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-   -   Clarke/Flyers a "good" job (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=55529)

Hammerwise 02-25-2004 11:09 AM

Clarke/Flyers a "good" job
 
Flyer fans are a fickle bunch:

so many want to build for the future, but don't ever want to sacrifice the present for that. Over the past 6-7 years the Flyers have and are a joy to watch, they always are a threat, they win alot more than they lose.
So many fans point to NJ and colorado as examples of building from within, but they went through years and years of beatings and lossess, got to draft high and then were able to develop or trade what they drafted: QUE/COL traded sundin, nolan NJ traded Sykora, Shanahan, Muller. Would you as a fan want to sit through 6-7 years of a really bad team, (think of the Penguins here), to build a team, then 3-5 years of slowly getting better (all the while losing a few players to free agency, etc) until they're championship caliber?
If the Flyers are guilty of anything its not being a good enough team or a really bad team, they are consistently top 10. (Don't bring up lindros/Farwell time period)
People are up in arms when they trade mid level prospects, but if they traded a Gagne and picks for a Khabibulin or hasek, wouldn't people scream then?
Yes, people will point to Clarke and his bad signings (Cujo, but he has won alot of his trades. PERIOD.
A while back a poster, Dr Love?, looked at all the players moved in the past 3-4 years and realistically none of them were of a higher caliber than what we have at the moment. Yes, I would love to have Max Q and Woywitka in the system, but would they be helping us this year? Wouldn't we just turn around and trade Nittymaki?
We all want to avoid the 4th-5th seed and know it all might come down to 1-2 pts, in avoiding a tough 1st round series against TOR or OTT, but with the injuries the team has had, Bobby Clarke steps up and makes good moves. People jump on him like a herd.
If he doesn't acquire a better netminder or a replacement center, people scream he doesn't do enough.
If he sold a zamboni, some people would say that he just sold "the best zamboni in the league" and freak out.
Clarke has acquired the best available goalie and best available center in the league and people moan. He has done everything in his power to help them win this year and still remain a force in the future.
They might not win the cup, but after losing in the 2nd round, I would take a close 6 or 7 game series loss in the conference finals.
It seems alot of Flyer fans want to have everything: the grade A prospects and the cup. It just doesn't happen like that. I think the Flyers have done a good job this year.

bennysflyers16 02-25-2004 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerwise
Flyer fans are a fickle bunch:

A-Men, The best post I have read on the flyers board. I have been a fan for 27 years, and you hit the nail on the head. Finally I get to read a post withou freakin out !!!!!!

so many want to build for the future, but don't ever want to sacrifice the present for that. Over the past 6-7 years the Flyers have and are a joy to watch, they always are a threat, they win alot more than they lose.
So many fans point to NJ and colorado as examples of building from within, but they went through years and years of beatings and lossess, got to draft high and then were able to develop or trade what they drafted: QUE/COL traded sundin, nolan NJ traded Sykora, Shanahan, Muller. Would you as a fan want to sit through 6-7 years of a really bad team, (think of the Penguins here), to build a team, then 3-5 years of slowly getting better (all the while losing a few players to free agency, etc) until they're championship caliber?
If the Flyers are guilty of anything its not being a good enough team or a really bad team, they are consistently top 10. (Don't bring up lindros/Farwell time period)
People are up in arms when they trade mid level prospects, but if they traded a Gagne and picks for a Khabibulin or hasek, wouldn't people scream then?
Yes, people will point to Clarke and his bad signings (Cujo, but he has won alot of his trades. PERIOD.
A while back a poster, Dr Love?, looked at all the players moved in the past 3-4 years and realistically none of them were of a higher caliber than what we have at the moment. Yes, I would love to have Max Q and Woywitka in the system, but would they be helping us this year? Wouldn't we just turn around and trade Nittymaki?
We all want to avoid the 4th-5th seed and know it all might come down to 1-2 pts, in avoiding a tough 1st round series against TOR or OTT, but with the injuries the team has had, Bobby Clarke steps up and makes good moves. People jump on him like a herd.
If he doesn't acquire a better netminder or a replacement center, people scream he doesn't do enough.
If he sold a zamboni, some people would say that he just sold "the best zamboni in the league" and freak out.
Clarke has acquired the best available goalie and best available center in the league and people moan. He has done everything in his power to help them win this year and still remain a force in the future.
They might not win the cup, but after losing in the 2nd round, I would take a close 6 or 7 game series loss in the conference finals.
It seems alot of Flyer fans want to have everything: the grade A prospects and the cup. It just doesn't happen like that. I think the Flyers have done a good job this year.


