HFBoards

HFBoards (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/index.php)
-   The History of Hockey (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=126)
-   -   Top 100 Players - Stan Fischler, 1988 (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=548865)

kmad 09-04-2008 09:56 PM

Top 100 Players - Stan Fischler, 1988
 
I was at an antique store earlier today (they have a few shelves of assorted hockey memorabilia that I peruse about once a month) and found a $5 book from 1988 written by Stan Fischler that outlines who he thinks are the top 100 players of all time. There are definitely some interesting selections.

He outlines his admittedly subjective protocol for his list.

Quote:

They are based on my personal viewing as much as possible. I began watching hockey in 1939 and, therefore, have had a first-hand look at the majority of players evaluated.

As for the players who skated in earlier seasons, I relied as much as possible on the word of those who were there and, in other cases, on the printed word. This was not an era that was taken lightly, which meant that considerable research was involved in appraising the likes of Eddie Shore, Frank Boucher, and their ilk.

Adjustments had to be made to suit the era. Significantly fewer games were played before World War II than in the postwar period, and goals were more difficult to come by in the epoch of defensive hockey that preceded the introduction of the center red line in 1944. When I was a youth, anyone who scored twenty goals in a season was considered the equivalent of a .300 hitter in baseball. Nowadays, an NHL sharpshooter would have to pot at least forty goals to be included in that category.

Another sticky point was the inclusion of goaltenders alongside forwards and defensemen on the list. The temptation was to list goalies separately, but that would have been too easy to I arbitrarily decided to place one goalie in every group of ten where feasible, while maintaining a balance of scorers and defenders throughout the book.

The biggest problem in the end was creating a standard that would apply to all eras despite the fact that the styles of play varied tremendously. To do so, a strict set of standards was established. This included longevity, championship teams, awards, records, impact on the game, character, the quality of hockey played at the time, and the quality of the team on which the player performed.
The Top 100: I've added their HoH aggregate ranking for comparison's sake.
1. Gordie Howe (3) +2
2. Wayne Gretzky (1) -1
3. Eddie Shore (7) +4
4. Red Kelly (18) +14
5. Frank Boucher (59) +55
6. Maurice Richard (6) E
7. Howie Morenz (10) +3
8. Jean Beliveau (8) E
9. Doug Harvey (9) E
10. Glenn Hall (21) +11
11. Syl Apps (38) +27
12. Denis Potvin (17) +5
13. Bobby Orr (2) -11
14. Bobby Hull (5) -9
15. Bryan Trottier (28) +13
16. Bill Cook (43) +27
17. Max Bentley (T-46) +29
18. Georges Vezina (112) +94
19. King Clancy (T-53) +34
20. Mario Lemieux (4) -16
21. Nels Stewart (66) +45
22. Mike Bossy (27) +5
23. Lester Patrick (T-224) +201
24. Marcel Pronovost (T-158) +134
25. Paul Coffey (T-46) +21
26. Toe Blake (79) +53
27. Bernie Geoffrion (39) +12
28. Henri Richard (57) +29
29. Dickie Moore (55) +26
30. Joe Primeau (140) +110
31. Frank Mahovlich (49) +18
32. Milt Schmidt (31) -1
33. Ted Kennedy (72) +39
34. Mark Messier (24) -10
35. Charlie Conacher (45) +10
36. Bobby Clarke (22) -14
37. Jacques Plante (12) -25
38. Aurel Joliat (T-69) +31
39. Marcel Dionne (48) +9
40. Terry Sawchuk (19) -21
41. Ted Lindsay (23) -18
42. Phil Esposito (20) -22
43. Doug Bentley (90) +47
44. Frank Frederickson (T-190) +146
45. Bill Durnan (44) -1
46. Brad Park (40) -6
47. Turk Broda (60) +13
48. Bryan Hextall (T-242) +194
49. Tim Horton (58) +9
50. Art Coulter (NR)
51. Guy Lafleur (15) -36
52. Bill Cowley (78) +26
53. Ching Johnson (T-176) +123
54. Sweeney Schriner (128) +74
55. Stan Mikita (14) -41
56. Bullet Joe Simpson (T-201) +145
57. Yvan Cournoyer (102) +45
58. Denis Savard (127) +69
59. Sid Abel (93) +34
60. Johnny Bower (75) +15
61. Ken Dryden (37) -24
62. Dit Clapper (T-53) -9
63. Bill Mosienko (207) +144
64. Hobey Baker (NR)
65. Black Jack Stewart (111) +46
66. Cooney Weiland (NR)
67. Dave Keon (86) +19
68. Babe Pratt (141) +73
69. Charlie Gardiner (T-97) +28
70. Syd Howe (NR)
71. Dick Irvin (T-227) +156
72. Dale Hawerchuk (123) +51
73. Frank Brimsek (79) +6
74. Duke Keats (T-230) +156
75. Billy Smith (91) +16
76. Peter Stastny (69) -7
77. Babe Dye (118) +41
78. Ray Bourque (11) -67
79. Red Dutton (NR)
80. Chuck Rayner (NR)
81. Bob Gainey (103) +23
82. Tom Johnson (T-172) +90
83. Bill Quackenbush (125) +42
84. Roy Worters (T-216) +132
85. Roger Crozier (NR)
86. Carl Brewer (NR)
87. Guy Lapointe (116) +29
88. Kevin Lowe (NR)
89. Grant Fuhr (105) +16
90. Mark Howe (113) +23
91. Rod Langway (110) +19
92. Gerry Cheevers (NR)
93. Hap Day (NR)
94. Andy Bathgate (61) -27
95. Alex Connell (200) -195
96. Allan Stanley (NR)
97. Gump Worsley (152) +55
98. Murray Murdoch (NR)
99. Alex Delvecchio (100) +1
100. Larry Robinson (28) -72

