be contenders?


Ah I see, well because it is your opinion I've edited the title. ;)

Stupefied 06-30-2008 10:34 AM

This is an underperforming team, a very good core that can get you into the playoffs, and while the secondary scoring isnt quite there, all we need is for the bottem 6 is to not bleed goals against.

The teams defence looks very good, and except for a gaff or two from a certain somebody, they would certainly do very well. Kipper had an off year, I dont beleive he had a very good start and I think while a more offensive system was in place, He performed worse then what he should have, an off-year and a playoffs that aside from the first game, quickly became a nightmare. Hopefully he can rebound, but that we even made the playoffs while facing adversity in our goaltending gives me hope, as we have three more very good goalie prospects coming through the system, and hopefully one of them would be a suitable replacement if Kipper continues to slide.

The Flames do not need to blow things up, they made the playoffs despite being top heavy in scoring, and a goalie having a bad year. And once your in the playoffs, anything can happen. Being a bit younger, they probably wont perform as well on paper, but if any of Boyd, Nystrom, Lombardi or Moss can have a break out season even just moving up to second line scorers, they can continue to improve.

The Northwest isnt quite the scary place it was, Minny is losing a few peices, Colorado has lost theodore, and their stars are another year older, Edmonton has improved, and Vancouver could really go either way and we'll see that in this Free agency.

Why anybody would blow up a team that has a strong possibility to make the playoffs is beyond me, wait until they start finishing 10th in the West and worse. let them play.

Ticonderoga 06-30-2008 04:54 PM

I think it is too early to make this kind of assumption.

abracanada 06-30-2008 05:09 PM

TO likes to blow things up every few years. Teams that do that, don't have players signing at home town discounts. Teams that do that have a managerial revolving door.

The Flames had a few disgruntled star players and a star goalie who underperformed last year. As far as an underperforming supporting cast, the teams seems to be dealing with that quite nicely.

All I can say is that I hope Kipper learned something and comes in shape. Otherwise, he wont get along with Keenan any better this year. Looking forward to this team staying the course and improving.

ArizonaGreenTea 06-30-2008 05:24 PM

I see where you're coming from, this year's team will have the same jerseys (minus shoulder patch), play in the same city/arena, will still have the same president/GM/coach and some of the players will be the same, only a year older.

Yep.

Seriously though, blow things up? Are you mental?

Red Deer Rebel 06-30-2008 05:44 PM

No need to blow up the team, but the OS is correct in pointing out that the Flames are standing still at best. In fact, Sutter has the Flames going backwards.

Let's compare major roster transations concluded by the Flames since the 2007-08 trading deadline, and those completed by the Oilers. IIRC, the Flames and Oilers have completed the following major roster moves since the trade deadline:

Players Added - Calgary
Mike Cammalleri

Players Added - Edmonton

Lubomir Visnovsky

Players Subtracted - Calgary

Alex Tanguay
Rhett Warrener

Players Subtracted - Edmonton
Jarrett Stoll
Matt Greene

Comparison (Players Added)

Visnovsky >>> Cammalleri ... Advantage Edmonton

Comparison (Players Subtracted)
Tanguay, Warrener >>> Stoll, Greene ... Advantage Edmonton

With just a few hours to go until UFA season starts, I would have to give the advantage to the Oilers on the roster moves that have occurred since the trade deadline. Lowe has done more to improve the roster of the Oilers than Sutter has done for the Flames. In fact, I would argue that the Flames have a worse roster now than they did at the trade deadline.

Once UFA season starts, the Flames are set to lose Kristian Huselius, Stephane Yelle, Jim Vandermeer, and Curtis Joseph. The Oilers are set to lose Curtis Glencross, Marty Reasoner, and Geoff Sanderson.

Huselius >>> Glencross
Yelle >>> Reasoner
Vandermeer, Joseph >>> Sanderson

Once again, advantage Edmonton. The assets the Oilers are losing are less significant than the assets being lost by the Flames.

Furthermore, the Oilers emerged from the draft with a more significant prospect (Jordan Eberle) than the Flames best prospect (Greg Niemisz), despite the fact that the Oilers entered the draft five positions behind the Flames.

With the exception of the 2005-06 season, Sutter's teams have prevailed in the Battle of Alberta. However, if the regular season were to begin tomorrow, I take the view that the Oilers would be favoured to beat the Flames. After all, they finished only six points behind the Flames in the 2007-08 regular season with an injury-riddled roster full of rookies. The young core of the Oilers should be a little better, while the older players on the Flames - Iginla, Kiprusoff, Langkow, Aucoin, Conroy, Nolan, Primeau - have all played their best hockey. Kiprusoff's play notably tailed off last year, and we are likely to see that trend continue. Conroy and Nolan are mere shadows of their former selves, and had to agree to pay cuts in order to remain with the club (at least in Conroy's case; Nolan's pay cut has yet to be confirmed). Langkow is turning grey, and even Iginla will begin to lose a step one of these years. Maybe this will be the year that Iginla starts showing some wear and tear.

