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-   -   Couple proposals (involving NYR, VAN, PHI, CAR, (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=53551)

bandwagon 02-18-2004 11:23 PM

Couple proposals
 
To New York (R): Kirill Koltsov (D), 2004 first round pick, 2005 third round pick
To Vancouver: Alexei Kovalev (RW), conditional draft pick (if Kovy doesn't re-sign with us)


The Canucks get the right winger and secondary scoring threat they need, Rangers shell salary and add (potentially) a couple of good prospects. I don't know for sure whether Slats would do this, but in my defense, Bob McKenzie speculated in his column that Kovalev could potentially be available at the deadline. But the Rangers might be able to get better offers.

To Philadelphia: Ron Francis (C)
To Carolina: Jim Vandermeer (D), 2004 second round pick


It's been speculated that the Rangers might be in the hunt for a center with both Roenick and Primeau out. And Francis would probably love to win another Cup before he hangs 'em up. The 'Canes have been rumored to be interested in shelling salary, so a deal like this makes sense. And if they move guys like Wesley, Hill and Boughner, a young guy like Vandermeer could be a nice addition.

To Toronto: Arturs Irbe (G), 1/2 salary paid next year
To Carolina: 5th round pick


The Leafs get some goalie insurance, as it has been speculated that they might want some. The 'Canes trim payroll and get a mid round pick. If not the Leafs, then perhaps the Rangers or Devils would be interested. Just a suggestion. I realize that Irbe has little value and has fallen out of favor, but he was awesome for the 'Canes in their Cup run. He could be worth the risk if he gets hot.

To New Jersey: Alexei Zhamnov (C)
To Chicago: Tuomas Pihlman (LW), 2nd round pick


The Devils are reportedly one of the interested parties in getting Zhamnov, and considering that scoring has been a problem in the past, I can see why they might be interested. The 'Hawks no doubt want to get youngsters as they rebuild their team. Pihlman, IMO, would be a nice fit alongside fellow Finn Tuomo Ruutu. Sounds like they both play physical and are capable offensively.

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions? Am I completely off-base?

EDIT: Bolded trade proposals to make easier to read.

Peter Griffin 02-18-2004 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandwagon
To New York (R): Kirill Koltsov (D), 2004 first round pick, 2005 third round pick
To Vancouver: Alexei Kovalev (RW), conditional draft pick (if Kovy doesn't re-sign with us)

The Canucks get the right winger and secondary scoring threat they need, Rangers shell salary and add (potentially) a couple of good prospects. I don't know for sure whether Slats would do this, but in my defense, Bob McKenzie speculated in his column that Kovalev could potentially be available at the deadline. But the Rangers might be able to get better offers.

Waaaaay too much going to New York IMO. Bondra, a player of similar trade value, went for a good prospect and a 2nd round pick. Koltsov, a 1st and a 3rd is too much for Kovalev and a conditional pick, unless it's a 1st rounder. :) Umberger and a 2nd is the most I'd offer for Kovalev, considering he'd be a two month rental.

The other deals look pretty solid IMO.

not quite yoda 02-18-2004 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandwagon
To New York (R): Kirill Koltsov (D), 2004 first round pick, 2005 third round pick
To Vancouver: Alexei Kovalev (RW), conditional draft pick (if Kovy doesn't re-sign with us)


The Canucks get the right winger and secondary scoring threat they need, Rangers shell salary and add (potentially) a couple of good prospects. I don't know for sure whether Slats would do this, but in my defense, Bob McKenzie speculated in his column that Kovalev could potentially be available at the deadline. But the Rangers might be able to get better offers.

To Philadelphia: Ron Francis (C)
To Carolina: Jim Vandermeer (D), 2004 second round pick


It's been speculated that the Rangers might be in the hunt for a center with both Roenick and Primeau out. And Francis would probably love to win another Cup before he hangs 'em up. The 'Canes have been rumored to be interested in shelling salary, so a deal like this makes sense. And if they move guys like Wesley, Hill and Boughner, a young guy like Vandermeer could be a nice addition.

To Toronto: Arturs Irbe (G), 1/2 salary paid next year
To Carolina: 5th round pick


The Leafs get some goalie insurance, as it has been speculated that they might want some. The 'Canes trim payroll and get a mid round pick. If not the Leafs, then perhaps the Rangers or Devils would be interested. Just a suggestion. I realize that Irbe has little value and has fallen out of favor, but he was awesome for the 'Canes in their Cup run. He could be worth the risk if he gets hot.

