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-   -   Flyers & Canes Proposal (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=53229)

MBJets 02-17-2004 10:19 PM

Flyers & Canes Proposal
 
Ron Francis & Jeff ONeill
for
Simon Gagne & 3rd(2004)

insan3 02-17-2004 10:23 PM

Stupid rumours
 
Hurricanes will never trade 2 great player for a young player who will never a superstar and a 3rd pick..

DaveG 02-17-2004 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MBJets
Ron Francis & Jeff ONeill
for
Simon Gagne & 3rd(2004)

I dobut O'Neill alone would go for that, and JR has already said that the only way Francis is getting traded is if he requests it.

Vagrant 02-17-2004 10:28 PM

That's a big no thank you. Simon Gagne isn't worth Jeff O'Neill straight up. Ron Francis is worth more to a team than a 3rd Round Pick. Couple two assets together that are individually worth more than the other two and you're seeing a bad trade proposal.

This is how I break it down:

Simon Gagne << Jeff O'Neill
3rd Round Pick <<< Ron Francis

While I know Francis is old, simply look at the return that Adam Oates brought in the Philidelphia trade. If JR has half a brain, he'll get a top tier prospect or at least a 2nd Round pick out of a team if he trades Francis.

While Gagne is younger, O'Neill is more established.

lace-em'-up 02-17-2004 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by insan3
Hurricanes will never trade 2 great player for a young player who will never a superstar and a 3rd pick..

i thought it was the other way around?
philly would never trade a young up and comer with a big offensive up-side and good defensive play, especially because there weak on wing.
for two older players nearing the end of there careers no matter how good they are.

maybe im wrong though. i wounder what philly fans would say?

MBJets 02-17-2004 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by insan3
Hurricanes will never trade 2 great player for a young player who will never a superstar and a 3rd pick..

Francis was a great player he may only have one more lick at the cup with the lockout coming up and the Canes would be lucky to put a player like Gagne in there lineup. ONeill is a good player but he may be a old guy before the canes are ready to put a contending team forward the dump in saalary would help the Canes keep the good young players like Stall, by letting them lock him up long term

GKJ 02-17-2004 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caniacforever
he'll get a top tier prospect or at least a 2nd Round pick out of a team if he trades Francis.

While Gagne is younger, O'Neill is more established.

Wrong and wrong.


Ron Francis is 40 years old, the Oates trade is a non-factor as to what old gray-haired former all stars are worth.


Gagne is having another off year and has more goals then O'Neill. Gagne is considered the best defensive winger on the team, and will take a lot more than O'Neill to pick up.

MBJets 02-17-2004 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
Wrong and wrong.


Ron Francis is 40 years old, the Oates trade is a non-factor as to what old gray-haired former all stars are worth.


Gagne is having another off year and has more goals then O'Neill. Gagne is considered the best defensive winger on the team, and will take a lot more than O'Neill to pick up.

I might agree with that but when they said that the Canes would not trade two great players away that is wrong Gagne will come around but O'Neill would help the Flyers alot right now for a playoff push and it not like O'Neill is that old he is only born in 1976 which make him 28 this year. I could see the pick being reduced but it would help both team accomblish there goal (Flyers winning the cup and Canes rebuilting and free up some cash to sign Stall long term.

Vagrant 02-17-2004 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
Ron Francis is 40 years old, the Oates trade is a non-factor as to what old gray-haired former all stars are worth.

Why exactly is that true? General Managers often judge the value of their players by the return made by other teams on similar players. That is how value for anything is based really. Supply and Demand. How much will you give for how much I have. To write off a trade as a non-factor when it actually went down is a bit ridiculous. Ron Francis is also better than Adam Oates was at the time. I'm not saying that trade should be the standard, but it certainly isn't excluded as a possiblity when discussing the value of veteran players. The jump from 3rd Round Pick, as equated above, and the return for Oates is quite a leap in value. I'd say that the value of Francis is between those two extremes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
Gagne is having another off year and has more goals then O'Neill. Gagne is considered the best defensive winger on the team, and will take a lot more than O'Neill to pick up.

Once again, Jeff O'Neill is a more established player than Simon Gagne. Gagne's value has taken quite the hit in the past two seasons with his inconsistant play. O'Neill has been more consistant over a longer period of time than Gagne. Only recently has he had a little trouble, if you consider 30 points trouble, producing the regular 60's in points that we've grown to expect from him. To place his value at the lowest production level of his career is a mistake. Not to mention the fact that Philidelphia wouldn't be the only team in contention for his services and that would inflate his value even more.

SJSharksFan 02-17-2004 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lace-em'-up
i thought it was the other way around?
philly would never trade a young up and comer with a big offensive up-side and good defensive play, especially because there weak on wing.
for two older players nearing the end of there careers no matter how good they are.

maybe im wrong though. i wounder what philly fans would say?

