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-   -   O/T: Will Johan Santana catch a break this season? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=538417)

BwayBshirt 07-22-2008 09:14 PM

O/T: Will Johan Santana catch a break this season?
 
I'm watching this disgusting 9th inning vs. the phillies and i'm thinking to myself "what a waste of an outing".

i know he hasn't been great this season but he still has been better than good IMO and it always seems something bad is happening in his starts whether it's him or the team around him or both.

danno2530 07-22-2008 09:34 PM

That was actually pretty amusing to watch, but I'm a Yankees fan...

On a serious note...why did the Mets take Santana out anyway? He threw 105 pitches..big deal. They got him for games like this. If he hit some trouble, then take him out, but especially with Wagner unavailable, let him start the inning. That was a very strange decision.

NYReign 07-22-2008 09:42 PM

Who pitched in the ninth? I just saw the carnage afterwards, rough nights for Mets fans... on the plus side, Yanks are up to 10 games over .500 :)

danno2530 07-22-2008 09:43 PM

Duaner Sanchez started the 9th, gave up 3 straight hits, Joe Smith relieved him and should have got an out but Reyes inexplicably decided to go for a tough play on a speedy Shane Victorino at 2nd, Feleciano relieved him and gave up hits to Taguchi and Rollins and then Heilman finished the inning.

NYReign 07-22-2008 09:45 PM

I guess Wagner is the best of their options after all...still not saying much. Ah this wasn't such a big game lol you can afford to blow a lead for your ace against your rival who you're tied for first with... no big deal

The Thomas J.* 07-22-2008 09:56 PM

I just can't get to optomistic about this Met team doing anything when I see 9th inninngs like this.

2Leetch_94 07-22-2008 10:12 PM

Listening to WFAN should be amusing tomorrow.

Plato 07-22-2008 10:42 PM

Sorry to hijack but on a baseball related note is anybody else pulling for Mussina to get his first 20 win season of his career? Great player whose done more than enough to earn it if you ask me especially considering most doubted whether he would even hold a spot in the rotation by this time in the season.

McRanger23 07-22-2008 10:47 PM

Im a die hard Met fan so I was so angry:rant::rant::rant: after that disgusting ninth inning I went on a thirty minute walk around my neihborhood to clear my head, and make sure i didnt destroy my big-screen TV. Im over it now though, and I am expecting the Mets to win the next two after this disgusting display.

end rant

Good Night

Burlington Bomb 26 07-23-2008 12:02 AM

the met game reminded me of the rangers-habs/Pens game:cry:

I Eat Crow 07-23-2008 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYReign (Post 14960350)
Who pitched in the ninth? I just saw the carnage afterwards, rough nights for Mets fans... on the plus side, Yanks are up to 10 games over .500 :)

Amen to that :yo:

But yeah, I caught the end of the game; the Mets bullpen absolutely imploded and blew it. I feel really bad for Santana.

Forechecker 07-23-2008 08:44 AM

I'm lucky I have a TV set after that fiasco. :shakehead: To me, it all started when Endy Chavez (?) was sent home on that deep single to right field and was tagged out at home in the 7th. If we had gotten one or two more insurance runs in that inning, I think the Phillies would've folded. I'm also surprised they didn't let Santana pitch the complete game.

nyr2k2 07-23-2008 09:02 AM

Santana should have been left out to pitch the ninth, IMO. With Wagner on the shelf, give your ace a chance to go the distance.

As horrendous as that game was, the Mets need to put it behind them. If they take the next two, they'll be a game up. Nothing wrong with that.

GAGLine 07-23-2008 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forechecker (Post 14963416)
I'm lucky I have a TV set after that fiasco. :shakehead: To me, it all started when Endy Chavez (?) was sent home on that deep single to right field and was tagged out at home in the 7th. If we had gotten one or two more insurance runs in that inning, I think the Phillies would've folded. I'm also surprised they didn't let Santana pitch the complete game.

He got thrown out twice at home. The first time on a throw from left field with no outs. The 3rd base coach had a bad game.

On the surface, I have no problem with them taking Santana out after 8, even with Wagner not being available. Given his pitch count and the fact that they had a 3 run lead, it wasn't a bad call.

But I think this situation highlights a problem in baseball right now with managers being such slaves to pitch counts. The more you baby pitchers, the more they will need to be babied. 10 or 20 more pitches wouldn't have killed Santana and they probably would have gotten the win.

sickboy35 07-23-2008 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danno2530 (Post 14960367)
Duaner Sanchez started the 9th, gave up 3 straight hits, Joe Smith relieved him and should have got an out but Reyes inexplicably decided to go for a tough play on a speedy Shane Victorino at 2nd, Feleciano relieved him and gave up hits to Taguchi and Rollins and then Heilman finished the inning.

i think u are being too kind to reyes on this one, he forgets how to play fundamental baseball and should be going for the sure out not try to be the "man" and do everything himself! yes the pitching sucked but smith got his man to do what he should have until reyes and his selfish style of play blew it open! i would effin punch a guy in the face if he played like that on my team!

klingsor 07-23-2008 09:54 AM

How many fewer games do you think Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal and countless others would have won if they were lifted for a pinch-hitter after 8 strong innings to bring in a "Closer"?