Fischler explains his extraordinarily low ranking of Bobby Orr:

Quote:

One reason for Bobby Orr's relatively low rating (for him) is the indisputable fact that he played during the NHL's first decade of expansion (1967-1977) when the game's quality was at an all-time low. By contrast, Doug Harvey, who in my estimation was a better defenseman than Orr, starred during the NHL's pre-expansion era when overall quality and competition were at their zenith.
Personally, I think he was just going for shock value.

On Frank Boucher:
Basically, the calculated ranking bounced Boucher so extraordinarily high based on the amount of Lady Byng trophies he won. I'm assuming Fischler awarded the same amount of points for each type of trophy.

On the high amount of old timers:
He prefaces his book by saying goals back in the olden days were hard to come by. I have to think he weighed goals back then a little too heavily in comparison to other eras. I know a trend on this forum is to weigh goals relative to total goals scored in their own era, to achieve more of a balance, which is probably a better way of assessing the statistic.

Of course, since the book was published in 1988, before the careers of guys like Lidstrom, Fedorov, Jagr, Hasek, et. al. had even started, and before careers of guys like Yzerman, Roy, Sakic, Chelios, and so forth had had a chance to manifest completely, there is bound to be a slew of older players to fill the gap.

Still, he has Guy Lafleur ranked behind guys who had second jobs as milkmen. The old-timer bias is a bit offputting.

On Mario Lemieux:
That has to be a testament to how dominant Lemieux was as a younger player. He had only a few seasons under his belt at the time of this book's publication and he's already ranked #20.

Dynasty by dynasty:
There are noticeable trends within dynasties.

70s Habs get shafted quite a bit - Lafleur, Dryden, Robinson are all way too low. But Cournoyer is way up the list for some reason.

80s Oilers are overrated. Messier does not deserve to be that high, considering the career he had accomplished to that point. Coffey is also too high. Kevin Lowe shouldn't be anywhere near the list.

On foreign players:
He doesn't specify anywhere that the list is NHL-based (the book is called The All New Hockey's 100), but it very clearly is.

--------------

Basically, I did this list for myself, because I'm still learning most of hockey history, but anyone is free to post observations.

Also, if someone wants me to pull up some explanations from the book on why a certain player is ranked a certain way, just let me know.

