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-   -   Are people freaking out unnecessarily about re-signing our young guys under the cap? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=539103)

BrooklynRangersFan 07-25-2008 12:01 PM

Are people freaking out unnecessarily about re-signing our young guys under the cap?
 
A common lament I have heard after our most recent FA signings is that "oh no, what are we going to do when Staal/Dubinsky/etc.'s contract comes up? Slats has screwed us and we're going to lose all of our prospects in 2009 because he spent all our cap on Redden and Drury's horrible contracts!"

Now, if I look at the definitions of the various UFA Groups in the CBA, unless I'm very much mistaken, the only thing we have to worry about with any prospect that gets meaningful playing time on the big club is Group 3 UFA status. In other words, unless you're talking about Hugh Jessiman, it's a fairly safe bet that anyone we want to retain will get at least 80 games under his belt at the big club before turning 25 - which in turn means he can't become a UFA until either a)he turns 27 or b)he logs 7 seasons in a professional organization (i.e. on the roster of an NHL team, one of its minor league affiliates or a European major hockey team).

Therefore, if I look at my new favorite websites http://www.hockeybuzz.com/cap-central/team.php?team=NYR and http://nhlnumbers.com/overview.php?team=NYR&season=0809 this is how we look through 2011-2012, when Rozsie and Drury come off the books, freeing up $12.00MM:

PlayerAge09-1010-1111-12
Gomez28$7.36MM$7.36MM$7.36MM
Drury31$7.05MM$7.05MM$7.05MM
Naslund34$4.00MM--
Zherdev23RFARFA-
Prucha25RFA--
Korpikoski21RFARFARFA
Voros26$1.00MM$1.00MM-
Rissmiller29---
Fritsche22RFARFA-
Dubinsky22RFARFARFA
Betts28---
Dawes23RFARFARFA
Callahan23RFARFARFA
Orr26---
Sjostrom25RFA--
     
Redden31$6.50MM$6.50MM$6.50MM
Rozsival29$5.00MM$5.00MM$5.00MM
Kalinin27---
Mara28---
Girardi24$1.55MMRFA-
Staal21$0.83MMRFARFA
Pock26---
     
Lundqvist26$6.88MM$6.88MM$6.88MM
Valiquette30---
     
Under Contract 865
UFAs 7914
RFAs 995
     
Cap Room $16.14MM$22.52MM$23.52MM
Assuming NO cap increase, which I believe to be highly unlikely.

Of the players listed, Zherdev and Fritsche I believe are the only ones who turned pro early (i.e. prior to age 20) and they both have 4 years of service time, which means that they'll be UFAs in 3 more seasons (Zherdev at 26, Fritsche at 25). (It may be possible that Zherdev has only 2 more seasons - I don't know how the one year he spent at CSKA Moscow after being drafted is treated.) Everyone else appears to have turned pro at 20 (although Staal went straight from juniors to the NHL), which means we have their rights until they turn 27.

So if you look at it, despite all the criticism, Slats may be managing the cap masterfully - at least as regards retaining his own prospects. Will the kids need raises? Yes. But will they be huge? No - look at what Dawes and Fritsche got this year. As they get closer to UFA and/or if the player in question truly excels, they will top those numbers, but even then, Tyutin's and especially Girardi's deals from this past year (not to mention Prucha's from the year prior, which you will recall was coming off of 52 goals in his first 2 years) are probably representative of the best they can expect to receive.

Of course, our RFAs (Zherdev in particular) could attract offers from other teams. But look at the compensation rules:

Avg SalaryCompensation
$0.66MM-$1.00MM3rd
$1.01MM-$2.00MM2nd
$2.01MM-$3.00MM1st and 3rd
$3.01MM-$4.00MM1st, 2nd and 3rd
$4.01MM-$5.00MM2 1sts, 2nd and 3rd
$5.00MM+4 1sts

So, if someone wants to poach our players, they either have to offer a contract which we will be able to match under the cap or jump (potentially several rungs up) into the multiple picks compensation range. Here the rapid increase in the cap has really helped us - at the current cap number, and especially if it goes up another, say 5% a year, matching even a $3-4MM per anum offer sheet and still retaining all the other players can easily be done. And if another club decides to blow us out of the water? At that point we make the call, do we match (hypothetically speaking) the 5 year $35MM contract Toronto offers Zherdev? Or do we take their next 4 firsts...?

(Obviously the one wild card in all of this is whether or not the KHL becomes a real threat.)