Teezax 02-25-2004 11:24 AM

I agree, I can accept the fact that we aren't champions but we are competetive and one of the more feared teams in the league. Clarke's been good in his stay as GM, the only mistake apart from the Oates deal, was the signing of the Beezer over Cujo, but you can't blame him....he rolled the dice. Just getting Pitkanen for Fedotenko makes up for every bad thing he's done.

Toonces 02-25-2004 11:44 AM

While I don't agree with every statement you made Hammer, I agree with you on premise. The Flyers, over the last 10 years have been an exelent team, but that isn't enough anymore.

The Flyers have to win the Cup.

I really wish 97 never happened because it got everything blown out of proportion and the bar was set too high. The Flyers "year" was 1999-2000. That team had everything, but threw it all away in three games. What IS amazing however is how this team has recovered from the entire Lindros debacle.

I don't have a problem trading youth for a cup. I just want a Cup.

GoneFullHextall 02-25-2004 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toonces
While I don't agree with every statement you made Hammer, I agree with you on premise. The Flyers, over the last 10 years have been an exelent team, but that isn't enough anymore.

The Flyers have to win the Cup.

I really wish 97 never happened because it got everything blown out of proportion and the bar was set too high. The Flyers "year" was 1999-2000. That team had everything, but threw it all away in three games. What IS amazing however is how this team has recovered from the entire Lindros debacle.

I don't have a problem trading youth for a cup. I just want a Cup.

I dont care what anyone says. If Lindros isnt cleared to play before game 5 of the 2000 ECF. we win that game and beat the Stars for the Cup. As soon as Lindros was cleared you could see the "Eric is back to take us to the promised land so we dont have to work as hard as a team look"

it took me quite awhile to recover from that debacle, that totally pissed me off, the Preems goal against the Pens in the 5th OT, the Boucher save, all that had me thinking this is THE YEAR.

Dr Love 02-25-2004 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerwise
Clarke has acquired the best available goalie and best available center in the league and people moan.

I agree with a lot of what you said (BTW yes that was me that did that post), but on Burke I disagree. What upsets the fans about Burke is A) how he got Burke, and B) that it's Sean Burke. If he got, say, Manny Fernandez, then the fans would have a different reaction, I don't think it's a catch-22 situation, we knew that the Flyers needed a goalie for the short term, we just didn't want Burke. And then Hitchcock completely ignores Niittymaki, and that got under the fans' skin.

tytech 02-25-2004 12:16 PM

We went through bad years and never got anything. We missed the playoffs five years stright in the late 80's early nineties. We have nothing to show for it. You use Jersey and Colorado as examples of struggling to get to where they have gotten but when they hit rock bottom they went nowehere but uphill. Philly has gone up and down and up and down with nothing to show for the sacrifices.

Coburnfan05 02-25-2004 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Love
I agree with a lot of what you said (BTW yes that was me that did that post), but on Burke I disagree. What upsets the fans about Burke is A) how he got Burke, and B) that it's Sean Burke. If he got, say, Manny Fernandez, then the fans would have a different reaction, I don't think it's a catch-22 situation, we knew that the Flyers needed a goalie for the short term, we just didn't want Burke. And then Hitchcock completely ignores Niittymaki, and that got under the fans' skin.

Yes Yes, I would have perferred Manny over Burke.

Clarkie has made some great moves (the rapeage of the Habs) and bad ones (A.Oates) but the thing I like about him is he is proactive. He doesn't generally make a deal for the sake of it but when there is a need he goes out a fills it. For people who don't like Clarke, just imagine Mike Milburry as our GM. ;)

VaFlyer 02-25-2004 01:31 PM

You know, I think we all have to give Clarke and Hitch some credit. This team has had major injuries this year that I think only LA can match. 2 All-Star centers, our #1 goalie, the retirement of the backup goalie due to vertigo, our #1 defenseman, not to mention all of the little nick-nack injuries to Brashear, Fedoruk, Ragnarsson, Vandermeer, Seidenberg, etc. How many teams would still be #1 (despite teams having games in hand) at this point in the season with that kind of injury history?

Boston would have to lose: Thornton, Rolston, Raycroft, Potvin, Sean O'donnell, as well as have small injuries to Slegr, McGillis and McCarthy.

Toronto would have to lose: Sundin, Nieuwendyk, Belfour, Kidd and McCabe as well as have small injuries to 2 other defenseman and Domi.