Dark Shadows 09-04-2008 10:08 PM

Ugh. Its terrible. I am staying away from this one just because all I will do is rip it apart.

I do not care how they justify it. Orr that low just burned this list's credibility. They punish him for playing during expansion, yet let the WW2 guys who played in a watered down league slide??

Lemieux had played a total of 4 seasons by this point, and had no business that high in 1988.

Bathgate as 94?????????

Arg, I am already doing it.

Gotta leave.

MS 09-04-2008 10:15 PM

Well, it's exactly what you'd expect from Fischler - a pile of crap. First thing that stands out (aside from the laughable Orr ranking) is the predictable huge pro-Islander (and anti-Montreal) bias - Potvin, Bossy, and Trottier all in the top 22, while Lafleur is 51st and Robinson 100th (behind Kevin Lowe?!?).

Still interesting in some ways, although in terms of the knowledge presented its pretty rubbish.

MS 09-04-2008 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thornton_19 (Post 15351651)
Ugh. Its terrible. I am staying away from this one just because all I will do is rip it apart.

I do not care how they justify it. Orr that low just burned this list's credibility. They punish him for playing during expansion, yet let the WW2 guys who played in a watered down league slide??

Lemieux had played a total of 4 seasons by this point, and had no business that high in 1988.

Bathgate as 94?????????

Arg, I am already doing it.

Gotta leave.

While everything else you say is true, Lemieux was coming off a 70 goal, 168 point season in 1988 coupled with a brilliant performance at the '87 Canada Cup. He already had four consecutive 100-point season under his belt and was clearly one of the best players ever to play the game. I'd probably have ranked him higher at the time.

Doctor No 09-04-2008 10:21 PM

I had to stop using Fischler as a source for my goaltender trivia because his material was so full of inaccuracies.

He tells some entertaining stories, but I wouldn't trust his sense of hockey history.

pappyline 09-04-2008 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doctor No (Post 15351803)
I had to stop using Fischler as a source for my goaltender trivia because his material was so full of inaccuracies.

He tells some entertaining stories, but I wouldn't trust his sense of hockey history.

Fischler doesn't know squat yet he has made aliving writing about hockey. I do own a 1983 version of a hockey encyclopedia that he & his wife compiled and it is very well organized & I use it a lot. Thankfully, it is all facts & has none of his screwball opinions in it. Orr & hull at #13 & #14--Ridiculous.

Stonefly 09-04-2008 10:44 PM

Fischler is quite possibly the worst hockey journalist there has ever been.
What kind of credibilty can a guy have who says he ranked Orr so low because he played during expansion but ranks Potvin ahead of Orr while playing during the same expansion?
He always did have a crush on Potvin.
As far as I'm concerned he's nothing more than a yellow journalist.

pitseleh 09-04-2008 10:53 PM

I appreciate that he was able to find room for players like Duke Keats, Red Dutton, and Syd Howe on the list, but as has been mentioned it's generally bad.

For example, how could you justify having Art Coulter at 50 then not having his much more dominant contemporary Earl Seibert?

Thanks for posting the list though, it must have taken forever to type it all out.

kmad 09-04-2008 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pitseleh (Post 15352192)
Thanks for posting the list though, it must have taken forever to type it all out.

I enjoyed it. I'm trying to become well-versed in hockey history and this was a good way to familiarize myself with a lot of the older names.

Kyle McMahon 09-04-2008 11:16 PM

I like the fact that old-timers populate the list simply for the fact that it is tough to find information on some of them. But the rankings of course are just plain silly in some cases. I'll have to dig that book out again, for comic relief if nothing else.

Fischler loves New York, so naturally he gives his Islanders their due. And the list is bursting at the seams with old Rangers and NY Americans, many of which are laughably overrated. Yet somehow Andy Bathgate, the best Ranger since the war at that point (he might still be the best since the war), gets shafted at 94th.

Fischler was always anti-Oilers, but Messier at 34 was high during that time period. Kevin Lowe in the top 100 is baffling. Coffey at 25 may look high, but is certainly justifiable, and Fuhr also made the list. #2 was about as high as you could put Gretzky at that point. Yet Jari Kurri didn't make the list at all?