Breaking it all down:
-Prucha and Sjostrom are Rangers property for at least two years.
-Zherdev, Fritsche and Girardi are Rangers property for at least three years.
-Dawes, Dubi, Cally, Korpi and Staal (and pretty much everyone else in the system except for Jessiman and Moore) are Rangers' property for at least four years, when - what a coincidence! - Drury and Rozsival come off the books.

And if they are given an offer sheet by another club, we get juicy picks as compensation (which given our glut of prospects who are 1-2 years away, might not be such a bad thing, depending on the player in question).

Of course, this looks a long way out, and a lot will obviously happen between now and 2012. But I do believe that the idea that the FAs we've signed will force us to give up some of our kids is a fallacy. Maybe the old man (or at least whoever his highly paid capologist is) isn't so crazy as some of you are making out, eh...?

(P.S. This stuff is TRULY complicated, so if I've made any mistakes above, please contribute your corrections.)

Synergy27 07-25-2008 12:11 PM

I try to not over-analyze salaries for exactly this reason: there are people being paid very handsomely to do this sort of management, and I seriously doubt that a team as well-resourced as the Rangers don't have an absolutely top-notch capologist working behind the scenes. There is so much uncertainty involved that it really makes little sense to make and/or hinder moves because of what might happen three years down the road. It makes even less sense to speculate about it on a message board.

What if the cap goes up 30% next year?
What if Drury has a career ending injury?
What if there's another strike/lockout and the cap is abolished?
What if Marc Staal's rookie year was a fluke and he never develops into a player that will command a huge salary?
What if that marquee UFA/RFA/trade target you've been saving cap space for ends up elsewhere?

It's absurd to make claims about how any GM is managing his future cap poorly because you, me and the hole in the wall have no idea what he's planning long-term. Present time cap hell (i.e. Anaheim, Tampa of last year, etc.) is another story.

Great post, by the way.

FutureGM97 07-25-2008 12:14 PM

Sather isn't signing these players to big contracts without having a plan to sign our younger players down the road. If he has done that, then he truly has screwed the Rangers but he is smarter than that despite what everyone may think. The Rangers will have no problem resigning young players in the future because they WANT to play here and if there is any indication from someone likes Dawes, who took a lot less than people thought, Ranger fans don't have to worry.

Fletch 07-25-2008 12:22 PM

So, if there's $16MM left - let's say Zherdev takes $4.5MM. Let's say that Dawes and Cally combined take $2MM. Let's say Fritsche is resigned at $1MM. Let's say Dubi's $2MM. That's $9.5MM and the team only has nine forwards signed. Need to get five more. Let's say that costs $4MM. There's $2.5MM left. No tope six UFA forward is signed under this scenario. Now the team needs three more defensemen and a backup goaltender with $2.5MM. Let's say the cap increases $3MM. That's three defensemen and a backup goalie at $5.5MM. That's not horrible, but it leaves the team with zero flexibility and no ability to take on a decent UFA without more roster juggling and trading.

I don't see the cap going up as much as it's done in the last couple years (it will level off at some point). They may be a bit heavy in terms of contracts to six players. It's manageable, but I can't say it's optimal.

Nich 07-25-2008 12:24 PM

no...want to avoid going gray....

Synergy27 07-25-2008 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch (Post 14987037)
So, if there's $16MM left - let's say Zherdev takes $4.5MM. Let's say that Dawes and Cally combined take $2MM. Let's say Fritsche is resigned at $1MM. Let's say Dubi's $2MM. That's $9.5MM and the team only has nine forwards signed. Need to get five more. Let's say that costs $4MM. There's $2.5MM left. No tope six UFA forward is signed under this scenario. Now the team needs three more defensemen and a backup goaltender with $2.5MM. Let's say the cap increases $3MM. That's three defensemen and a backup goalie at $5.5MM. That's not horrible, but it leaves the team with zero flexibility and no ability to take on a decent UFA without more roster juggling and trading.

I don't see the cap going up as much as it's done in the last couple years (it will level off at some point). They may be a bit heavy in terms of contracts to six players. It's manageable, but I can't say it's optimal.

All valid points, but the key in my eyes is that you can't say the current situation is optimal, but you also can't describe to me what the optimal situation should be. No one can because of the uncertainty involved. What seems optimal now may not be in the future, and vice versa.