New Jersey would have to lose: Gomez, Brylin, Brodeur, Schwabb and Stevens as well as injuries to 2 other defenseman and Turner Stevenson.

Ottawa would have to lose: Bonk, Fisher, Lalime, Prusek, and Chara as well as injuries to 2 other defenseman and Neil.

Now where would those teams be if that had happened??

FearTheFlyers 02-25-2004 01:42 PM

Zhamnov is better than Lang?

Toonces 02-25-2004 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VaFlyer
Now where would those teams be if that had happened??

Nowhere most likely. If this Flyer squad is anything, it's resiliant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneSpeedOnly
Zhamnov is better than Lang?

No, but lang would have cost ALOT. Washington actually WANTS to rebuild, Chicago only acts like it unfortuantly.

FearTheFlyers 02-25-2004 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toonces



No, but lang would have cost ALOT. Washington actually WANTS to rebuild, Chicago only acts like it unfortuantly.

Yes but he said we acquired the best avalable center, which is untrue.

Bob Clarke Fan Club 02-25-2004 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneSpeedOnly
Yes but he said we acquired the best avalable center, which is untrue.





Depends on how you read into it...Careerwise I'd take Zhamnov, despite Langs great season this year...but I can see your point.

Dr Love 02-25-2004 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneSpeedOnly
Yes but he said we acquired the best avalable center, which is untrue.

Zhamnov is probably the second best available center, but the best availabe option as a center. Lang makes more and has 2 or 3 more years left on his deal, Zhamnov is a free agent. Thus, it not only costs less to get him, but the flexibility for whatever may come next season is key as well.

FearTheFlyers 02-25-2004 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Love
Zhamnov is probably the second best available center, but the best availabe option as a center. Lang makes more and has 2 or 3 more years left on his deal, Zhamnov is a free agent. Thus, it not only costs less to get him, but the flexibility for whatever may come next season is key as well.


I'm not disagreeing with you, just wondering if he should make what he says a little clearer.

Pantokrator 02-26-2004 07:36 AM

Hammerwise, you describe me!

Actually, I wouldn't mind the team stinking for many years if I saw that they had direction and were improving. I can live with a bad team with a plan, unlike those Phillies Baseball teams of the late 80's. I think I live in fear of getting rid of a prospect that will end up some how being a superstar. As far as I know, with the exception of Forsberg, this hasn't happened, at least with Clarke. Oulette may be, but I don't know. Being a Philadelphia fan, I am a pessimist, seeing my teams choke and underachieve (overall: I know there are flashes of light every now and then), therefore I view everything in a negative light. Hence, I love prospects because they haven't let me down...yet. I love a player like Ruzcika, because I can imagine he may one day be a 40 goal scorer, even though he may never even crack the roster. SO when Clarke trades these young kids, I think he is always trading away possible superstars, when in actuality, he has really made good trades (except Oates).

That explains my occasional frustration with Clarke, but 9 out of 10 times, I see it his way in the end.

Hammerwise 02-27-2004 04:22 AM

As a long time reader, but rarely a poster, and as I live overseas (a live game starts at 00:30 over here, (my VCR feels the pain), I can be a little more objective.

I love the team and want that cup, but not at the cost of sucking over a period of time. Unlike Colorado/NJ we were never to have those building years: drafting high, de4veloping top prospects. Why? The Farwell Lindros trade.
We gave up how many high level prospects: Forsberg, Simon as well as some very good NHL filler: Duchesne, Huffman and a goalie, Hextall, who we had no suitable replacement for (Soderstrom/Roussel?)
I guess we didn't sucked enough in those early nineties, (as i RECALL the team was around or just below .500), to rebuild fully.
Clarke has been fairly proactive and his drafting record is one of the league's better ones. When he has made mistakes:
Beezer over Cujo (Beezer took a team of stiffs to the finals on his back and Cujo is just as unproven finals-wise as he was then) But that was a close call.
Grabbing Gratton for 5 1sts, Gratton was 2nd-3rd yr in league, but was big and had just scored 62 pts. If he had progressed as expected he and Lindros would have been killers down the middle. To Clarkes credit he went back and undid the 5 1sts for a turnover prone Dykhius and slumping Renberg. (Renberg has never been the same since then)
Oates, but then that was a have to move. If Clarke like this year hadn't made a move, he would've been roasted. I agree the price was high, but at that time I thought the move would help the team take the next step.

I like the fact that the team does not have the deep lows that some franchises have had, and overall when the team fails people should criticize and moan, but when it comes to the teams overall mission: win now and win later, who can dispute it?

bradythedevilsfan 02-27-2004 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerwise
I love the team and want that cup, but not at the cost of sucking over a period of time. Unlike Colorado/NJ we were never to have those building years: drafting high, de4veloping top prospects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerwise
I like the fact that the team does not have the deep lows that some franchises have had, and overall when the team fails people should criticize and moan, but when it comes to the teams overall mission: win now and win later, who can dispute it?

Obviously, from my username, you can see that I am a Devils fan. So before you guys immediately shout me down, let me ask a question. Do you guys not remember the period from 1989-1994 where you didn't make the playoffs and were the doormats of the Patrick/Atlantic Division? You say that the Devils went through "building years" of drafting high and developing top prospects, but what you're conveniently forgetting is that they were AN EXPANSION TEAM. And YOUR team was very instrumental in the building of Quebec/Colorado. And since we're on the subject of drafting high and developing top prospects, how was it that the Flyers were able to get Lindros? In 1991, they made a big trade with Quebec using Forsberg (along with Ron Hextall, Steve Duchesne, Kerry Huffman, Chris Simon, and Mike Ricci), right? But how was Philly able to draft a player of Forsbergís talent? They were a basement team that was drafting high. For example, their draft Picks for these years: 1990-4th Pick Mike Ricci, 1991-6th Forsberg, 1992-7th Ryan Sittler. Thatís 3 straight seasons with top-ten picks. The following seasons, I believe, they had given away their picks so they didnít draft in the top round the following two seasons. So you can talk about the Devils and Avs having building years, but itís not accurate to say that the Flyers havenít.

Hammerwise 02-27-2004 10:39 AM

Hey Devils fan, good post. But maybe you should read the entire post. The flyers did draft high in the 89-94 period, but how many of those high picks went for Lindros. Thats the point. They didn't develop the team, they traded the high picks (forsberg,, simon, ricci) and put Lindros in. The Devils took alot longer and no shortcuts. These moves were made by Russ F not Bobby Clarke.
Essentially some Flyer fans want to retain every single prospect and pick and develop it as did NJ, but we have never (not since our expansion) had the solid youth or picks to try that. If I was a GM I'd build a team just as NJ did. They have become champs because they are a TEAM.
A good parallel to the Flyers at the moment is NYR. They want to rebuild, but with what? They have very few prospects and picks. They have high priced players, nobody wants. And what they can trade is not enough to rebuild an entire team.

The Flyers can't give up the chase and drop their current players so they are forced to make a move here or there to upgrade. And those moves cost players, picks, or prospects.

bradythedevilsfan 02-27-2004 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerwise
Hey Devils fan, good post. But maybe you should read the entire post. The flyers did draft high in the 89-94 period, but how many of those high picks went for Lindros. Thats the point. They didn't develop the team, they traded the high picks (forsberg,, simon, ricci) and put Lindros in. The Devils took a lot longer and no shortcuts. These moves were made by Russ F not Bobby Clarke.
Essentially some Flyer fans want to retain every single prospect and pick and develop it as did NJ, but we have never (not since our expansion) had the solid youth or picks to try that. If I was a GM I'd build a team just as NJ did. They have become champs because they are a TEAM.
A good parallel to the Flyers at the moment is NYR. They want to rebuild, but with what? They have very few prospects and picks. They have high priced players, nobody wants. And what they can trade is not enough to rebuild an entire team.

The Flyers can't give up the chase and drop their current players so they are forced to make a move here or there to upgrade. And those moves cost players, picks, or prospects.

I can't believe that I'm doing this, but I agree with you!! (it's a very infrequent occurrence for me to actually speak with a phan who isn't just spewing "Debbies Suck!" "Yeah, well we're in first!" and so forth.)

Anyway, yes. The Devs have done a lot to build their team from within, and it also helps that they have scouts who are incredible at noticing talent that other teams seem to overlook (Brodeur, Rafalski, Madden, Elias, Gomez, Sykora, the list goes on). It really is strange to look at teams like the Rangers and, at least partially, the Flyers who do a lot of trading to build their team. I don't necessarily think that it's a bad strategy (with the exception of the Oates trade--which was just an utter debacle), I'm just not used to it after watching the way Lou has built this team.

Hammerwise 02-27-2004 11:06 AM

Believe me, if we had Brodeur we wouldn't have to make so many other moves!!!!

bradythedevilsfan 02-27-2004 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerwise
Believe me, if we had Brodeur we wouldn't have to make so many other moves!!!!

I believe you.


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