To New Jersey: Alexei Zhamnov (C)
To Chicago: Tuomas Pihlman (LW), 2nd round pick


The Devils are reportedly one of the interested parties in getting Zhamnov, and considering that scoring has been a problem in the past, I can see why they might be interested. The 'Hawks no doubt want to get youngsters as they rebuild their team. Pihlman, IMO, would be a nice fit alongside fellow Finn Tuomo Ruutu. Sounds like they both play physical and are capable offensively.

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions? Am I completely off-base?

EDIT: Bolded trade proposals to make easier to read.

1. That's alot to pay for Kovalev.
2. Irbe is not a soultion to Toronto's problem.
3. Francis is done; Vandermmer has a nice future.
4.That may be an ok deal.

Vagrant 02-18-2004 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandwagon
To Philadelphia: Ron Francis (C)
To Carolina: Jim Vandermeer (D), 2004 second round pick

This deal could be a possible deal. However, Philly has already traded defensemen off the roster with Weinrich, and Woywitka. That leaves Seidenberg, Vandermeer, and Pitkanen on the blueline from a youth standpoint. Philly has been trading depth off the blueline for quite a while now, and it's going to catch up to them if they don't stop. I'm pretty sure Clarke is aware of that fact and i'm doubting you'll see any more of the young defenseman moved.

As far as actual value, it's perfect. As far as probability, i'd say it's not quite as likely to happen from a Philly perspective.

Also, we have to take into account that Ron Francis might be calling it quits. He has already expressed interest in retiring as a WhalerCane. He plans to work in the front office upon his retirement and he lives here year round. I'm not exactly sure as to how ready he'd be to leave town at this point even if it was only for a brief stint. I think he'd rather keep his legacy in tact as a 'Cane than to leave town and try for a cup one last time. He already has two. Not to mention the fact that JR has already said that Francis would have to come to him in order to be traded and I simply don't see Ron doing that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandwagon
To Toronto: Arturs Irbe (G), 1/2 salary paid next year
To Carolina: 5th round pick

This one could work out quite well. Irbe isn't going to get much of a chance in Carolina to do anything before his career is over. We're about to drop into rebuild mode and Toronto could use the service of a player like Arturs. Carolina has called him up to shake the rust off, probably at the request of a few GM's, and we'll judge where we're at from there. Despite what Rutherford is saying, i'm almost 100% sure this is a showcase callup. Irbe and Rutherford have far too much bad blood between them for Rutherford to simply get a case of guilty conscience.

I'd do it, for sure. Half of his salary is better than his whole salary, and a 5th round pick is just icing on the cake. Done deal as far as i'm concerned.

monster_bertuzzi 02-18-2004 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandwagon
To New York (R): Kirill Koltsov (D), 2004 first round pick, 2005 third round pick
To Vancouver: Alexei Kovalev (RW), conditional draft pick (if Kovy doesn't re-sign with us)

Slats better be willing to take on some of Kovalev's salary if that were the case, even then I wouldn't give up the 2004 1st rounder. What kind of moron would Burke look like going into the draft without a 1st or a 2nd rounder?

bandwagon 02-18-2004 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Waaaaay too much going to New York IMO. Bondra, a player of similar trade value, went for a good prospect and a 2nd round pick. Koltsov, a 1st and a 3rd is too much for Kovalev and a conditional pick, unless it's a 1st rounder. :) Umberger and a 2nd is the most I'd offer for Kovalev, considering he'd be a two month rental.

The other deals look pretty solid IMO.

Good point about Bondra, but are they really that similar? Kovalev is at least 5 years younger (not sure of his exact age) and has more hockey left than Peter Bondra. He also is slightly better at this point, but that's my opinion and I wouldn't expect everyone to agree.

They are similar with the UFA status, but there are a few factors to consider. I think that around the trade deadline, teams tend to overpay for the players that they want to get. For example, when the Flyers traded for Oates. Or when the Blues got Tkachuk.

Also, getting a dynamic offensive force like Kovalev could ideally push us over the top and help us win a Cup. Are you truly unwilling to overpay to get such an exceptional talent as Kovalev who could help us get the big silver mug? And who's to say if we do win it all, that Kovy wouldn't want to potentially re-sign here? What hockey player doesn't want to win?

The conditional pick is also a factor as it basically acts as a second compensatory pick if Kovalev were to leave. Trading Koltsov and two picks for Kovalev (and keeping him for a couple weeks or whatever) and two picks isn't all that bad. Risk is a name of the game, and sometimes you get burned. But other times, a gamble pays off and you look like a genius.

I don't think that Umberger and a 2nd would get Kovalev, and I really think that Kovalev would significantly upgrade this team.

bandwagon 02-18-2004 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
Slats better be willing to take on some of Kovalev's salary if that were the case, even then I wouldn't give up the 2004 1st rounder. What kind of moron would Burke look like going into the draft without a 1st or a 2nd rounder?