Fischler obviously thought that Red Kelly made the 50's Wings what they were (with Howe of course), because teammates Terry Sawchuk and Ted Lindsay are way down at 40 and 41.

Red Dutton at 79 probably struck me the most. I knew him more as the one-time league president than an NHL defensmen, and figured it was just Fischler propping up another one of his New York boys. But then I find out he's actually in the HOF as a PLAYER?! Caught off guard by that one for sure.

Here's an interesting thought: Would this list, one constructed by somebody who writes about hockey for a living, have been rejected for submission in the Top 100 project? (Excusing the lack of post-1988 players, of course)

Hockey Outsider 09-04-2008 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doctor No (Post 15351803)
He tells some entertaining stories, but I wouldn't trust his sense of hockey history.

Well said. I own a copy of his Top 100 player book (1988 edition). While it does a great job of providing anecdotes, there are so many biases and inconsistencies that I have a hard time taking the rankings seriously.

A few issues not already mentioned:
- Fischler seems to be "counting Cups" even more than The Hockey News did. Pronovost (24), Richard (28), Messier (34... unsupportable in 1988), Cournoyer (57), Johnson (82), Kevin Lowe (88) all seem way too high.
- There are some rankings that just don't make sense. Aside from an obscure statistical quirk, why does Bill Mosienko deserve to be 63? Cooney Weiland had one huge year in the fluky 1929-30 season and is 66th. They're nearly as high as Lafleur (51) and Mikita (55)!
- Marcel Pronovost is ranked higher than his two teammates Sawchuk and Lindsay?
- Doesn't seem to like the '70s Bruins: Orr (13) and Esposito (42) are both way too low. Bucyk probably was top 100 twenty years ago. Surprised he has Cheevers, though (92).
- Bobby Orr is knocked about 10 spots for lack of competition... but Babe Pratt (who earned both all-star berths, all his top ten assist/point finishes, and won his only Hart during the badly depleted war years, when half the league was in the Armed Forces) is within eight spots of Dryden & Clapper?

Still, there are a lot of great anecdotes in the book. (Fischler's lists about greatest defensive forwards & defensemen, greatest playoff performers, etc, were fascinating). The book is a good read, but it's not very useful for rankings.

pitseleh 09-04-2008 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon (Post 15352485)
Red Dutton at 79 probably struck me the most. I knew him more as the one-time league president than an NHL defensmen, and figured it was just Fischler propping up another one of his New York boys. But then I find out he's actually in the HOF as a PLAYER?! Caught off guard by that one for sure.

Don't know if his resume is necessarily HoF worthy, but he was a two time first team all-star and finished top-5 for the Hart twice in the NHL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon (Post 15352485)
Here's an interesting thought: Would this list, one constructed by somebody who writes about hockey for a living, have been rejected for submission in the Top 100 project? (Excusing the lack of post-1988 players, of course)

I was going to say no because he excludes pre-NHL and European players, but I also just noticed that he included Lester Patrick. Ok, I understand that he played a big role off the ice, but how do you include Patrick and not Taylor, Lalonde, or Malone?

God Bless Canada 09-04-2008 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon (Post 15352485)
I like the fact that old-timers populate the list simply for the fact that it is tough to find information on some of them. But the rankings of course are just plain silly in some cases. I'll have to dig that book out again, for comic relief if nothing else.

Fischler loves New York, so naturally he gives his Islanders their due. And the list is bursting at the seams with old Rangers and NY Americans, many of which are laughably overrated. Yet somehow Andy Bathgate, the best Ranger since the war at that point (he might still be the best since the war), gets shafted at 94th.

Fischler was always anti-Oilers, but Messier at 34 was high during that time period. Kevin Lowe in the top 100 is baffling. Coffey at 25 may look high, but is certainly justifiable, and Fuhr also made the list. #2 was about as high as you could put Gretzky at that point. Yet Jari Kurri didn't make the list at all?

Fischler obviously thought that Red Kelly made the 50's Wings what they were (with Howe of course), because teammates Terry Sawchuk and Ted Lindsay are way down at 40 and 41.