Santana's the ace of the Mets' staff. Let him pitch a complete game.

I didn't watch the game, so please excuse me if Santana was lifted for any "legitimate" reason.

Forever Blue 07-23-2008 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plato (Post 14960973)
Sorry to hijack but on a baseball related note is anybody else pulling for Mussina to get his first 20 win season of his career? Great player whose done more than enough to earn it if you ask me especially considering most doubted whether he would even hold a spot in the rotation by this time in the season.

I am. Mussina's been one of my favorites since his Baltimore days.

Forechecker 07-23-2008 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GAGLine (Post 14963640)
He got thrown out twice at home. The first time on a throw from left field with no outs. The 3rd base coach had a bad game.

On the surface, I have no problem with them taking Santana out after 8, even with Wagner not being available. Given his pitch count and the fact that they had a 3 run lead, it wasn't a bad call.

But I think this situation highlights a problem in baseball right now with managers being such slaves to pitch counts. The more you baby pitchers, the more they will need to be babied. 10 or 20 more pitches wouldn't have killed Santana and they probably would have gotten the win.

I will say, that on Endy's 2nd throw out at home, it was a perfect throw by the outfielder.

Yeah, that Reyes play was a head-scratcher. He's had a bunch of head-scratching errors and plays this year.

Stepan Razor 07-23-2008 10:14 AM

yeah but the second play where aguayo sent chavez was a pretty horrendous call. it was a looping base hit and chavez didn't get a great jump on the play because he wasn't entirely sure it was going to fall.

when in doubt, keep the runner on 3rd and you have 2nd and 3rd, no out. it was pretty much a no-brainer to me, i was in the stadium going nuts.

Forechecker 07-23-2008 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Daily (Post 14964152)
yeah but the second play where aguayo sent chavez was a pretty horrendous call. it was a looping base hit and chavez didn't get a great jump on the play because he wasn't entirely sure it was going to fall.

when in doubt, keep the runner on 3rd and you have 2nd and 3rd, no out. it was pretty much a no-brainer to me, i was in the stadium going nuts.

Yeah, no doubt it was a bad call by Aguayo, but had the throw been just a bit off he'd been safe.

SingnBluesOnBroadway 07-23-2008 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forechecker (Post 14964646)
Yeah, no doubt it was a bad call by Aguayo, but had the throw been just a bit off he'd been safe.

But the risk/reward for sending him is not worth it. Both times you have top hitters coming up who just need sac flies to score that run.

What I don't understand is why Manuel took Santana out - especially if you know that Wagner is not available.

ogie 07-23-2008 11:19 AM

he'll catch a break, once he is no longer playing for the muts.

Jackson Ranger 07-23-2008 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway (Post 14964705)
But the risk/reward for sending him is not worth it. Both times you have top hitters coming up who just need sac flies to score that run.

What I don't understand is why Manuel took Santana out - especially if you know that Wagner is not available.

He was the second hitter up in the bottom of the eighth inning, so I guess Manuel was looking to tack on some more runs.

I agree with a few people here, leave him in and see what happens in the ninth.

SingnBluesOnBroadway 07-23-2008 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackson Ranger (Post 14964810)
He was the second hitter up in the bottom of the eighth inning, so I guess Manuel was looking to tack on some more runs.

I agree with a few people here, leave him in and see what happens in the ninth.

I understand that. But if Wagner is not available, it changes your decision about taking Santana out. You need the best chance to get three outs in the ninth more so than they needed to tack on runs.

What's interesting is what Manuel would have done if the lead-off hitter had reached base. He probably would have left Santana in to bunt.

Jackson Ranger 07-23-2008 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway (Post 14964867)
I understand that. But if Wagner is not available, it changes your decision about taking Santana out. You need the best chance to get three outs in the ninth more so than they needed to tack on runs.

What's interesting is what Manuel would have done if the lead-off hitter had reached base. He probably would have left Santana in to bunt.

Interesting point but I think he was coming out anyway. http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/news/gam...=.jsp&c_id=nym

"One potential choice would have been to allow Santana, who threw 105 pitches in eight innings, to come back out for the ninth inning. But Manuel cited Santana's inexperience with heavy workloads as justification for calling on Sanchez instead."

At only 105 pitches, I would have started him in the 9th with Heilmann and Feliciano warmed up in case he was needed.


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