Huh? Francis is nearing the end of his career, but O'Niell is only 27 years old.

stanley 02-17-2004 11:31 PM

Gagne has been great over the last month, and though O'Neill has had a miserable year, he's still a very good player. I think a Gagne-O'Neill trade is generally even. You guys need to be a little more objective.

I think Francis would accept a trade to a contender, but there has to be a need for it to happen to Philadelphia. Namely, it has to become clear that Roenick or Primeau aren't coming back. If it gets near the deadline and Roenick doesn't seem likely to return (Primeau will most likely be back well before then), we all know Clarke will do something. I don't know that he would try and pry Francis (Rutherford and Clarke obviously have a good relationship), but he'll certainly do something (you already wrote that, Stan).

Winston Wolf 02-17-2004 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caniacforever
Why exactly is that true? General Managers often judge the value of their players by the return made by other teams on similar players. That is how value for anything is based really. Supply and Demand. How much will you give for how much I have. To write off a trade as a non-factor when it actually went down is a bit ridiculous. Ron Francis is also better than Adam Oates was at the time. I'm not saying that trade should be the standard, but it certainly isn't excluded as a possiblity when discussing the value of veteran players. The jump from 3rd Round Pick, as equated above, and the return for Oates is quite a leap in value. I'd say that the value of Francis is between those two extremes.

Nope, Oates was leading the league in assists, I believe, and was also in the top 5 in the point leaders when we acquired him. Francis has 24 points in 58 games this year, it's not even close to being the same situation.

Factor in that EVERYONE has admitted that Oates was highly overpaid for, not the norm, and that Francis is not as good as Oates was when we acquired him and you'll realize that you're not going to get a whole lot in return for Francis.

GKJ 02-18-2004 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MBJets
I might agree with that but when they said that the Canes would not trade two great players away that is wrong Gagne will come around but O'Neill would help the Flyers alot right now for a playoff push and it not like O'Neill is that old he is only born in 1976 which make him 28 this year. I could see the pick being reduced but it would help both team accomblish there goal (Flyers winning the cup and Canes rebuilting and free up some cash to sign Stall long term.

Gagne is 24, right now the way he is playing I will take Gagne now over O'Neill who might not score 20 goals this season. O'Neill only has about 85 more carreer goals than Gagne, Gagne has more points, he's better defensively. And you want to dump O'Neill so Eric Staal can be signed long term? What? Why don't you try and get someone to take Bret Hedican and Rod Brind'Amour first? But don't think you're going to get Gagne for O'Neill when Gagne is a better player right now. What does O'Neill have on Gagne? O'Neill is a former 40 goal scorer (after humble beginnings) and a trip to the finals on an overacheiving team. No thank you.

bandwagon 02-18-2004 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MBJets
Ron Francis & Jeff ONeill
for
Simon Gagne & 3rd(2004)

As a Canuck fan, I'm relatively unbiased here.

I'd have to say that this deal makes no sense for either team. The Flyers appear to be gearing up for a Cup run, but at the same time, with the trade of Williams, Gagne is even less likely to get moved. I can't see the Flyers trading away Gagne AND Williams, even if it does put them over the top. Gagne is a key part of their team now and in the future.

And I believe that the 'Canes should not be moving O'Neill. He's their best player. Yes, he's having an off-season, but every player hits rough patches in their career. To trade him because he's having a poor season is ridiculous. He's such a big part of their team now and in the future, and besides, plenty of other 'Canes are having weak seasons. Perhaps his poor season is more of a result of his teammates' offensive struggles then him. I wouldn't know, as I am not a 'Canes fan who watches many games. And I can't see him getting huge bucks with the whole CBA confusion. I believe that GMs and owners will again by holding their checkbooks a bit more tightly and not so eagerly paying their stars big bucks.

Francis could be moved, but I see him fetching more than a third. Probably a second, maybe with a prospect on top. The Adam Oates argument does not apply here - Francis is older than Oates was, has had a weak season and the Flyers overpaid for Oates anyways.

Vagrant 02-18-2004 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyers guy
Nope, Oates was leading the league in assists, I believe, and was also in the top 5 in the point leaders when we acquired him. Francis has 24 points in 58 games this year, it's not even close to being the same situation.

Factor in that EVERYONE has admitted that Oates was highly overpaid for, not the norm, and that Francis is not as good as Oates was when we acquired him and you'll realize that you're not going to get a whole lot in return for Francis.

As a Flyer fan with Keith Primeau, the all star, you should be the first to recognize that it's not all about point production when talking about the value of a player. If this were true, what would Keith Primeau be worth to a person who hadn't seen him play this season.