Red Dutton at 79 probably struck me the most. I knew him more as the one-time league president than an NHL defensmen, and figured it was just Fischler propping up another one of his New York boys. But then I find out he's actually in the HOF as a PLAYER?! Caught off guard by that one for sure.

Here's an interesting thought: Would this list, one constructed by somebody who writes about hockey for a living, have been rejected for submission in the Top 100 project? (Excusing the lack of post-1988 players, of course)

Kyle, that's a great question. If some poster had found this list and went with it spot for spot, I think it would have been rejected. If Stan Fischler started posting here and submitted this list, or one with adjustments considering 20 years of accomplishments, I think it probably would be accepted, simply because it would be hard to say no to a guy who has been watching the game for so long, and has made a good living from watching it.

FF would be smiling, though, to see Gordie at No. 1.

I think part of the reason that Fischler has kept a job for so long is that he is unique. He doesn't base his opinions on what other people think, and frankly he doesn't care what other people think.

I've always thought of Fischler as someone who loves the tough side of the game. So I'm surprised to see guys like Gretzky, Kelly and Boucher, who weren't overly physical, (Kelly was a Gold Gloves winner, but rarely fought) in the top five, and Apps at No. 11.

God Bless Canada 09-04-2008 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pitseleh (Post 15352569)
Don't know if his resume is necessarily HoF worthy, but he was a two time first team all-star and finished top-5 for the Hart twice in the NHL.



I was going to say no because he excludes pre-NHL and European players, but I also just noticed that he included Lester Patrick. Ok, I understand that he played a big role off the ice, but how do you include Patrick and not Taylor, Lalonde, or Malone?

He also had Hobey Baker at No. 64.

MXD 09-04-2008 11:36 PM

Humm.

I don't know what's worst

Murray Murdoch on the list
or
The 4 rank gap between Andy Bathgate and Murray Murdoch.

MXD 09-04-2008 11:38 PM

Also, Red Kelly being superior to Doug Harvey... Well, I wouldn't say unsupportable, but I really don't get it.

Kyle McMahon 09-04-2008 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pitseleh (Post 15352569)
Don't know if his resume is necessarily HoF worthy, but he was a two time first team all-star and finished top-5 for the Hart twice in the NHL.

Fischler didn't say that in the book did he? Because that's incorrect, Dutton was never an all-star, and without checking I highly doubt he was ever a Hart finalist. Looks like his claim to fame was leading the NHL in PIM a couple of times.

pitseleh 09-04-2008 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon (Post 15352754)
Fischler didn't say that in the book did he? Because that's incorrect, Dutton was never an all-star, and without checking I highly doubt he was ever a Hart finalist. Looks like his claim to fame was leading the NHL in PIM a couple of times.

According to Legends of Hockey:

Quote:

He went on to become a two-time Western Canada Hockey League first team all-star and played in the NHL's Ace Bailey Benefit Game in 1934.
http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...io&list=#photo

EDIT: Oops, I meant to specify WCHL all-star and I now realize I didn't. Sorry.

From the Hart voting thread:

Quote:

1935-36
HART: (190)
1. Eddie Shore, Bos D 55
2. Hooley Smith, Mtl M C 39
3. Dave Schriner, NYA LW 38
4. Charlie Conacher, Tor RW 30
5. Red Dutton, NYA D 28

...

Another article in the Globe and Mail about 31/32 didn't have the voting, but said that Morenz won by a single vote over Ching Johnson. Hooley Smith was in third place and Red Dutton in fourth.

Kyle McMahon 09-05-2008 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pitseleh (Post 15352766)
According to Legends of Hockey:



http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...io&list=#photo

EDIT: Oops, I meant to specify WCHL all-star and I now realize I didn't. Sorry.

From the Hart voting thread:

Wow, I stand corrected. A Hart finalist, but not even one of the top four blueliners in either year (no AST)? Hart voting was a little different back then I guess, but still. I guess old Fischler was on to something afterall.

kmad 09-05-2008 12:16 AM

In the book, it mentions his war heroics, his defense partners, his penchant to fight (with an anecdote about his first bout with Sprague Cleghorn), his then-NHL record of 139 penalty minutes in 44 games, and his legacy as an owner-coach.