Trxjw 07-25-2008 01:00 PM

No point in worrying about the salary cap until at least the trade deadline. You have no idea what the cap number will be or who will be on your roster when it comes time to sign players.

Don't bother saying "We have to sign Player X in 2 years!!" because 1) You don't know if he'll even be on this team anymore, and 2) You have no idea how they'll perform between now and then.

BrooklynRangersFan 07-25-2008 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch (Post 14987037)
So, if there's $16MM left - let's say Zherdev takes $4.5MM. Let's say that Dawes and Cally combined take $2MM. Let's say Fritsche is resigned at $1MM. Let's say Dubi's $2MM. That's $9.5MM and the team only has nine forwards signed. Need to get five more. Let's say that costs $4MM. There's $2.5MM left. No tope six UFA forward is signed under this scenario. Now the team needs three more defensemen and a backup goaltender with $2.5MM. Let's say the cap increases $3MM. That's three defensemen and a backup goalie at $5.5MM. That's not horrible, but it leaves the team with zero flexibility and no ability to take on a decent UFA without more roster juggling and trading.

I don't see the cap going up as much as it's done in the last couple years (it will level off at some point). They may be a bit heavy in terms of contracts to six players. It's manageable, but I can't say it's optimal.

But what I'm beginning to understand is that that's EXACTLY the way it works - only I think you're still overestimating. I think if you're anything other than a young star, you keep getting 20% bumps until you're 1-2 years from UFA and then the club offers you a multiyear deal at a midlevel salary, rewarding you a year early in order to get the hometown discount (which we've seen again and again) for the UFA years you give up. Tyutin's deal, for example, is for $2.8MM per - but it kicks in in his second to last RFA year and extends 2 years into his UFA eligibility. If you step up to become an integral part of the team at a young age you might get bumped into the $1.5MM range, as Prucha and Girardi did, for your last contract terminating in your RFA period, but I don't think you're going any higher than that so early on - and certainly not unless you give up UFA years at a discount.

So, if Cally plays on the 3rd line and pots 13 goals, why would they give him any more than Fritsche got? (Heck, we should all hope for a 30% raise!) And if Dubi puts up the numbers for the Rangers to reward him with a $2MM per year contract, even though he's a RFA for 3 more years, haven't you got your missing top 6 forward problem solved? Similar story with Zherdev - if he does enough to warrant a $4.5MM per year contract when he's still got 2 years left as an RFA, then he's probably scoring 40 goals (and wouldn't THAT be a good problem to have?).

Also, the team is clearly anticipating that it will continue to get contributions from the lower levels. Renney today talked as if Potter already has a shot at the club and Sangs and Sauer shouldn't be far behind. There are more than enough guys who could do a competent job as 4th line forwards for less than $1MM each.

Fletch, under the scenario you propose, adding up all the little drips and drabs where I think you're overestimating, I believe you're actually left with $3-5MM in cap room.

I guess it shouldn't surprise me - these guys do do it for a living and MSG has the cash and available talent pool in NYC to have the best numbers crunchers in the biz - but the cap allocation is clearly planned a lot more carefully than any of us give the team credit for.

NYR Viper 07-25-2008 04:23 PM

its impossible to guess what all of the players will get next season, however here is what i would like to see:

dubinsky(3 @ 1.8 million)
dawes(3 @1.5 million)
zherdev(4 @ 3.5 million)
korpikoski(2 @ .8)
callahan(2 @ .9)
fritsche(2 @ .9)

all of those players are now under contract, plus:

drury
gomez
naslund
rozsival
redden
staal
voros
girardi
hank


just throwing together a random set of lines:

naslund-gomez-zherdev
dawes-dubinsky-drury
callahan-anisimov-fritsche
korpikoski-moore-voros

----with the forwards this is with no UFA being signed....i consider that a very good lineup.....also cheraponov isnt there either which would only make it better...either way, thats a solid lineup

staal-redden
rozsival-girardi
___-___(potter, sanguinetti, sauer)

-----on defense the top 4 are already set and there are spots for a young player to grab like potter or sanguinetti and if they still arent ready the rangers could make signings like they did this season......either way thats a cheap fix

hank
___(wiikman)


------the goalies will be set for a long time with hank here....if wiikman isnt ready for the backup role the rangers could sign another goalie for about .8 million or so to keep the cap numbers down......


either way, if the rangers only resign the RFA's they have a solid lineup and can ice a competitive team

Turambar 07-25-2008 05:52 PM

Great post, very well thought out.

The only guy that really worries me is Zherdev. Even before he became a Ranger, there was already talk of him eyeing a return to Russia, and with Radulov's (supposedly his best friend here in North America) defection, I suspect that he'll at the very least be tempted to accept what is likely to be a much better contract offer from a KHL. Of course, if this is the case, and he wants to leave, there's nothing the Rangers can do, but I just don't want him to leave because of money, as a result of Sather low-balling him.

This kid has true superstar potential, we could have our very own Malkin in this kid, and I want to see the Rangers take a patient, gentle approach with him. And if by chance he does have a breakout year, he's going to want to get paid. We all saw what happened a few years back with him, he threatened to leave Columbus and actually signed a 1-year deal in Russia, but then Columbus offered him more money like he wanted, so he stayed.

Bottom line - if it becomes clear this kid truly is something special, Sather better find a way to keep him, whatever he needs to do.

Son of Steinbrenner 07-25-2008 08:08 PM

So basically the Rangers CAN HOPEFULLY resign all of there RFA but can't sign or trade for ANY other players....

Awesome......

That's called being up against the cap....It's called being up against the cap in the future as well....It's called bad salary cap management.......

The situation can't really be twisted into being anything else......If the Rangers need improvments this coming season they have no room to make them...BEST case scenario you can resign your own Restricted Free Agents after this season....

Does anybody REALLY want to be in a situation where Dubinsky is poached by another team?

Can we not discount the impact the KHL might have on Zherdevs contract after this season?

If we are giving Rozsival $5.0 and Redden $6.5M what is Staal going to be worth when the time comes?

Synergy27 07-25-2008 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner (Post 14990835)
So basically the Rangers CAN HOPEFULLY resign all of there RFA but can't sign or trade for ANY other players....

Awesome......

That's called being up against the cap....It's called being up against the cap in the future as well....It's called bad salary cap management.......

The situation can't really be twisted into being anything else......If the Rangers need improvments this coming season they have no room to make them...BEST case scenario you can resign your own Restricted Free Agents after this season....

Does anybody REALLY want to be in a situation where Dubinsky is poached by another team?

Can we not discount the impact the KHL might have on Zherdevs contract after this season?

If we are giving Rozsival $5.0 and Redden $6.5M what is Staal going to be worth when the time comes?

S.O.S being negative? Really? Surprise surprise.

FutureGM97 07-25-2008 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner (Post 14990835)
If we are giving Rozsival $5.0 and Redden $6.5M what is Staal going to be worth when the time comes?

Staal isn't going to make as much as them when his entry level contract expires

Son of Steinbrenner 07-25-2008 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synergy27 (Post 14991759)
S.O.S being negative? Really? Surprise surprise.

Negative or unhappy at the salary cap situation?

Do you really believe I'm going to root against the team on the ice?

It's funny....I used to be accused of being to positive....now I'm being accused of being to negative....

I don't agree with the veterans brought in nor the sudden change of philosphy by Sather and the rest of the organization. I'm not talking about going younger I'm talking about giving out no trade clauses and No movement clauses to no sure thing players.



Quote:

Originally Posted by FutureGM97 (Post 14991874)
Staal isn't going to make as much as them when his entry level contract expires


The bar being raised for the price of defenseman over the next two offseasons combined with Staals play is $5.0M a year really such a stretch?

NYR Viper 07-25-2008 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner (Post 14990835)
So basically the Rangers CAN HOPEFULLY resign all of there RFA but can't sign or trade for ANY other players....

Awesome......

That's called being up against the cap....It's called being up against the cap in the future as well....It's called bad salary cap management.......

The situation can't really be twisted into being anything else......If the Rangers need improvments this coming season they have no room to make them...BEST case scenario you can resign your own Restricted Free Agents after this season....

Does anybody REALLY want to be in a situation where Dubinsky is poached by another team?

Can we not discount the impact the KHL might have on Zherdevs contract after this season?

If we are giving Rozsival $5.0 and Redden $6.5M what is Staal going to be worth when the time comes?

the rangers will have plenty of room to sign all of their RFA's..........that wont be a problem unless some team offers one of them 5 million a season(which wont happen next season)...........also, i see no reason to go out and sign anyone....they have enough talent coming up through their farm system to solidify any positions that come up for the next couple of years at least in anisimov, cheraponov, byers, korpikoski, moore, sauer, potter, sanguinetti........there are players for practically every position the rangers might need.....


honestly, if another team wants to try and sign dubi for 6 million a season and give up the ingodly amount of picks for him fine......thats great.....the rangers would get a ton of picks and pick up someone else.......do i want to see it happen?....no....but even if the rangers even had the cap space they have a number that they wont go over.....they had it for jagr.....and they had it for avery

Blueshirt13 07-26-2008 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 (Post 14992252)
the rangers will have plenty of room to sign all of their RFA's..........that wont be a problem unless some team offers one of them 5 million a season(which wont happen next season)...........also, i see no reason to go out and sign anyone....they have enough talent coming up through their farm system to solidify any positions that come up for the next couple of years at least in anisimov, cheraponov, byers, korpikoski, moore, sauer, potter, sanguinetti........there are players for practically every position the rangers might need.....

This is why drafting well in this day and age is so important. You have to have players coming up through your system that can step in and fill some of the holes on your roster, regardless of whether the salary cap goes up or down.

One thing to point out, at this time last year, the vast majority of the board, both Rangers fans and rivals, were commenting on how screwed we were salary cap wise and how we would not be able to sign another big name free agent atleast for the next two years. Correct me if I am wrong but I do believe we signed both Redden and Naslund this year, and managed to get Rozsival back, someone who many considered one of the top 5 FA defensemen. Additionally, we landed Zherdev and Fritsche, a top line and a 3rd/4th line forward, at the expense of a reasonably priced Tyutin and Backman, a guy who more than likely would have been buried for cap reasons in Hartford.

Sather and company know what they are doing and year in will managed the team and get the most out of the cap. Judging by this thread, not all have faith in the hired professionals that have been doing this for years and that is your right and opinion. With Cablevision owning the organization, we are one of the few teams that can spend each dollar of the cap and still run at a profit. We are also one of the few teams that can afford to bury someone making $1m+ in Hartford and looking at the past two years in Kasp and Hutchinson, they are not afraid to do it. For me personally, I just believe the organization will make the most of each cap dollar every year because no one can predict where the cap will go in the future. I trust also that they are thinking about the future with each contract signing and that is why there are a few 1 year deals always in the mix.

Tender Rip 07-26-2008 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueshirt13 (Post 14992630)
Sather and company know what they are doing and year in will managed the team and get the most out of the cap. Judging by this thread, not all have faith in the hired professionals that have been doing this for years and that is your right and opinion.

Its not too hard to understand why many Rangers fans are mad when two of your four most expensive players are vastly overpayed, one modestly overpaid and your world class keeper is paid market value but certainly not taking a discount. Add that Rozival is certainly not cheap at 5 million, and that except from Lundqvist, all of them are not easily tradable at these prices.

All of those contracts are a year old or less, and we're talking something like 32.7 million for Gomez, Drury, Redden, Rozi and Henrik.

Given that our five main contracts have been given to players with identical roles, I think it is illustrative how massive the discrepancy in bang for the buck is with Crosby, Malkin, Gonchar, Whitney and Fleury at 31.4 million.
You can do the same exercise with lots of teams, and Rangers will come out looking overpaid in most all of them. As soon as your young guys really show their quality, signing them will hurt, and at the same time the numerous big (unappetizing) contracts you have, makes it difficult to compete for major UFA's to give a boost to your competitiveness.

Personally I see Sather's way ending up keeping you perpetually borderline in the next couple of years. Otherwise your youngsters really have to go from decent/good to great, and save for Staal and Dubi to a lesser extent, none of them have shown any signs of going there yet.

Bottom line is that you just cannot overpay on several top earners and expect to be a contender. Sather has and that is why many see you struggling to get to the playoffs this season.

Ian 07-26-2008 06:06 AM

Of course the Pens are getting a better "bang for the buck," that's probably the most obvious observation in the entire world. The Rangers signed 3 players on the open market, what did you expect?

You can't purely build through FA in a salary cap system? Wow, who would have thought.

We need more worrying about the cap status of our team in 4 years like I need another hole in my head.

Tender Rip 07-26-2008 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian (Post 14993471)
Of course the Pens are getting a better "bang for the buck," that's probably the most obvious observation in the entire world.

Our case is obviously a special one because with four of those contracts even having those players was the result of sucking big time in the past.

But this, seriously, is not to brag about my own team. You played us tougher than any other team in the East last year, and I respected that team and NY in general. As I said, you can try and do the same excercise with many other teams and see what you come up with. Whichever way players are signed, if the spine of your team is heavily overpaid and on long term contracts... then you have a problem. As all of these guys have gotten their contracts in the last year, it is one your management is ultimately reponsible for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian (Post 14993471)
The Rangers signed 3 players on the open market, what did you expect?

Simply the realisation that if you sign players at elevated contracts on the open market, you better be sure that they are that good, and fit the needs of your team. Otherwise you pass.

Fletch 07-26-2008 07:22 AM

Brf..
 
If Zherdev scores 80 points this season the Rangers will try to lock him up for six seasons. They aren't going to lock him up for six seasons with a 30% increase over this season. That may get him either to hold out, go to Russia, or become really dsgruntled and guarantee he leave the moment he gets a chance.

BrooklynRangersFan 07-26-2008 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch (Post 14993573)
If Zherdev scores 80 points this season the Rangers will try to lock him up for six seasons. They aren't going to lock him up for six seasons with a 30% increase over this season. That may get him either to hold out, go to Russia, or become really dsgruntled and guarantee he leave the moment he gets a chance.

I didn't say anything about Zherdev getting a 30% increase - the player I mentioned getting a 30% increase was Cally, which is what he'd be gettting if next season he gets the same deal that Fritsche got this year. What I said about Zherdev is if he gets the contract you described, he will have most likely scored 40 goals - in which case, yes, we will try to lock him up longterm and I have no problem with your estimate of $4.5MM per year.

As to him fleeing to Russia, until there's an agreement in place between the leagues, I think that's indeed a real concern - not just for the Rangers with Zherdev, but for every NHL team with every player. If the KHL is going to start spending like drunken sailors on any player that doesn't have a contract (since they're not part of the CBA they don't have to recognize RFA status - just who is under contract and who isn't), we're all going to have a problem. "Hey Marc Staal, you're still an RFA in the NHL for the next 3 years? Why not come over here and we'll pay you $6MM per year tax free starting now..." *shudder*

BrooklynRangersFan 07-26-2008 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by There's only one 66 (Post 14993540)
Our case is obviously a special one because with four of those contracts even having those players was the result of sucking big time in the past.

But this, seriously, is not to brag about my own team. You played us tougher than any other team in the East last year, and I respected that team and NY in general. As I said, you can try and do the same excercise with many other teams and see what you come up with. Whichever way players are signed, if the spine of your team is heavily overpaid and on long term contracts... then you have a problem. As all of these guys have gotten their contracts in the last year, it is one your management is ultimately reponsible for.



Simply the realisation that if you sign players at elevated contracts on the open market, you better be sure that they are that good, and fit the needs of your team. Otherwise you pass.

Okay, but as a Pens fan, you really have no business making this argument. You DID benefit from sucking for years, you DID benefit from having Malkin/Crosby/Whitney/etc. come up in your organziation. The Rangers? We were never bad enough to get that homegrown offensive superstar. Except the one year we WERE bad enough, the lockout happened, the draft was reshuffled (I still don't understand why) and you guys, who already had Malkin, Fleury, Whitney, etc. magically received the generational talent Crosby just in time to prevent Mario's organziation from going bankrupt.

Okay, okay, I'll drop the conspiracy theory bit, but you can see why a PENS fan in particular would rankle some folks for preaching to us about cap management. Did you read my original post? The point is that the only "cheap" contracts are the ones you get with the guys who come up through your own organization who you can offer a)the benefit of not having to move and b)more importantly, a high salary while they're still RFAs - for which they will reward you by not demanding every last dollar that they could receive as an unfettered unrestricted FA. The Pens have those superstar players. We don't, 'cause we never got the benefit of your draft picks.

So all of this begs the question - how would you propose that the Rangers become this team that you respected WITHOUT the expenditures that they made? You don't get the players they got without paying those salaries. So the only other option is to get inferior players (and be even more "borderline" than they are) or to get no one, suck for 2 or 3 years, get the high draft picks and eventually hope to be competitive in, say, 5 years down the line.

I think that Slats is very carefully trying to walk a tightrope that straddles the draft/sign dispute: 1) Draft well and stockpile young assets that will take some time to develop; 2) Pick 3 or 4 UFAs that you think can be a core to build around (and, importantly, role models for the younger players coming up) and get them; 3) Fill in around the core with older veterans who fall away while the kids get ready for show time.

So far, it seems to be working. But this year will be the true test.