Ron Francis is probably twice as good on defense as Oates was at the time, and he's a far better leader in a sense that he's never been a distraction at any point in his career and even managed to tame the likes of Jaromir Jagr, a feat that hasn't been accomplished since. In my book, there are only four other players in the NHL right now that command the respect that Francis does. Steve Yzerman, Scott Stevens, Mark Messier, and Mario Lemiuex.

Even as recent as two years ago, Francis has been a name that was associated with the Selke trophy for the league's top defensive forward. That is quite the accomplishment for a player as up there in age as Francis is. He plays the most cerebral game in the league almost, and that isn't something that leaves you in a hurry.

As for the reason behind his point production, he hasn't had productive linemates at any point during this entire season. He can't do it all by himself. The style of game that Francis plays is very dependant upon being placed with a finisher in order for him to rack up the points. His lifeless numbers are represenative of his lifeless linemates. He's one of the best setup men in the game, but when you don't have a finisher that is clicking it doesn't matter.

blah 02-18-2004 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caniacforever
Ron Francis is also better than Adam Oates was at the time.

lol, I can't believe you said that. Hopefully, we don't get 40 posts in this thread about your comment like we did in that other thread, when somebody said Fedorov wasn't a good defensive forward.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Caniacforever
Once again, Jeff O'Neill is a more established player than Simon Gagne. Gagne's value has taken quite the hit in the past two seasons with his inconsistant play. O'Neill has been more consistant over a longer period of time than Gagne. Only recently has he had a little trouble, if you consider 30 points trouble, producing the regular 60's in points that we've grown to expect from him. To place his value at the lowest production level of his career is a mistake. Not to mention the fact that Philidelphia wouldn't be the only team in contention for his services and that would inflate his value even more.

What does being established have to do with anything?

I don't think Gagne's value has taken a big hit all. His offense may have been inconsistant b/c of injury, but he's always played an excellent two-way game. Also, he's started to come around of late and he's scoring goals again. I don't know why people keep thinking he's available. He's the type of wing the Flyers covet.

Primeau will be back soon, hopefully, so you all may want to hold your proposals until a couple games after he gets back. Then we'll be able to see if they can get by w/o Roenick.

Vagrant 02-18-2004 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blah
lol, I can't believe you said that. Hopefully, we don't get 40 posts in this thread about your comment like we did in that other thread, when somebody said Fedorov wasn't a good defensive forward.

I honestly don't understand how that comment can be percieved as being so far fetched. Sergei Federov is a fantastic defensive forward, which everybody knows. Ron Francis has been playing in hockey siberia for the past few years, and most of the people posting professional opinions about him haven't seen him play 5 games in the past two years. They couldn't possibly unless they have center ice and an immense desire to watch lackluster hockey. 'Canes hockey gets no national recognition, as well it shouldn't until they play like an NHL level club.

Francis has been a step above Oates his entire career. I don't see how it should be much differant at this advanced age. Unless you're willing to dispute solid, hard facts about the careers of both of these players, then I don't see the point of even getting into an argument about it. Francis has hovered around Selke candidate for the majority of his career with the exception of the past two seasons in which the whole team has made it virtually impossible to be in the possitives unless you're only logging ten minutes a night. The leadership, defensive play, and fantastic attitude of Francis is what makes him more valuable than Oates. Francis gets ten times more respect from the opposition as Adam Oates does. It's not a secret, ask anybody which player they'd rather have on their team.

Perhaps i'm being a homer. :dunno:

Winston Wolf 02-18-2004 12:33 AM

Don't get me wrong, I really like Francis. It's just that production does tie into trade value, which is why Primeau is worth much more to the Flyers than he is to anyone else. If the Flyers traded him he probably wouldn't fetch a ton, but he'd be irreplaceable to the team.

Sure Francis is a great guy and has had a great career, but right now his trade value doesn't come close to what Oates' value was in 01-02, simply because one was in the top 5 in points, while the other one has about 200 players in front of him. Maybe you could talk about linemates and situations if the production was somewhat close, but it's really so far off that it isn't even a viable argument.

Personally, I see Francis going for a 2nd round pick, give or take a little.

blah 02-18-2004 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caniacforever
Perhaps i'm being a homer. :dunno:

Career vs career I'd take Francis, but there's no way Francis is as good now as Oates was when the Flyers dealt for him.

I like Francis. I just can't see him agreeing to be dealt. He has his Cups already and has no incentive to change teams.

Winston Wolf 02-18-2004 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caniacforever
Francis has been a step above Oates his entire career. I don't see how it should be much differant at this advanced age. Unless you're willing to dispute solid, hard facts about the careers of both of these players, then I don't see the point of even getting into an argument about it. Francis has hovered around Selke candidate for the majority of his career with the exception of the past two seasons in which the whole team has made it virtually impossible to be in the possitives unless you're only logging ten minutes a night.