It doesn't mention any awards or honors.

Fischler doesn't do too good of a job selling this guy.

pitseleh 09-05-2008 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon (Post 15352862)
Wow, I stand corrected. A Hart finalist, but not even one of the top four blueliners in either year (no AST)? Hart voting was a little different back then I guess, but still. I guess old Fischler was on to something afterall.

Yeah, things were different back then. You also see things like Lionel Conacher finish second for the Hart but on the second team for defense.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper 09-05-2008 02:01 AM

Good ol' Fischler. New Yawk represent and Orr stank.

Like clockwork.

BM67 09-05-2008 07:16 AM

His 84 list vs his 88 list:

1984 1988
rank rank Player Years played

1 1 Gordie Howe 1946-1980
10 2 Wayne Gretzky 1978-
2 3 Eddie Shore 1926-1940
3 4 Red Kelly 1947-1977
4 5 Frank Boucher 1921-1944
5 6 Maurice Richard 1942-1960
6 7 Howie Morenz 1923-1937
7 8 Jean Beliveau 1951-1971
9 9 Doug Harvey 1947-1969
11 10 Glenn Hall 1952-1971
12 11 Syl Apps 1936-1948
33 12 Denis Potvin 1973-1988
13 13 Bobby Orr 1966-1979
14 14 Bobby Hull 1957-1980
34 15 Bryan Trottier 1975-
16 16 Bill Cook 1926-1937
17 17 Max Bentley 1940-1954
18 18 Georges Vezina 1917-1926
19 19 King Clancy 1921-1937
-- 20 Mario Lemieux 1984-
20 21 Nels Stewart 1925-1940
69 22 Mike Bossy 1977-1988
21 23 Lester Patrick 1905-1928
22 24 Marcel Pronovost 1950-1970
-- 25 Paul Coffey 1980-
23 26 Toe Blake 1934-1948
24 27 Bernie Geoffrion 1950-1968
26 28 Henri Richard 1955-1975
27 29 Dickie Moore 1951-1968
28 30 Joe Primeau 1928-1936
29 31 Frank Mahovlich 1956-1974
30 32 Milt Schmidt 1937-1955
31 33 Ted Kennedy 1942-1956
-- 34 Mark Messier 1979-
32 35 Charlie Conacher 1929-1941
35 36 Bobby Clarke 1969-1984
36 37 Jacques Plante 1952-1975
37 38 Aurel Joliat 1922-1938
56 39 Marcel Dionne 1971-1989
39 40 Terry Sawchuk 1950-1970
40 41 Ted Lindsay 1944-60,64-65
41 42 Phil Esposito 1963-1981
42 43 Doug Bentley 1939-1954
43 44 Frank Frederickson 1926-1931
44 45 Bill Durnan 1943-1950
45 46 Brad Park 1968-1985
46 47 Turk Broda 1936-1952
47 48 Bryan Hextall 1936-1948
48 49 Tim Horton 1952-1974
49 50 Art Coulter 1931-1942
50 51 Guy Lafleur 1971-84,88-91
51 52 Bill Cowley 1934-1947
52 53 Ching Johnson 1926-1938
53 54 Sweeney Schriner 1934-1946
54 55 Stan Mikita 1958-1980
55 56 Bullet Joe Simpson 1925-1931
57 57 Yvan Cournoyer 1963-1979
-- 58 Denis Savard 1980-
58 59 Sid Abel 1938-43,45-53
59 60 Johnny Bower 1953-1970
60 61 Ken Dryden 1971-73,74-79
62 62 Dit Clapper 1927-1947
64 63 Bill Mosienko 1941-1955
66 64 Hobey Baker 1910-1918
67 65 Black Jack Stewart 1938-1952
68 66 Cooney Weiland 1926-1939
70 67 Dave Keon 1960-1982
71 68 Babe Pratt 1935-1947
72 69 Charlie Gardiner 1927-1934
73 70 Syd Howe 1929-1946
74 71 Dick Irvin 1915-1929
-- 72 Dale Hawerchuk 1981-
76 73 Frank Brimsek 1938-1950
75 74 Duke Keats 1916-1929
-- 75 Billy Smith 1971-1989
-- 76 Peter Stastny 1980-
77 77 Babe Dye 1919-1929
-- 78 Ray Bourque 1979-
79 79 Red Dutton 1926-1936
80 80 Chuck Rayner 1940-1953
-- 81 Bob Gainey 1973-1989
81 82 Tom Johnson 1947-1965
83 83 Bill Quackenbush 1942-1956
85 84 Roy Worters 1926-1937
86 85 Roger Crozier 1963-1977
87 86 Carl Brewer 1957-1980
88 87 Guy Lapointe 1968-1984
-- 88 Kevin Lowe 1979-
-- 89 Grant Fuhr 1981-
-- 90 Mark Howe 1979-
-- 91 Rod Langway 1978-
82 92 Gerry Cheevers 1961-1980
92 93 Hap Day 1924-1938
94 94 Andy Bathgate 1953-1971
95 95 Alex Connell 1924-1937
96 96 Allan Stanley 1948-1969
97 97 Gump Worsley 1952-1974
98 98 Murray Murdoch 1926-1937
99 99 Alex Delvecchio 1950-1974
65 100 Larry Robinson 1972-