It will be interesting to see what Sutter does between now and the beginning of training camp to keep the Flames from sliding back any further.

saillias 06-30-2008 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyde (Post 14623347)
Is this your opinion or the opinion of the Calgary Herald? And if the Herald was it a reputable reporter or crazy Doh Boy who to put it nicely is full of it and for the most part speaks only to hear himself talk.

The Herald was just saying what everyone else in the city is thinking. Do we really think we are going to do any better in the standings this year? We were completely healthy last season and Iginla had the best season of his career, yet we couldn't top 7th... -Huselius, and swapping Tanguay for Cammalleri will change that?

Even I don't like Dowbiggin but he's not incapable of making good points sometimes. And I think the guy that wrote the article was Cruikshank (sp).

abracanada 06-30-2008 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Deer Rebel (Post 14631950)
No need to blow up the team, but the OS is correct in pointing out that the Flames are standing still at best. In fact, Sutter has the Flames going backwards.

Let's compare major roster transations concluded by the Flames since the 2007-08 trading deadline, and those completed by the Oilers. IIRC, the Flames and Oilers have completed the following major roster moves since the trade deadline:

Players Added - Calgary
Mike Cammalleri

Players Added - Edmonton

Lubomir Visnovsky

Players Subtracted - Calgary

Alex Tanguay
Rhett Warrener

Players Subtracted - Edmonton
Jarrett Stoll
Matt Greene

Comparison (Players Added)

Visnovsky >>> Cammalleri ... Advantage Edmonton

Comparison (Players Subtracted)
Tanguay, Warrener >>> Stoll, Greene ... Advantage Edmonton

With just a few hours to go until UFA season starts, I would have to give the advantage to the Oilers on the roster moves that have occurred since the trade deadline. Lowe has done more to improve the roster of the Oilers than Sutter has done for the Flames. In fact, I would argue that the Flames have a worse roster now than they did at the trade deadline.

Once UFA season starts, the Flames are set to lose Kristian Huselius, Stephane Yelle, Jim Vandermeer, and Curtis Joseph. The Oilers are set to lose Curtis Glencross, Marty Reasoner, and Geoff Sanderson.

Huselius >>> Glencross
Yelle >>> Reasoner
Vandermeer, Joseph >>> Sanderson

Once again, advantage Edmonton. The assets the Oilers are losing are less significant than the assets being lost by the Flames.

Furthermore, the Oilers emerged from the draft with a more significant prospect (Jordan Eberle) than the Flames best prospect (Greg Niemisz), despite the fact that the Oilers entered the draft five positions behind the Flames.

With the exception of the 2005-06 season, Sutter's teams have prevailed in the Battle of Alberta. However, if the regular season were to begin tomorrow, I take the view that the Oilers would be favoured to beat the Flames. After all, they finished only six points behind the Flames in the 2007-08 regular season with an injury-riddled roster full of rookies. The young core of the Oilers should be a little better, while the older players on the Flames - Iginla, Kiprusoff, Langkow, Aucoin, Conroy, Nolan, Primeau - have all played their best hockey. Kiprusoff's play notably tailed off last year, and we are likely to see that trend continue. Conroy and Nolan are mere shadows of their former selves, and had to agree to pay cuts in order to remain with the club (at least in Conroy's case; Nolan's pay cut has yet to be confirmed). Langkow is turning grey, and even Iginla will begin to lose a step one of these years. Maybe this will be the year that Iginla starts showing some wear and tear.

It will be interesting to see what Sutter does between now and the beginning of training camp to keep the Flames from sliding back any further.

Mod-edit: deleted. Iginla has played his best hockey? What a joke. Kipper is washed up? God, give me the strength to suffer fools. And Cammalleri is an ordinary guy, yet the Oilers pursued him hard. What could they have been thinking. You think the Flames performed as well as they could last year? Give your head a shake my friend. You are about to be introduced to some reality.

abracanada 06-30-2008 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saillias (Post 14633557)
The Herald was just saying what everyone else in the city is thinking. Do we really think we are going to do any better in the standings this year? We were completely healthy last season and Iginla had the best season of his career, yet we couldn't top 7th... -Huselius, and swapping Tanguay for Cammalleri will change that?

Even I don't like Dowbiggin but he's not incapable of making good points sometimes. And I think the guy that wrote the article was Cruikshank (sp).

Another doomsdayer who figures the Flames played their hearts out last year. What a joke. What if Kipper has a good year this time?

saillias 06-30-2008 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abracanada (Post 14633638)
Another doomsdayer who figures the Flames played their hearts out last year. What a joke. What if Kipper has a good year this time?

I was going to mention that but forgot about it... There's always something. So if Iginla scores 50, Langkow gets 30 and 65, Cammalleri matches Tanguays points, every other player combines to overtake Huselius' contribution, no one gets a significant injury, AND Kipper has an all-star season again... Then we could improve. Ok?

Where the hell do you get the idea I'm a doomsayer? I'm disappointed with the current direction of this team is all. Why do you (not just you specifically, many Flames fans) get so defensive at just the notion of criticism towards management?

frag2 06-30-2008 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abracanada (Post 14633600)
Mod-edit: deleted. Iginla has played his best hockey? What a joke. Kipper is washed up? God, give me the strength to suffer fools. And Cammalleri is an ordinary guy, yet the Oilers pursued him hard. What could they have been thinking. You think the Flames performed as well as they could last year? Give your head a shake my friend. You are about to be introduced to some reality.

We never pursued Cammalleri hard at all. It would have been nice to have him but at the same time, we were overloaded with forwards already (and now dman). It was the media and especially Eklund saying we wanted him. Now he is trying to play the Oilers + Spezza card that somebody made up :laugh:

Adding Cammalleri to the Oilers made no sense at all. Our forwards are small. He's even smaller :amazed:

abracanada 06-30-2008 08:11 PM

The Oilers picked up a few players and look the hell out, the hordes are about to scale the wall. LOL

Any spin you want to put on it bucky. The Oil wanted Cammalleri, if they got him, he would be well regarded. Since they didn't, ho hum, they werent really interested.

abracanada 06-30-2008 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saillias (Post 14634347)
I was going to mention that but forgot about it... There's always something. So if Iginla scores 50, Langkow gets 30 and 65, Cammalleri matches Tanguays points, every other player combines to overtake Huselius' contribution, no one gets a significant injury, AND Kipper has an all-star season again... Then we could improve. Ok?

Where the hell do you get the idea I'm a doomsayer? I'm disappointed with the current direction of this team is all. Why do you (not just you specifically, many Flames fans) get so defensive at just the notion of criticism towards management?

Nah, you are taking this one dimensional approach that the only way to win is if you are deep in talented offensive forwards. You don't have to have the top scoring team in the league to win. You need a defensive presence, something the Flames have not had since Sutter quit coaching. You are talking through your hat if you think the only possible way to improve is to be better offensively.

Lunatik* 06-30-2008 08:32 PM

Lunatik reports:

Shut the **** up and see how the dominoes fall during the summer. You don't know what a team will look like 3 months before opening night.

Offshore Oil 06-30-2008 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Deer Rebel (Post 14631950)
No need to blow up the team, but the OS is correct in pointing out that the Flames are standing still at best. In fact, Sutter has the Flames going backwards.

Let's compare major roster transations concluded by the Flames since the 2007-08 trading deadline, and those completed by the Oilers. IIRC, the Flames and Oilers have completed the following major roster moves since the trade deadline:

Players Added - Calgary
Mike Cammalleri

Players Added - Edmonton

Lubomir Visnovsky

Players Subtracted - Calgary

Alex Tanguay
Rhett Warrener

Players Subtracted - Edmonton
Jarrett Stoll
Matt Greene

Comparison (Players Added)

Visnovsky >>> Cammalleri ... Advantage Edmonton

Comparison (Players Subtracted)
Tanguay, Warrener >>> Stoll, Greene ... Advantage Edmonton

With just a few hours to go until UFA season starts, I would have to give the advantage to the Oilers on the roster moves that have occurred since the trade deadline. Lowe has done more to improve the roster of the Oilers than Sutter has done for the Flames. In fact, I would argue that the Flames have a worse roster now than they did at the trade deadline.

Once UFA season starts, the Flames are set to lose Kristian Huselius, Stephane Yelle, Jim Vandermeer, and Curtis Joseph. The Oilers are set to lose Curtis Glencross, Marty Reasoner, and Geoff Sanderson.

Huselius >>> Glencross
Yelle >>> Reasoner
Vandermeer, Joseph >>> Sanderson

Once again, advantage Edmonton. The assets the Oilers are losing are less significant than the assets being lost by the Flames.

Furthermore, the Oilers emerged from the draft with a more significant prospect (Jordan Eberle) than the Flames best prospect (Greg Niemisz), despite the fact that the Oilers entered the draft five positions behind the Flames.

With the exception of the 2005-06 season, Sutter's teams have prevailed in the Battle of Alberta. However, if the regular season were to begin tomorrow, I take the view that the Oilers would be favoured to beat the Flames. After all, they finished only six points behind the Flames in the 2007-08 regular season with an injury-riddled roster full of rookies. The young core of the Oilers should be a little better, while the older players on the Flames - Iginla, Kiprusoff, Langkow, Aucoin, Conroy, Nolan, Primeau - have all played their best hockey. Kiprusoff's play notably tailed off last year, and we are likely to see that trend continue. Conroy and Nolan are mere shadows of their former selves, and had to agree to pay cuts in order to remain with the club (at least in Conroy's case; Nolan's pay cut has yet to be confirmed). Langkow is turning grey, and even Iginla will begin to lose a step one of these years. Maybe this will be the year that Iginla starts showing some wear and tear.

It will be interesting to see what Sutter does between now and the beginning of training camp to keep the Flames from sliding back any further.

It was a tie, H2H last year (yeh, yeh, the Flames went on to feed the Sharks...).
Should be a good BOA this year but just 4 games? And, lately, Vancouver has been a more spirited / hated opponent for the Oil (and maybe Calg.).
Sutter's in a Burke-like position... he has had to shed assets and ride the expensive core players hard. Calgary will be there, as always, but there's just a sense of stagnation more than stability... we'll see.

saillias 06-30-2008 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abracanada (Post 14634561)
Nah, you are taking this one dimensional approach that the only way to win is if you are deep in talented offensive forwards. You don't have to have the top scoring team in the league to win. You need a defensive presence, something the Flames have not had since Sutter quit coaching. You are talking through your hat if you think the only possible way to improve is to be better offensively.

You keep on arguing with me about things I never even mentioned... Get on the same page.

abracanada 06-30-2008 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saillias (Post 14635420)
You keep on arguing with me about things I never even mentioned... Get on the same page.

What? You preach this stuff about the Flames are going to be identical to last year except they lost two major contributors. Well I beg to differ. They will be dumping two scorers who were unhappy. But they also gutted major parts of the defensive core of the team and are replacing it.
Yelle and Nilson have been defensive mainstays on this team forever. Warrener was one of the players that was key in developing the Flames defensive game. They are all gone. Sounds like change to me.

While it is true we don't know all that the change will include, I personally happen to think the Defence needed change. I can see that happening with this team.

The problems with the Flames runs deeper than scoring. If you believe losing forwards who didn't want to be here and were not committed to the team, you can go ahead and put all your hopes on acquiring scoring stars but I have seen changes like adding Tanguay and I saw how that turned out. Remember all the hooplah when he was acquired? How it was gonna make the Flames a top contender? That was change. That was "going for it" so to speak. How did that work out for you?

Give me a more disciplined, defensively smart team over what we have witnessed in the last two years, any day. I think it is time you "get on the same page".

Hyperkookeez* 07-01-2008 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abracanada (Post 14634501)
The Oilers picked up a few players and look the hell out, the hordes are about to scale the wall. LOL

Any spin you want to put on it bucky. The Oil wanted Cammalleri, if they got him, he would be well regarded. Since they didn't, ho hum, they werent really interested.

you gotta admit though the oilers team is no slouch this year. other than goaltending, their team is looking pretty good


but yea like lunatik says its 3 months from the beginning of the season. its barely july 1st ffs

Complacent Iggy 07-01-2008 07:50 AM

I just started this thread because I was blown away that nobody mentioned anything about us having the same team next season for the most part. The team may look good on paper because we're biased. So maybe it's chemistry, maybe it's complacency, being the reason for them being in the middle of the pack? If thats the case why not shake things up a little with the supporting cast?

I don't see the Oilers as a threat, their young stars like Cogs, Gagner and Neilson look good, but they're small and would wilt in the playoffs.

Stupefied 07-01-2008 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingkipper (Post 14640702)
I just started this thread because I was blown away that nobody mentioned anything about us having the same team next season for the most part. The team may look good on paper because we're biased. So maybe it's chemistry, maybe it's complacency, being the reason for them being in the middle of the pack? If thats the case why not shake things up a little with the supporting cast?

I don't see the Oilers as a threat, their young stars like Cogs, Gagner and Neilson look good, but they're small and would wilt in the playoffs.

Rhett, Nilson, Eriksson, Tanguay, Husilieus, Yelle and we still have no word of a signing that I'm aware of on Vandy, Nolan or Hale. Nystrom, Moss, Boyd should all see a lot more ice time, and Lombo should be getting more responsibilities on the second line. We could also see a few more guys come up from the farm, Gio is back, and we could see a Pardy or Pelech, and maybe a Prust on the fourth line. That is quite a shakeup of the supporting cast, dont you think?

As for the oilers, I dont see them winning a cup, but I still dont want them in the playoffs.

Snoil11 07-07-2008 04:33 PM

Quote:

Bertuzzi - Langkow - Iginla
Cammalleri - Lombardi - Boyd
Glencross - Conroy - Bourque
Nystrom - Prust - Moss
I copied this line-up from another thread.
In all honesty, does anyone still say, that "it's pretty much the same team for next season"?
Even if you replace Prust with Primeau, the Flames will have a new look up-front and I expect them to play a different (which most importantly means: more constant) game than last season.


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