What kind of a moron would Burke look like if he again stands pat at the trade deadline and the Canucks are once again golfing by May?

Peter Griffin 02-18-2004 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandwagon
Good point about Bondra, but are they really that similar? Kovalev is at least 5 years younger (not sure of his exact age) and has more hockey left than Peter Bondra. He also is slightly better at this point, but that's my opinion and I wouldn't expect everyone to agree.

Age and remaining shelf life is irrelevant in there cases. Both are UFA's and will simply be UFA rentals(Bondra has an option, but it's Ottawa's choice if they want to exercise it). I'd argue that Bondra has been as good, if not better then Kovalev this season.

Quote:

They are similar with the UFA status, but there are a few factors to consider. I think that around the trade deadline, teams tend to overpay for the players that they want to get. For example, when the Flyers traded for Oates. Or when the Blues got Tkachuk.

Also, getting a dynamic offensive force like Kovalev could ideally push us over the top and help us win a Cup. Are you truly unwilling to overpay to get such an exceptional talent as Kovalev who could help us get the big silver mug? And who's to say if we do win it all, that Kovy wouldn't want to potentially re-sign here? What hockey player doesn't want to win?
All good points, but Burke isn't the type of guy to overpay, for anyone. There may be a team willing to break the back for Kovalev(personally I don't see it happneing), but that team won't be Vancouver. Like I mentioned earlier, Bondra went for a decent to good prospect and a 2nd rounder, I doubt anyteam offers much more then that.

Quote:

The conditional pick is also a factor as it basically acts as a second compensatory pick if Kovalev were to leave. Trading Koltsov and two picks for Kovalev (and keeping him for a couple weeks or whatever) and two picks isn't all that bad. Risk is a name of the game, and sometimes you get burned. But other times, a gamble pays off and you look like a genius.
Like I said, it all depends on the what the conditional pick is. Good point on the compensatory pick aspect though, it could be as high as a mid 2nd rounder. That in mind I would probably up my offer to....

Quote:

I don't think that Umberger and a 2nd would get Kovalev, and I really think that Kovalev would significantly upgrade this team.
Umberger and a 1st in '05 for Kovalev and a conditional pick(3rd round pick if Kovalev is not re-signed). The Rangers are ineligible for UFA compensation anyway(their payroll is too high), so losing Kovalev's compensatory pick doesn't hurt them. The 1st rounder would have to be in the '05 as the Canucks don't have a 2nd this season.

bandwagon 02-18-2004 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caniacforever
This deal could be a possible deal. However, Philly has already traded defensemen off the roster with Weinrich, and Woywitka. That leaves Seidenberg, Vandermeer, and Pitkanen on the blueline from a youth standpoint. Philly has been trading depth off the blueline for quite a while now, and it's going to catch up to them if they don't stop. I'm pretty sure Clarke is aware of that fact and i'm doubting you'll see any more of the young defenseman moved.

As far as actual value, it's perfect. As far as probability, i'd say it's not quite as likely to happen from a Philly perspective.

Also, we have to take into account that Ron Francis might be calling it quits. He has already expressed interest in retiring as a WhalerCane. He plans to work in the front office upon his retirement and he lives here year round. I'm not exactly sure as to how ready he'd be to leave town at this point even if it was only for a brief stint. I think he'd rather keep his legacy in tact as a 'Cane than to leave town and try for a cup one last time. He already has two. Not to mention the fact that JR has already said that Francis would have to come to him in order to be traded and I simply don't see Ron doing that.

Good points about the Flyers moving young defensemen, and also about Francis wanting to retire a Hurricane. I guess we'll just have to see what happens. Does Francis have a no trade clause, or is Rutherford just treating good old Ronny with respect?

Quote:

This one could work out quite well. Irbe isn't going to get much of a chance in Carolina to do anything before his career is over. We're about to drop into rebuild mode and Toronto could use the service of a player like Arturs. Carolina has called him up to shake the rust off, probably at the request of a few GM's, and we'll judge where we're at from there. Despite what Rutherford is saying, i'm almost 100% sure this is a showcase callup. Irbe and Rutherford have far too much bad blood between them for Rutherford to simply get a case of guilty conscience.

I'd do it, for sure. Half of his salary is better than his whole salary, and a 5th round pick is just icing on the cake. Done deal as far as i'm concerned.
I somehow didn't think that a Carolina fan would have any problems with it... :p

It's the Leafs fans who might not like it as it could potentially give them a glut in goal. But I personally don't consider Kidd to be a very reliable backup, and would rather have someone like Irbe as backup (assuming of course a large portion of Irbe's salary is paid). I don't know for sure, but if Kidd was a free agent this offseason, the Leafs could cut him loose and go with Belfour and Irbe as their goalie tandem. Problem solved.

monster_bertuzzi 02-18-2004 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandwagon
What hockey player doesn't want to win?

Vincent Damphousse

Quote:

What kind of a moron would Burke look like if he again stands pat at the trade deadline and the Canucks are once again golfing by May?
^A major idiot. However, this is Brian Burke we're talking about. I dont expect him to over pay for a player, it's as simple as that.

bandwagon 02-19-2004 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Age and remaining shelf life is irrelevant in there cases. Both are UFA's and will simply be UFA rentals(Bondra has an option, but it's Ottawa's choice if they want to exercise it). I'd argue that Bondra has been as good, if not better then Kovalev this season.

How is age and "shelf life" irrelevant? I'd consider that to be very relevant, whether a guy is a rental or not. Older means more prone to injury and fatigue, which is definitely a factor in playoff effectiveness. And what if we do somehow re-sign Kovalev? Then age and shelf life is definitely relevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
All good points, but Burke isn't the type of guy to overpay, for anyone.

Oh man, I gotta disagree with this one. Burke has overpayed a number of times. Didn't he trade a third round pick for May? That's overpayment considering that May isn't all that great. Hedberg for a second round pick is probably an overpayment considering that LA got Cechmanek (a better goalie) for a second round pick. The Sedins we even paid a lot for, I believe. Didn't we end up giving up our first in 2000, McCabe, a couple thirds and stuff just to get one twin? I'm no expert and it was a very complicated process, but I think the case could be made that we overpaid for them. That's not a knock against them - they're great players - but I think we gave up a lot for them. And that's just off the top of my head.

Quote:

There may be a team willing to break the back for Kovalev(personally I don't see it happneing), but that team won't be Vancouver. Like I mentioned earlier, Bondra went for a decent to good prospect and a 2nd rounder, I doubt anyteam offers much more then that.
But like I said, I consider Kovalev to be a better player than Bondra. Also, the price for him might be driven up as we get closer to the deadline. So I can definitely see the price for Kovalev going up.

bandwagon 02-19-2004 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
Vincent Damphousse


^A major idiot. However, this is Brian Burke we're talking about. I dont expect him to over pay for a player, it's as simple as that.

But Brian Burke has overpaid for players before, so I don't think it's absurd to think that he absolutely would not give up Koltsov and 1st and 3rd round picks for Kovalev. And if we win the Cup, Brian Burke looks like a genius.

Peter Griffin 02-19-2004 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandwagon
How is age and "shelf life" irrelevant? I'd consider that to be very relevant, whether a guy is a rental or not. Older means more prone to injury and fatigue, which is definitely a factor in playoff effectiveness. And what if we do somehow re-sign Kovalev? Then age and shelf life is definitely relevant.

Bondra is one of the best conditioned players in the league, has been for a while. Sure he's older, but he and Kovalev are UFA's, they'd be with their teams for a couple months at most(maybe moreso in Bondra's case because of the team option). When trading for rental players, their age and remaining time in the NHL rarely is a factor. Current producton is, as well as salary, but you don't usually trade for a player who has a few months left on his contract and say "hey, player a is a few years younger then player b, but both are producing similar numbers at this time in their careers. I'm going to pay significantly more to get player a because if I re-sign him, which is a low possibility, he'll be younger, even though their production is very close". It just doesn't work that way in most UFA cases, espcially if you're talking about the Canucks. UFA values are determined mainly by salary and current production.

Quote:

Oh man, I gotta disagree with this one. Burke has overpayed a number of times. Didn't he trade a third round pick for May? That's overpayment considering that May isn't all that great. Hedberg for a second round pick is probably an overpayment considering that LA got Cechmanek (a better goalie) for a second round pick. The Sedins we even paid a lot for, I believe. Didn't we end up giving up our first in 2000, McCabe, a couple thirds and stuff just to get one twin? I'm no expert and it was a very complicated process, but I think the case could be made that we overpaid for them. That's not a knock against them - they're great players - but I think we gave up a lot for them. And that's just off the top of my head.
I meant to say that Burke doesn't overpay for UFA rentals. Burke didn't really overpay for Brad May, 4th round pick was probably his value at the time and there were other teams interested. If he offered a 2nd, that would be overpayment, but a 3rd, I'm not so sure. I guess I just don't see Burke trading a top prospect, 1st round pick and a 3rd for a couple months of Kovalev. Just isn't his style, espcially when he says he won't mortgage the future for a rental player.


Quote:

But like I said, I consider Kovalev to be a better player than Bondra. Also, the price for him might be driven up as we get closer to the deadline. So I can definitely see the price for Kovalev going up.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see.


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