I don't see how it's so cut and dry. Oates has a higher PPG average and has been the best playmaker, sans Wayne Gretzky, of this generation. Yet you talk like Francis is on another level, when arguments can be made that either player was the better one over their careers. Personally, I also like Francis more, but by a small margin. I think you're being too subjective, or don't know enough about Oates to fairly compare him to Francis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caniacforever
The leadership, defensive play, and fantastic attitude of Francis is what makes him more valuable than Oates. Francis gets ten times more respect from the opposition as Adam Oates does. It's not a secret, ask anybody which player they'd rather have on their team.

These statements really bother me and are quite unfair to Oates. How do you know what the league's opinions on Oates and Francis is? How do you know that Francis is a better leader and has a better attitude than Oates? Fact is, you don't. Those are all of your unfounded opinions that you are trying to make fact. I'm sure players have said positive things about Francis before, but I've also never heard anything negative about Oates, either. You're really just inferring that Francis is the better team player with only one side of the story.

Vagrant 02-18-2004 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyers guy
These statements really bother me and are quite unfair to Oates. How do you know what the league's opinions on Oates and Francis is? How do you know that Francis is a better leader and has a better attitude than Oates? Fact is, you don't. Those are all of your unfounded opinions that you are trying to make fact. I'm sure players have said positive things about Francis before, but I've also never heard anything negative about Oates, either. You're really just inferring that Francis is the better team player with only one side of the story.

You're right, i'm not able to speak from a perspective of every player in the league. However, I do have a set of eyes in which i've seen both Adam Oates and Ron Francis play hockey. It's almost considered a sin to check Ron Francis unless you're of a similar stature. He's almost like a living legend out there. He gets the same respect as far as checking goes as the likes of Lemiuex and Gretzky did in the respective twilight of their own careers. Oates, on the other hand, i've seen abused like every other forward in the league for stretches. Including the NHL finals with the Ducks in which he was manhandled the entire series. Go back and check the tape, in the 2001 Stanley Cup Finals, players were very hesitant to put a check on Francis. It's a matter of respect to not finish checks on players that have done so much for the game and I've simply not seen that from players towards Adam Oates. To me, that would suggest that Ron Francis is more highly respected.

As far as how do I know he's a better leader, well, when was the last time you saw Adam Oates lead a group of rag tag individuals into a Stanley Cup Final in the late stages of his career? How many guys have neutralized Jaromir Jagr's dynamic personality and helped make him into the dynamic player he was during his days as a Penguin. I'm sure there are some Pens fans that are willing to back me up on the fact that Francis was a stabilizer for Jagr.

While I agree that Oates isn't exactly Marchment when it comes to leaguewide respect, it's not entirely subjective when you've seen the actual results with your own eyes.

fuhr 02-18-2004 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caniacforever
As far as how do I know he's a better leader, well, when was the last time you saw Adam Oates lead a group of rag tag individuals into a Stanley Cup Final in the late stages of his career? How many guys have neutralized Jaromir Jagr's dynamic personality and helped make him into the dynamic player he was during his days as a Penguin. I'm sure there are some Pens fans that are willing to back me up on the fact that Francis was a stabilizer for Jagr.

I don't mean to chime in here but last time i checked Oates helped lead a team to the finals last year!! Francis was not the main factor that the Canes got to the finals nor was Oates for the Ducks. That being said,they both helped lead their teams to the finals.

The biggest reason the Canes and Ducks made the finals was because of their goaltending and that god awful defensive system they both played.

Vagrant 02-18-2004 02:39 AM

It would just be easier to make a list of things that Francis did in his Stanley Cup run that Oates didn't.

1. Captained the team.
2. Lead the team in Regular Season Points.
3. Lead the team in playoff points.
4. Scored several game winning goals in the playoffs.
5. Was the undisputed leader by example.
6. Played with the team prior to that year.

In conclusion, the Anaheim team that went to the Finals was the team of Paul Kariya. The Carolina team that went to the finals was the team of Ron Francis. Beyond a shadow of a doubt. It's much easier to be a contributer than the backbone of a team.

bleedgreen 02-18-2004 04:34 AM

in the end, i think gagne for oneill isnt far off for value on the trade market - but neither replaces what they mean to their respective organizations. philly needs players like gagne to be in the next wave when their more established players retire. carolina still needs oneill because he is young enough to be around when the rebuild is done-and he is the best goal scorer they possess.
idont mean to offend my carolina brethren when i say this, but francis may go for free when its all said or done. sure, maybe they could steal a prospect or a pick, but in the end he will go where he approves to go-and the canes will take back whatever that team offers...out of respect. francis is the one ufa that i dont care what they get back for him as long as its where he wants to play. he's earned it - and he has paid his dues for this franchise, they dont need anything back for him.

blah 02-18-2004 04:43 AM

He's an UFA? Nice. Has he said he's going to retire after this season?


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