Other players in the 1984 top 100
8 -- Fred "Cyclone" Taylor 1908-1923
15 -- Joe Malone 1909-1922
25 -- Newsly Lalonde 1910-1922
38 -- Sprague Cleghorn 1919-1928
61 -- Jack Adams 1917-1927
63 -- Eddie Gerard 1914-1923
78 -- Frank Nighbor 1913-1930
84 -- Clint Benedict 1913-1930
89 -- Didier Pitre 1904-1923
90 -- Sylvio Mantha 1923-1937
91 -- Gordie Drillon 1936-1943
93 -- Bobby Baun 1956-1971
100 -- Pierre Pilote 1955-1969

dcinroc 09-05-2008 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BM67 (Post 15354043)
His 84 list vs his 88 list:

1984 1988
rank rank Player Years played

1 1 Gordie Howe 1946-1980
10 2 Wayne Gretzky 1978-
2 3 Eddie Shore 1926-1940
3 4 Red Kelly 1947-1977
4 5 Frank Boucher 1921-1944
5 6 Maurice Richard 1942-1960
6 7 Howie Morenz 1923-1937
7 8 Jean Beliveau 1951-1971
9 9 Doug Harvey 1947-1969
11 10 Glenn Hall 1952-1971
12 11 Syl Apps 1936-1948
33 12 Denis Potvin 1973-1988
13 13 Bobby Orr 1966-1979
14 14 Bobby Hull 1957-1980
34 15 Bryan Trottier 1975-
16 16 Bill Cook 1926-1937
17 17 Max Bentley 1940-1954
18 18 Georges Vezina 1917-1926
19 19 King Clancy 1921-1937
-- 20 Mario Lemieux 1984-
20 21 Nels Stewart 1925-1940
69 22 Mike Bossy 1977-1988
21 23 Lester Patrick 1905-1928
22 24 Marcel Pronovost 1950-1970
-- 25 Paul Coffey 1980-
23 26 Toe Blake 1934-1948
24 27 Bernie Geoffrion 1950-1968
26 28 Henri Richard 1955-1975
27 29 Dickie Moore 1951-1968
28 30 Joe Primeau 1928-1936
29 31 Frank Mahovlich 1956-1974
30 32 Milt Schmidt 1937-1955
31 33 Ted Kennedy 1942-1956
-- 34 Mark Messier 1979-
32 35 Charlie Conacher 1929-1941
35 36 Bobby Clarke 1969-1984
36 37 Jacques Plante 1952-1975
37 38 Aurel Joliat 1922-1938
56 39 Marcel Dionne 1971-1989
39 40 Terry Sawchuk 1950-1970
40 41 Ted Lindsay 1944-60,64-65
41 42 Phil Esposito 1963-1981
42 43 Doug Bentley 1939-1954
43 44 Frank Frederickson 1926-1931
44 45 Bill Durnan 1943-1950
45 46 Brad Park 1968-1985
46 47 Turk Broda 1936-1952
47 48 Bryan Hextall 1936-1948
48 49 Tim Horton 1952-1974
49 50 Art Coulter 1931-1942
50 51 Guy Lafleur 1971-84,88-91
51 52 Bill Cowley 1934-1947
52 53 Ching Johnson 1926-1938
53 54 Sweeney Schriner 1934-1946
54 55 Stan Mikita 1958-1980
55 56 Bullet Joe Simpson 1925-1931
57 57 Yvan Cournoyer 1963-1979
-- 58 Denis Savard 1980-
58 59 Sid Abel 1938-43,45-53
59 60 Johnny Bower 1953-1970