BrooklynRangersFan 07-26-2008 08:44 AM

SOS, you start out ranting as if you read my original post, but then you wind up with the same laments that I explained were unfounded!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner (Post 14990835)
So basically the Rangers CAN HOPEFULLY resign all of there RFA but can't sign or trade for ANY other players....

Awesome......

That's called being up against the cap....It's called being up against the cap in the future as well....It's called bad salary cap management.......

Okay, this much is true - we don't have the room to go out and make any big moves for a player who's got a contract of any size (unless one of ours goes back). But as I said in a post above, I think what Slats has done is to pick the core FAs he wants and is now filling in with youth. Drury, Gomez and Redden are the veteran first order players he wants to build around.

Furthermore, by signing the guys he's targeted early in the life of the CBA, he benefits from the fact that the contracts will become more and more economical in relation to an increasing cap. How much would Gomez, for example, have commanded if he'd been an UFA THIS year? How much NEXT year? When the big name UFA Dman hits the market in 2 years and gets $9MM per anum, Redden's deal is going to look mighty cheap by comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner (Post 14990835)
The situation can't really be twisted into being anything else......If the Rangers need improvments this coming season they have no room to make them...BEST case scenario you can resign your own Restricted Free Agents after this season....

Does anybody REALLY want to be in a situation where Dubinsky is poached by another team?

Can we not discount the impact the KHL might have on Zherdevs contract after this season?

If we are giving Rozsival $5.0 and Redden $6.5M what is Staal going to be worth when the time comes?

And here's where you're back to the same old lament. By the time it's time for Dubi or Staal to get paid, we will have the room to do it! Did you not read my original post? We will either be able to sign them to a reasonable contract over the next couple of years or will get handsomely compensated with draft picks. When they get close to UFA status, the contracts everyone hates will be off the books and there will be plenty of room for all to be paid (hopefully at the hometown discount that we see other organizations receiving).

Quote:

Originally Posted by FutureGM97 (Post 14991874)
Staal isn't going to make as much as them when his entry level contract expires

EXACTLY.

eco's bones 07-26-2008 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by There's only one 66 (Post 14993540)
Our case is obviously a special one because with four of those contracts even having those players was the result of sucking big time in the past.

But this, seriously, is not to brag about my own team. You played us tougher than any other team in the East last year, and I respected that team and NY in general. As I said, you can try and do the same excercise with many other teams and see what you come up with. Whichever way players are signed, if the spine of your team is heavily overpaid and on long term contracts... then you have a problem. As all of these guys have gotten their contracts in the last year, it is one your management is ultimately reponsible for.



Simply the realisation that if you sign players at elevated contracts on the open market, you better be sure that they are that good, and fit the needs of your team. Otherwise you pass.

I tend to agree. I think the Rangers should have held back on at least one of the d-men. I'll add that 7 mil for a 32 year old Drury is too much. When his contract expires it will be 7 mil for a 37 year old Drury. Though he's overpaid the logic for the signing was good at the time as the team believed after losing to the Sabres in '07 that they were a player or two away possibly from being a championship team--specifically a 2nd line center and a puck moving pwp d-man. I don't think the Rangers as presently constituted are a legit contender having just lost their one truly elite forward. I think we're taking a step back and I don't see the logic of signing either Redden or Roszival long term for the kind of money they're making. I suppose though that it's possible that Zherdev might step somewhat into Jagr's role but that's a we'll see. The Rangers most valuable assets as of now are Lundqvist, Staal, Zherdev and Dubinsky--only one of them is getting the big money and with limited cap space the Rangers will probably have to play hardball with some if not all of them.

Tender Rip 07-26-2008 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan (Post 14993710)
Okay, but as a Pens fan, you really have no business making this argument.

Well.... I believe it to be true :help:. If an Isles fan said something similar would you tell him that his opinion shouldn't be aired, because their management is worse?

Either way, 'eco's bones' is saying pretty much exactly the same, so if you find it offensive to have this debate with me, you can have it with him :).

As for your question as to what to do now.... I seriously haven't a clue. That's one of the side effects of having loaded up on big long term contracts that are difficult to trade. You're pretty much stuck with what you have unless you make trades with your prospects and picks.
As a Penguin fan and divisional rival, obviously this doesn't displease me in the least, but as a casual observer - especially the Redden deal was atrocious as it was on top of the others, and I agree with eco that the Drury one at least could have been argued to make sense despite being steep.


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