60 61 Ken Dryden 1971-73,74-79
62 62 Dit Clapper 1927-1947
64 63 Bill Mosienko 1941-1955
66 64 Hobey Baker 1910-1918
67 65 Black Jack Stewart 1938-1952
68 66 Cooney Weiland 1926-1939
70 67 Dave Keon 1960-1982
71 68 Babe Pratt 1935-1947
72 69 Charlie Gardiner 1927-1934
73 70 Syd Howe 1929-1946
74 71 Dick Irvin 1915-1929
-- 72 Dale Hawerchuk 1981-
76 73 Frank Brimsek 1938-1950
75 74 Duke Keats 1916-1929
-- 75 Billy Smith 1971-1989
-- 76 Peter Stastny 1980-
77 77 Babe Dye 1919-1929
-- 78 Ray Bourque 1979-
79 79 Red Dutton 1926-1936
80 80 Chuck Rayner 1940-1953
-- 81 Bob Gainey 1973-1989
81 82 Tom Johnson 1947-1965
83 83 Bill Quackenbush 1942-1956
85 84 Roy Worters 1926-1937
86 85 Roger Crozier 1963-1977
87 86 Carl Brewer 1957-1980
88 87 Guy Lapointe 1968-1984
-- 88 Kevin Lowe 1979-
-- 89 Grant Fuhr 1981-
-- 90 Mark Howe 1979-
-- 91 Rod Langway 1978-
82 92 Gerry Cheevers 1961-1980
92 93 Hap Day 1924-1938
94 94 Andy Bathgate 1953-1971
95 95 Alex Connell 1924-1937
96 96 Allan Stanley 1948-1969
97 97 Gump Worsley 1952-1974
98 98 Murray Murdoch 1926-1937
99 99 Alex Delvecchio 1950-1974
65 100 Larry Robinson 1972-

Other players in the 1984 top 100
8 -- Fred "Cyclone" Taylor 1908-1923
15 -- Joe Malone 1909-1922
25 -- Newsly Lalonde 1910-1922
38 -- Sprague Cleghorn 1919-1928
61 -- Jack Adams 1917-1927
63 -- Eddie Gerard 1914-1923
78 -- Frank Nighbor 1913-1930
84 -- Clint Benedict 1913-1930
89 -- Didier Pitre 1904-1923
90 -- Sylvio Mantha 1923-1937
91 -- Gordie Drillon 1936-1943
93 -- Bobby Baun 1956-1971
100 -- Pierre Pilote 1955-1969

What's strikes me immediately is the rapid elevation of Potvin, Trottier, Bossy and Dionne, plus the inclusion of Bob Gainey. Not cincidentally, all of those players were at or near the ends of their careers in 1988.

But, I really wonder what changed to drop guys Fred Taylor, Joe Malone, Newsy Lalonde and Sprague Cleghorn from the list entirely.

oilsands 09-05-2008 08:07 AM

What I like best is that there are two Saskatchewan born and bred players in the Top 3 of NHL alltime....

NICE!


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:36 PM.

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com, A property of CraveOnline, a division of AtomicOnline LLC ©2009 CraveOnline Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved.